International perspective on guns..from some people I know...

[Bill Nance]

I had an interesting interchange with some friends in Europe recently. I posted a pic of my new 556 for my Swiss friends to look at . (I was teasing them about picatinny rails. Had to say something, since they have the full-auto version)

From Australia: "Coming from a gun-free (well, almost; there is of course an illegal gun market and farmers and police are allowed guns but that's about it) culture those guns look profoundly f***ed up."

From the UK: "It always confused me why people want to own guns which are designed specifically to kill other people. Here in the UK I'm pretty sure anything any more military than a 12-bore shotgun or at a pinch, a small caliber hunting rifle, is strictly illegal.

5.56mm rounds are designed to kill people, not animals. 9mm rounds are designed to kill people, not animals. Yet from what I can tell you can walk into a store in the US and buy a crapload of this ammunition, without being asked why the hell you want to buy ammo designed to kill people. Having used these weapons personally (just on a firing range in the Army), I can honestly say the power of them is frightening. You see the puff of dust behind the target before you hear the bang. And the thought of what that'd do to someone standing between you and the target is pretty horrible. As for what it'd do to a boar, well, you'd better hit him in the head, because you'd ruin all the good meat hitting it in the flank.

Damn crazy yanks."

Another (a lady friend of mine from years back) from the UK: "I'm with XXX and XXX - I just dont get it."

From Switzerland: "Guess what, here in Switzerland you're forced to keep your Military Rifle along with 50 Bullets at home, till your done with your Service. Btw Bill, your SIG 556 looks like the little Brother of my SIG 550 http://www.sportschutter.nl/Wsig 550 cal 223 compleet.jpg

Another from New Zealand: "Oh, the good old university days... I guess if burglars knew that every 2nd home had a loaded automatic weapon, they would either break in with a gun and kill you (like in the USA) or just not break in knowing they might die (like somewhere else I guess) Still, its great fun taking a 22 out and shooting the magpies (pied crows to some) that attacked our horses and for the rabbit infestations I guess Tasmanian girls need them to keep their brothers off... Scared the f*** out of me when I was walking around Jerusalem, people sitting there drinking in the street, with a Steyr over their shoulder or out at dinner with their gun.

MY RESPONSE: (bear in mind, these are very long-term friends, so I'm not willing to get into a flame war and destroy a friendship over a disagreement)
"XXX, you have an irrational fear of an inanimate object. Israel, which has private gun ownership bordering on universal, has one of the world's lowest murder rates. Switzerland, last time I checked isn't exactly Dodge City either.

One of the reasons the crime rate is so high in the U.S. is that where crime is worst, they also have the most restrictive gun laws. (Washington DC).
Everywhere in the U.S. gun-laws are less restrictive, there are proportionally smaller crime rates.The idea that guns cause crime or murder is a myth. Ask the stabbing victims in London how much safer they were because they couldn't have a gun to defend themselves.

As of 2002 the most dangerous cities in the country were as follows: (1) Washington, DC (2) Detroit (3) Baltimore (4) Memphis (5) Chicago (6) Philadelphia (7) Columbus 18.1 (8) Milwaukee (9) Los Angeles (10) Dallas. Every one of those cities with the exception of Dallas has a virtual ban on private handgun ownership."

Another response from the UK: "The problem is, you can look at a statistic like that and say 'omg, tight gun control = high murder rate'. But what if, say, people in those cities eat less peas than in the other cities, you could equally argue that eating plenty of peas reduces crime, so we should all be stocking up on peas for the sake of national security. Both are ridiculous. The village of Ilkley in Yorkshire has a pretty low gun-related murder rate and you go to prison for a really long time there if you so much as pretend to own a gun. These statistics are created and highlighted to demonise gun control laws. The fact remains, nobody outside the police or military has the need to own weapons which are designed specifically to kill people. So it makes absolutely no sense to allow people to own them."

From Belgium: "I think mainly because they enforced it when the ship had allready sunk? to each his own froggie, but I live here in belgium. we have lotsa laws and regulations about guns. It's not easy to get one, and you'd have to have a damn good reason to get one. Fact is, we have maybe 1 (?) gun related issue every few months or so, if that. as for the cultural difference? I'd agree. There's a huge cultural difference between most european countries and the USA. Definatly not saying we're doing it the right way, but I do feel safer." On a side note, how the hell can you hold a gun with them flippers!" (My nick on this forum is frogman... long story.

And my final response:
"I'm glad you trust your government to be forever benign. Since you are now totally powerless to resist them.

That's the reason the U.S. has a personal right to keep and bear arms enshrined in our constitution. We remember when the government tried to enforce tyranny by first disarming us.

And no, I'm not trying to demonize gun control laws. The point I'm making is that if gun control works, then how come the cities with the strictest laws are virtually always the most dangerous?

Of course the UK is not the U.S. I totally understand that, and I wouldn't mind living in the UK for a while. Nice place and as you all know I like it there.

So perhaps the issue is seen differently by geographical location/culture/history. I think we'll have to agree to disagree. As for me, the government can take my guns "from my cold dead hands." It's kept us free for 230 years, I'm not surrendering my rights without a fight."

Just thought I'd post the interchange here. It's always interesting to know how the rest of the world ticks, even if they are wrong.

 

[USMA-82]

Good to see the different perspective, Bill - thanks for posting.

Some people just grow up as sheep, live as sheep, and die as sheep. If they never see the wolf in their lifetimes, all is right with the world. The one time they do, they're dead.

I prefer to stay prepared for the "one time."

 

[Jose]

This fear of "military boolets" designed to "kill people" is so completely beyond my understanding that I just cannot wrap my head around it.

What if I shot this UK peckerhead with a 7 mm Remington Magnum? Or how about a .300 Weatherby? Would he feel better? Let's go to handguns. OMG 9mm!!!! He, let's just shoot him with a .44 Remington Magnum, since that's not a police or military round. I bet it will hurt less......

And his knowledge of a bullet's effect on game is woefully lacking as well. I bet that tool cannot honestly claim one single animal kill with a firearm in his life.

 

[m44]

I liked the reply from switzerland .

 

[calsdad]

The next time you are talking with these people you might want to interject a more historical perspective. The reasoning behind the 2nd amendment to our Constitution was NOT to keep crime in control. It was to keep the govt. under control - and provide for militia defense of the country. Of all the people on that forum (except the Swiss) - every single one of them is living in a country that had a direct reason to have a 2nd Amendment like protection for the ownership of firearms within living memory.

Belgium was invaded by the Germans during WW2. In fact I have read some history that suggests that one of the reasons for the push for gun control in Europe was that during WW1 as the German army marched thru Belgian territory there was significant resistance by Belgian civilians thru direct fire at German soldiers. The UK was almost invaded by the Germans during WW2 - and had to beg for rifles from US civilians to re-arm their "Home Guard" after pushing serious gun control earlier in the century.

New Zealand and Australia were both threatened with Japanese invasion during WW2 - and could have used a civilian militia to defend themselves.

Go read www.jpfo.org and their documentation on how genocide has always been preceded by firearms confiscation - and remind your European friends how the roundup of Jews was directly preceded by gun control. You can also remind them of the words of Solzenitzin about how the terror that the Communists inflicted on Russia might have been prevented if people had fought back - there have been German Jews who have made the same comments about how fighting back against Hitler would have changed the course of history. Europeans seem to like to get all high and mighty on their soapbox talking about how they feel so safe without their guns - yet in the last century Europe taken as a whole has been responsible for more murder and mayhem on a grand scale than any other area of the world. And much of that can be directly attributable to their attitudes about defending themselves.

And the Swiss are a remarkable contrast. They have stayed a republic for 600 years - they are peaceful, they are prosperous (although they did have tough times in the past) - and they avoided the fate of so many other countries during WW2 by avoiding getting invaded by Hitler - and this can DIRECTLY be attributed to their national pasttime of shooting and firearms ownership.

During WW2 the Swiss mobilized a huge proportion of their population - they were essentially a completely mobilized nation. The commander of the Swiss Armed forces actually issued an order that said if an order to surrender comes from the Swiss govt. - ignore it and fight on.

There are two books that I have read about the Swiss in WW2 - and many of the lessons in them should be studied and remembered by all those people who think that getting rid of guns will magically make the world a great place.

http://www.amazon.com/Target-Switze...r_1_21?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1227701479&sr=1-21


http://www.amazon.com/SWISS-NAZIS-Alpine-Republic-Survived/dp/1932033424/ref=pd_sim_b_1

 

[calsdad]

One other thing I always find funny about so many people who are opposed to guns - is that they have no problems with going out and shooting animals.

The one reply about having great fun going out shooting crows and rabbits is typical of these types of people. They get all up in arms about somebody owning a gun that is meant to shoot a person - whether or not you or the gun in question ever has - or ever will - shoot a person, and in the same breath they will rave about blowing away rabbits who are eating their lettuce patch.

I have noticed both on this forums and on some other ones I have visited - that the people most likely to own serious military pattern rifles and such - are also less likely to be hunters and more likely to be animal lovers - of all kinds. I love shoving that little fact down gun haters throats - especially when I hear them pipe up about blowing away the deer that was eating their rose bushes.

 

[JimB]

NRA news

the NRA news has discussed and interviewed folks for Australia and the UK
and it don't look that great over there.

May just be that none of these folks are aware of whats going on,

or have never been at the wrong end of a gun barrel...???

JimB

 

[MikeH]

I recently spent a week on an 18 passenger live aboard dive boat. Small boat, lots of time for talk. There was one man from Holland. The idea of self defense was alien to him. Try as I could to press him with situations where self defense would, not only, be justifiable; but a natural response, he just didn't get it. Questions like 'What if they break into your home at night?' Give them what they want would be the response. 'What if they come to take your life?' A puzzled look and a shrug of the shoulders.
He was as bewildered by my aggressive attitude as I was of his pacifism.

 

[BOBKATT]

I'd tell the guy from the UK that here in America we keep firearms in case some of those shitbag Brits try to take them away again.

 

[Pilgrim]

Seems that the foreign sheep always call on us to get them out trouble when the wolf comes knocking on their doors.

And we always do.

 

[doobie]

Next time ask them how the feel the Jews in Germany and Poland felt after the Nazi's took away their firearms; just before starting the concentration camps.

 

[JRyan]

the eating peas argument is such a logical train wreck it's hard to fathom how someone could see it as valid.

Fact + fact + wildly misinterpreted statistical concept = unicorn.

Great. the sad thing is that many would see that as valid.

 

[Alien]

I agree with the stricter gun laws=higher crime. I also know we incarcerate more people than most other civilized nations/countries. But I attribute a lot of our violence on a few things.

I was involved in a court case where I was the plaintiff. I sat in a city court for a few days and in those three days I heard cases from simple assault to attempted murder. In those three days I did not see one person sent to jail. They were all given probation, suspended sentences, and fines??? There is very little punishment for crime in this country! I am an electrician and have been involved in wiring 3 courthouses in the last 5 years, prisons-none??

The USAs crime problem is a lot more involved than just guns/gun control! With the crime problem and punishment or lack there of I am glad I have the constitutional right to arms to defend myself against all enemies, foreign and domestic!!

 

[FunYun]

I recently spent a week on an 18 passenger live aboard dive boat. Small boat, lots of time for talk. There was one man from Holland. The idea of self defense was alien to him. Try as I could to press him with situations where self defense would, not only, be justifiable; but a natural response, he just didn't get it. Questions like 'What if they break into your home at night?' Give them what they want would be the response. 'What if they come to take your life?' A puzzled look and a shrug of the shoulders.
He was as bewildered by my aggressive attitude as I was of his pacifism.

It's an assumption that people will only choose violence, if that is whats required to get what they want. What they don't realize is that violence is required to get what they want, no witnesses.

These people are everywhere. They are the ones who don't want confrontation in school or in sports(no grades or scores). They don't want there to be winners, cause that means there are losers. If there aren't any losers, then theres no need for confrontation, cause everyone is equal.

They forget that the wolves don't care about winners, losers, or violence. They just care that when they're hungry, there are sheep to eat.

 

[JRyan]

It's an assumption that people will only choose violence, if that is whats required to get what they want. What they don't realize is that violence is required to get what they want, no witnesses.

These people are everywhere. They are the ones who don't want confrontation in school or in sports(no grades or scores). They don't want there to be winners, cause that means there are losers. If there aren't any losers, then theres no need for confrontation, cause everyone is equal.

They forget that the wolves don't care about winners, losers, or violence. They just care that when they're hungry, there are sheep to eat.

very true.

 

[pipmaster1971]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. The thing you have to bear in mind is that through their entire lives their only associations with firearms are negative. In the movies and on the news, they are all negative. It's little wonder people grow up with such negative feelings towards them. It's also a problem in big US cities too.

 

[Bill Nance]

The next time you are talking with these people you might want to interject a more historical perspective. The reasoning behind the 2nd amendment to our Constitution was NOT to keep crime in control. It was to keep the govt. under control - and provide for militia defense of the country. Of all the people on that forum (except the Swiss) - every single one of them is living in a country that had a direct reason to have a 2nd Amendment like protection for the ownership of firearms within living memory.

Belgium was invaded by the Germans during WW2. In fact I have read some history that suggests that one of the reasons for the push for gun control in Europe was that during WW1 as the German army marched thru Belgian territory there was significant resistance by Belgian civilians thru direct fire at German soldiers. The UK was almost invaded by the Germans during WW2 - and had to beg for rifles from US civilians to re-arm their "Home Guard" after pushing serious gun control earlier in the century.

New Zealand and Australia were both threatened with Japanese invasion during WW2 - and could have used a civilian militia to defend themselves.

Go read www.jpfo.org and their documentation on how genocide has always been preceded by firearms confiscation - and remind your European friends how the roundup of Jews was directly preceded by gun control. You can also remind them of the words of Solzenitzin about how the terror that the Communists inflicted on Russia might have been prevented if people had fought back - there have been German Jews who have made the same comments about how fighting back against Hitler would have changed the course of history. Europeans seem to like to get all high and mighty on their soapbox talking about how they feel so safe without their guns - yet in the last century Europe taken as a whole has been responsible for more murder and mayhem on a grand scale than any other area of the world. And much of that can be directly attributable to their attitudes about defending themselves.

And the Swiss are a remarkable contrast. They have stayed a republic for 600 years - they are peaceful, they are prosperous (although they did have tough times in the past) - and they avoided the fate of so many other countries during WW2 by avoiding getting invaded by Hitler - and this can DIRECTLY be attributed to their national pasttime of shooting and firearms ownership.

During WW2 the Swiss mobilized a huge proportion of their population - they were essentially a completely mobilized nation. The commander of the Swiss Armed forces actually issued an order that said if an order to surrender comes from the Swiss govt. - ignore it and fight on.

There are two books that I have read about the Swiss in WW2 - and many of the lessons in them should be studied and remembered by all those people who think that getting rid of guns will magically make the world a great place.

http://www.amazon.com/Target-Switze...r_1_21?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1227701479&sr=1-21


http://www.amazon.com/SWISS-NAZIS-Alpine-Republic-Survived/dp/1932033424/ref=pd_sim_b_1

I have done so, in a very gentle way. Again these are friends of mine and to them the whole gun thing is very foreign and strange. But I surprisingly seem to have made some headway with some of them. ...Stay tuned.

 

[TomH]

So what you're saying is the only one with brains is from Switzerland? Just confirms what we already knew about Europe and Australia as a whole.

 

[caboose84]

Not all Aussies have negative opinions of guns. I worked 17 weeks in the outback last year, met a few guys who enjoyed shooting rifles and shotguns. One guy was planning a trip to the USA for a wedding and was hoping to be able to shoot a pistol, because he wasn't allowed to in Aus.

 

[Bill Nance]

So what you're saying is the only one with brains is from Switzerland? Just confirms what we already knew about Europe and Australia as a whole.

Gee that's a good response. Anyone who disagrees with you is stupid.
How ya doin' with that argument? Changing lots of people's minds?

 

[Negotiator]

I'd tell the guy from the UK that here in America we keep firearms in case some of those shitbag Brits try to take them away again.

Well, speaking as one of those "shitbag Brits" who is now an American by choice, I have plenty of friends who were very into what limited types of firearms we were allowed to have in the '70's and '80's in England. Many have come to stay for visits and always ask if they can go shooting at the range. Some Brits have never been exposed to firearms, so have no understanding and just swallow the Government line about guns = bad so ban them.

 

[calsdad]

I have done so, in a very gentle way. Again these are friends of mine and to them the whole gun thing is very foreign and strange. But I surprisingly seem to have made some headway with some of them. ...Stay tuned.

As friends the best way you can get them to understand is to educate them. I started a while back sending out articles and news snippets to a bunch of friends and co-workers. Over time - it does have an effect. Now I hear some of these same people arguing some of the same points I have been trying to make for years.

Sometimes you just have to lay the seed. And if the right rainstorm comes along - the plant will grow. We think we have it bad here in MA with all the liberalism - most of these friends are European, they live in the birthplace of liberalism.

There was a reason why our forefathers left and came here.

 

[Bill Nance]

UPDATE:

Another Swiss friend:"What you say is correct Bill, Switzerland does not have a Crime Problem. We had like 2 Incidents in the last 5 Years, where a Military Weapon was misused. Both of the "Shooters" were so determined about what their doing, that getting another Weapon wouldn't have been an obstacle."

And from someone in the UK: "Michael Moore had a point about gun controls. Its not the gun that kills a person, regardless of its purpose, its a person that kills. Canada has higher gun ownership per capita and yet has a massively small gun problem compared to the USA, were you can own a gun when in a controlled militia."

I corrected the militia thing as well as calling Moore a lying lunatic. But at least he's grasped that guns/= higher murder rates.

 

[maee]

In reality, the 5.56 mm round was designed specifically to NOT kill people. They wanted a high velocity, small, FMJ bullet that would make a clean hole. From a military standpoint, its better to injure than kill because it requires more resources to care for an injured soldier. It also satisfies the Geneva convention.

 

[Jose]

In reality, the 5.56 mm round was designed specifically to NOT kill people. They wanted a high velocity, small, FMJ bullet that would make a clean hole. From a military standpoint, its better to injure than kill because it requires more resources to care for an injured soldier. It also satisfies the Geneva convention.

There has never been a military requirement such as the one you claim exsits for the 5.56x45.

 

[BOBKATT]

Some Brits have never been exposed to firearms, so have no understanding and just swallow the Government line about guns = bad so ban them.

Sorry, not buying the excuse. I've never been exposed to dog racing, but I still didn't buy the bullshit about banning it. I've never been exposed to marijuana, but I still don't believe the bullshit about banning it. See where I'm going? Swalling bullshit makes you a shitbag. If your not a shitbag you choke on it and spit it up.

 

[Bob P]

In reality, the 5.56 mm round was designed specifically to NOT kill people. They wanted a high velocity, small, FMJ bullet that would make a clean hole. From a military standpoint, its better to injure than kill because it requires more resources to care for an injured soldier. It also satisfies the Geneva convention.

Please provide some documentation for that claim (that the 5.56 was designed specifically not to kill). My understand it that's an urban myth.

 

[Bill Nance]

Sorry, not buying the excuse. I've never been exposed to dog racing, but I still didn't buy the bullshit about banning it. I've never been exposed to marijuana, but I still don't believe the bullshit about banning it. See where I'm going? Swalling bullshit makes you a shitbag. If your not a shitbag you choke on it and spit it up.

I would suggest if you haven't done so, living in a country with a vastly different culture for a while. Culture, history, personal experience and propaganda influences opinions and ways of looking at the world. And it's a rare person who, with no real external input, sees things totally different from his fellows.

In the USA we have a long and proud tradition of distrusting government, being ready to defend ourselves etc. In Britain, the libertarian ideal is virtually non-existent and has been since at least 1975 when I first started travelling there.

It's similar all over Europe, but the UK is probably the worst and getting worse by the year.

And calling people "shitbags" is no way to win people over to your viewpoint. It is, however, a very good way to alienate people.

 

[Bill Nance]

As friends the best way you can get them to understand is to educate them. I started a while back sending out articles and news snippets to a bunch of friends and co-workers. Over time - it does have an effect. Now I hear some of these same people arguing some of the same points I have been trying to make for years.

Sometimes you just have to lay the seed. And if the right rainstorm comes along - the plant will grow.

Right you are. My wife and I are working on getting our NRA training certs as we speak. And we have an open invitation to all our co-workers to come shoot. So far, one taker, though we've yet to arrange a time.

If we can refrain from alienating people and simply using calm, rational facts to expound our position, we will win. The facts are on our side, people just need to be made aware of them.

 

[BOBKATT]

I would suggest if you haven't done so, living in a country with a vastly different culture for a while. Culture, history, personal experience and propaganda influences opinions and ways of looking at the world. And it's a rare person who, with no real external input, sees things totally different from his fellows.

In the USA we have a long and proud tradition of distrusting government, being ready to defend ourselves etc. In Britain, the libertarian ideal is virtually non-existent and has been since at least 1975 when I first started travelling there.

It's similar all over Europe, but the UK is probably the worst and getting worse by the year.

And calling people "shitbags" is no way to win people over to your viewpoint. It is, however, a very good way to alienate people.

I'm not interested in living with another culture that I am aware of. You can keep it. Oh and alienating a shitbag by calling them a shitbag is fine with me. If you would like to strip me of my basic human right of self preservation you are a shitbag and I am not sorry to call you one, nor do I have any inclination to pursuade you or make you my friend. I am secure in my right to keep and bear arms, the Bill Of Rights says it's so, and we have that Bill Of Rights to ensure it is so. Therefore I need not the alliance of those who are determined to strip me of that right, not so long as I am determined to use it anyway.