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jhrosier said:Ohhh, [roll]
So you're one of those guys who'd rather have a dozen nice guns than a hundred interesting ones?
(sniffs)
jhrosier said:Ohhh, [roll]
So you're one of those guys who'd rather have a dozen nice guns than a hundred interesting ones?
[lol] [lol] [lol]
jhrosier said:Speaking of AR's, my local FFL recently started offering Bushmaster uppers and lowers seperately.
Nick's Sport Shop, Palmer, just off Mass Pike Exit 8.C-pher said:jhrosier said:Speaking of AR's, my local FFL recently started offering Bushmaster uppers and lowers seperately.
You just teasing us, or are you going to tell us who that might be?
Geeze [roll]
dreppucci007 said:Now, that's far from true. All I'm saying is that before joining up at NES, I barely knew what an AR was. Yes, I'm acting like a kid in Toys R Us seeing the new MP15 "ooo, I want one" in a whiney tone. So what? That doesn't mean I'd automatically go out and get a nice new gun over an interesting one that could use some work...All it meant was that it's new, it'll soon be coming to MA, and I wanted to point it out to everyone else. NES is all about us being able to learn from one another...I'm slowly learning about AR's...let me learn.
Lugnut said:dreppucci007 said:Now, that's far from true. All I'm saying is that before joining up at NES, I barely knew what an AR was. Yes, I'm acting like a kid in Toys R Us seeing the new MP15 "ooo, I want one" in a whiney tone. So what? That doesn't mean I'd automatically go out and get a nice new gun over an interesting one that could use some work...All it meant was that it's new, it'll soon be coming to MA, and I wanted to point it out to everyone else. NES is all about us being able to learn from one another...I'm slowly learning about AR's...let me learn.
I'm in the same boat as you. I don't know a lot about the ARs but they are growing on me big time... don't know why. But I might just get the impulse to go out an buy one some day... I'm not ashamed.
Y'know, you guys might want to try to hook up with some of the high-power match shooters. Those guys are apparently shooting out to 600 yds. with AR's and must know what it takes to make a good gun.Lugnut said:...I'm in the same boat as you. I don't know a lot about the ARs but they are growing on me big time... don't know why. But I might just get the impulse to go out an buy one some day... I'm not ashamed.
jhrosier said:Y'know, you guys might want to try to hook up with some of the high-power match shooters. Those guys are apparently shooting out to 600 yds. with AR's and must know what it takes to make a good gun.
jhrosier said:I mention this because I know of one fellow who sunk a lot of loot into a Colt upper that wouldn't shoot for beans [cry]
. . .I just completed a two-day Patrol rifle Course with a large PD on the West Coast. Everyone in the class used an AR-15, mostly Colts, a few Bushmasters.
Ammunition was generic Winchester. Each student expended nearly one thousand rounds.
We had a few failures to feed which were quickly reduced by the student, but no catastrophic breakdowns, save one. One student, a gunsmith no less, brought a tight-chambered (SAAMI), heavy-barreled, target rifle that started life as an AR-15, although it was difficult to tell by looking at it. It heated up and seized during the first hour of the class. We had to pull it off the line and give him a military surplus M-16, which worked fine for the duration. Any serious, autoloading rifle needs a NATO chamber. Only bolt guns should have SAAMI chambers.
. . .DPMS AR-15s are manufactured nearby, and we had several in the course. All functioned well, except for the ones that had their triggers "customized." All of them experienced continuous functional distress One went down completely.
Lesson: PLAY GUNS CANNOT DOUBLE AS SERIOUS GUNS. Military rifles are pretty well set up for serious fighting as the come from the factory. Attempts to "customize" triggers and "accurize" the system are ill advised if the weapon is to be put to serious use. Increases in accuracy from such modifications are negligible, but compromises in reliability are disastrous, as we saw this weekend.
. . .Sage rifle comments from a friend in the Philippines:
"AR15's have always been popular here. They were made locally from 1983-1987 under license from Colt. Most are still in active service. The black market is the ONLY source for these rifles, as none can be transferred legally.
Connected ("qualified') civilians are allowed to possess and even carry them outside their homes. Many are thus ditching their MP5s and UZIs. Pent up demand, coupled with news photos of US soldiers armed with M4s during their local exercises, has driven the cost of these black-market ARs through the roof.
In the last few months, among my friends I've seen every conceivable permutation of this rifle! Anything from an eight-inch barrel to a twenty-four inch, heavy barrel, with every imaginable gimmick glued, screwed, taped, or pinned onto them.
You Americans are not the only gimmick-happy race in the world! Most folks here too just can't seem to be content with any species of 'stock' rifle. They predictably load them up with widgets until they weigh more than an M-14.
'Accuracy' jobs are just as common. Like you, I've seen nearly all of these modified guns malfunction with monotonous regularity. Curiously, their demonstrated unreliability is usually lost on their naive owners. Some things never change!
Standing in stark contrast are full-time military people I know whose lives literally depend on the reliability of their individual weapons every time they go on an operation. Most of my military friends have been on many. Their M-16s are all stock, 'plain vanilla' as you would say. These men have survived numerous, live contacts with the enemy. Their rifles work, every time. Those with unreliable rifles are no longer with us!"
Lesson: Take this advice from the mouth of one who knows. You need to be serious about your "serious" weapons.
. . .On the AR-15/M-16/M-4/etc from a friend who manufacturers guns:
"As a result of heavy use, M-16 upper receiver aluminum forgings can begin to 'oval out' where the barrel is installed. Accuracy suffers greatly, and the weapon can come apart.
On the lower receiver (also an aluminum forging), the holes for the hammer pin are also famous for 'ovaling,' to the point pins walk out.
The M16 bolt also has problems. Locking lugs next to the extractor begin to crack around 6,000 rounds, especially if the rifle is shot on full auto. The other point of bolt weakness is the cam pin hole. The bolt breaks at the cam pin hole between 6,000 and 10,000 rounds.
Most civilians will never shoot their AR15s enough for any of these problems to develop. However, your students who attend course after course should be inspecting their arms regularly.
Our government, fully aware of the forgoing, has decided to get bids on (can you believe it?) shot counters, so they can know how many rounds have gone through each rifle. This is ridiculous! It is time for a long-overdue change."
. . . On urban rifles from a LEO friend in Wisconsin:
"A couple of our officers recently graduated of the Urban Rifle Course at Thunder Ranch. They both independently made the same observation:
Many of their fellow students showed up with bipods, various battery-operated sights, attached flashlights, lasers, and bewildering sling systems, all attached in miscellaneous ways to their rifles.
WITHOUT EXCEPTION, those people had taken all that junk off their rifle by the morning of the third day. All those gadgets had either broken, fallen off, ran out of juice, or made the rifle so heavy and unwieldily as to render it useless."
Lesson: Don't load up your guns with gimmicky junk. Instead, load up yourself with knowledge, righteousness, and experience. The latter will serve you far better than the former.
. . . Good friend, Giles Stock, made a wonderful and revealing presentation on 223/5.56 rifle chambers. Rifles can feature NATO or SAMMI specification chambers. As a rule, military rifles have NATO chambers, and recreational rifles have SAMMI chambers, but there is some overlap. For example, Ruger's Mini-14 has been made both ways!
NATO chambers have a long lead. SAMMI chambers are tighter and have a short lead. SAMMI chambers are designed for increased accuracy, but will yield dangerously high pressures in guns using military ammunition and/or which are subject to high volume shooting. Under such high pressures, primers will typically blow out backwards, fall down into the trigger mechanism, and cause the rifle to stop working. I've surely seen this on the range.
Bottom line: SAMMI chambers are for the kiddies. Any serious rifle needs a NATO chamber. Robinson Arms rifles come with NATO chambers, as do most of the others, but one needs to check.
Alex Robinson adds:
"If you use a SAMMI chamber in an autoloading rifle, you may overpressure it and blow it up when shooting rapidly. The tighter, shorter lead slows down the bullet substantially as it is trying to leave the case. When rifles are red hot from rapid shooting, the resultant pressures increase dramatically. In these situations, you need to get the bullet out of the case and down the barrel ASAP.
I never suggest using a SAMMI chamber on anything but a bolt action rifle. Anyone who tells you otherwise hasn't shot enough."
He ought to know!
Since we are currently discussing AR'S, a good gun is assumed to be an AR that can make a small group at long range. Whether or not it is also a good battle rifle is simply way OT. Things rapidly and continually change, in high-power shooting, as new equipment, ammunition, and techinques are developed. The guys that are actually out there, making it happen, at long range, have the best current information. When I qualified, 25 years ago, the AR was not capable of serious competition and we all used Garands or M1A's, so my personal experiences, while interesting, are no longer valid data.Optimistic Paranoid said:...
Ahh, I would not necessarilly assume that, no.
I guess it depends on how you define the phrase "good gun"....
MrsWildweasel said:Geez, C-pher smack Paul for not showing you how. Sometime if we get together either Glenn or I can show you also. [lol] [lol]
centermass181 said:cant be the rifle. no way.
was the target moving down to the right?
[lol]
jhrosier said:Y'know, you guys might want to try to hook up with some of the high-power match shooters. Those guys are apparently shooting out to 600 yds. with AR's ...
Heavy, fast twist barrels, with heavy (for caliber) bullets of high sectional density, is apparently giving very good results. The guys at the top of this game have no use for anything that doesn't produce good scores.Coyote33 said:In .223? Is that considered "high power" now?
jhrosier said:Heavy, fast twist barrels, with heavy (for caliber) bullets of high sectional density, is apparently giving very good results. The guys at the top of this game have no use for anything that doesn't produce good scores.
Coyote33 said:In .223? Is that considered "high power" now?