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Hypothetical in Mass, involves Bourbon
- Thread starter Atlantis
- Start date
Just to add another angle to this, anybody that lives in your/the house also needs to be trained to STFU.
You declare that you won’t speak without an attorney present, with a body laying on your kitchen floor, you’ll most likely be separated from any other residents of the home, handcuffed and brought downtown for questioning.
After you’ve been removed from the house, there will still be at least a dozen other cops and detectives in and around your home for the next several hours, leaving anybody else in the home much more vulnerable to their separating them and questioning them individually.
They (spouse/kids/roommates) will all be very shaken by the incident and now with you being removed want to help you in any way they can by telling the cops what happened, thinking that they’re doing you a favor to protect you.
Make it clear to anybody in the house long before anything happens that this is not going to help and to say nothing except “lawyer”, even under duress and threats to arrest everybody in the home.
Only one answer is acceptable “LAWYER.”
You declare that you won’t speak without an attorney present, with a body laying on your kitchen floor, you’ll most likely be separated from any other residents of the home, handcuffed and brought downtown for questioning.
After you’ve been removed from the house, there will still be at least a dozen other cops and detectives in and around your home for the next several hours, leaving anybody else in the home much more vulnerable to their separating them and questioning them individually.
They (spouse/kids/roommates) will all be very shaken by the incident and now with you being removed want to help you in any way they can by telling the cops what happened, thinking that they’re doing you a favor to protect you.
Make it clear to anybody in the house long before anything happens that this is not going to help and to say nothing except “lawyer”, even under duress and threats to arrest everybody in the home.
Only one answer is acceptable “LAWYER.”
This is quality advice. Thanks
To be clear, I am not really concerned with my second guessing the decision to defend myself. I suppose it's a valid concern that others would flinch, but if my door gets kicked in, I am not thinking about a NES thread.
But I already learned something, as noted in the post above, that even how and when you invoke your right to remain silent are consequential. As well as what I think is solid advice to at least make it appear as though you had a drink post event, so that you can make a solid defense against "bad shoot, was intoxicated" by saying "good shoot, high stress, had a drink to take the edge off AFTER" (Through your lawyer of course).
This is also quality advice. I have already drilled into my girlfriends mind that the door only opens for a warrant. It's worth revisiting that if the door is open because of an event like this, the same rules apply. "Lawyer" only.
I dunno about "harmful" unless someone is stupid enough to even care about anything else but protecting themselves or their family in that moment.
I agree with you in the other sense that it's basically pointless/mental masturbation to care about this "problem" for the most part. The mental masturbation about "what if" goes into the
absurd when people spend more time armflapping and fearing the system than they do figuring out the best way to protect themselves.
Of course the 3rd argument is going to be "well, if you layer enough security you might be able to stop/forestall the shooting event, which in turn moots the whole issue on both ends" and
those people would be right, assuming that you can bulk it up enough to matter.
-Mike
This is the practical answer. My hypothetical was rooted in my drinking a bourbon and thinking... Hmmm, this would be tricky if things got weird right now.
The actual take away is "better to not have to determine if it was a good or bad shoot". I can say my entries are not as hardened as they should be. Cameras and flood lights may be good evidence for self defense, but why not take it a step further and upgrade the door jams and door to possibly avoid the scenario entirely? That's what I am taking away from this thread, along with the obvious "STFU" advice.
Definitely a question for an attorney, which I am not.
I believe that a legally married spouse cannot be forced to testify against their SO, but, are their exclamatory or exculpatory statements on scene admissible as corroborating evidence?
As well, if you are not legally married (common law/engaged/BF or GF/or just housemates) then that has no bearing on the individual protections of legally married couples.
ETA: Where it gets murky for others in your household to understand or accept the gravity of the situation is here; we always tell our loved ones when we’re away, if anything happens or someone’s hurt or trying to get into the house while you’re there alone to call 911 immediately and get somewhere safe in the house (if in fact they have no access to legally accessible firearms and/or other means of self protection).
So now with all of that built into their upbringing and with 911 on scene, who they’ve always been taught to call for emergencies, they could easily fall into the trap of speaking freely to investigators thinking that they’re helping you, or even under duress and threats of arrest if they do not speak to them on scene.
It’s very murky waters to navigate for the untrained and most likely emotionally distraught at the time and looking for some ‘relief’ from the situation.
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To be fair, this is probably true for the majority. But personally? I take my girlfriend shooting, make sure she is competent with all firearms in the house, as well as her own. 911 is NOT our first step if we think a home invasion is under progress. Alone or otherwise.
Understood but that’s not the meat of my post, either way you’re calling 911, before or after, or you’re just looking for a rug and a river.
Ah, I see what you mean. Yeah I wasn't anticipating a triple S situation here. This is an area I am less clear in. My basic assumption is that PD is en route either way due to gunshots. I haven't thought through the actually 911 call. In fact I think I would probably want to call a lawyer first? Have them place the 911 call or wait for PD to arrive due to other callers?
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I should carve that into a wooden plaque and hang it over the mudroom door. Better yet, just hang it outside. When cops come to question me or the family we can just say "Did you read the sign?" If bad guys come to kick in your door they will see the sign and think "Damn, he's done this shit before".
We’re really getting too far down the rabbit hole of hypotheticals here, but to answer your question from a personal perspective, no. This is Mass’s in 2020, which in and of itself is not only murky waters but extremely muddy.
Perception is huge to everybody these days, in and out of court. If it’s perceived that you’ve got a downed body on your kitchen floor, AND the situation is now considered static, and you make no attempt at contacting authorities yourself you’ll be looked at a helluva lot harder, inside out and upside down they’ll shake you looking for why.
Same as calling anybody else first (lawyer/parent/friend/whatever) instead of calling 911 and allowing them to immediately respond and make an attempt at life saving procedures for the person, good or bad, that’s just how it is.
Self help in Mass’s is frowned upon, remember that.
If it comes out that you did this, and it will, they will shred you in court, and paint you as sitting back down with a cold beer or drink (the alcohol on your breath), making an extended call to an attorney (really how many of us have an attorney on call that would immediately understand our situation) while this poor yute or upstanding meth head lay dying on your floor and you did nothing to help him turn his life around. Offering him a cheers with your drink won’t go over well, although it would be funny AF at the time.
Personally, I would call 911 as soon as I felt it was safe to, ask for immediate assistance due to a home invasion with injuries, and hang up the phone.
You’re not a doctor and have no idea of the extent of the parties injuries so don’t try and explain that, let the first responders handle the medical shit.
As they arrive I’d put my firearm on the floor and slide it away from me before they enter, kneel down with my hands over my head to keep from getting shot, let them secure the firearm and cuff you if needed and just give them a few minutes to understand who’s who on scene and that they are not being threatened by any remaining parties in the house.
It’ll be chaos, just be calm and cooperate physically while being cuffed and until they start asking questions, then make your lawyer request.
Again this is all rabbit hole stuff worse than the YouTube rabbit hole, you could think it too death and still f*** it up, but as someone who’s responded to many different shooting scenes, this is what I’d advise for your safety and your long term legal proceedings protections.
I’m not a lawyer, and I’m not the smartest guy in any room, just speaking from common sense and experience.
jaypap
NES Member
I'll drink to that.
I was thinking about dousing him with gas and lighting him on fire but what a mess to deal with. Explaining how he shot himself then lit himself on fire. Then the repairs and insurance what a pain in the ass. Probably just easier to bury him in the garden.
dcmdon
NES Member
Which strangely is a way that most Northeast states are actually better than generally more gun friendly southern states.
In CT until 2 years ago, you could carry with a BAC up to .1%.
Which I used to tell my students that if you are drinking at a bar and blow .08 -.099, then you can't legally drive, but you can carry a loaded gun. (CT law has no restrictions on unloaded guns or loaded guns if you aren't carrying them)
dcmdon
NES Member
You are probably right. especially because other reality is that in any of these situations, even in MA you won't be arrested. I have offered $100 to anyone who could come up with a person who engaged in a defensive gun use that was arrested and prosecuted. Provided he was not engaged in any illegal activity at the time or didn't do something like go inside, get their gun then come back outside and shoot someone "in self defense". I never had to pay out that $100
dcmdon
NES Member
I read an article written by a lawyer who advocated for under certain circumstances telling the police only the bare minimum. His justification for it was that it may help you avoid an arrest and has little risk.
1) I was sitting here minding my own business with my wife.
2) Suddenly the door flew open and this man charged me.
3) I feared for my life and the lives of my wife and daughter. I begged him to stop. But unfortunately I had to stop the attack.
4) If you want me to asy anything else, I'll need to have my attorney present.
I'm conflicted on this. I think that some people under some circumstances would benefit from this. Others would not. Are you willing to roll the dice.
One useful thing is to learn anything you can about police interview and interrogation techniques. One of the tactics is to feign empathy (If I was in the same situation I'd have probably done the same thing). I did a bunch of research about 10 years ago on this. Shortly after that a friend was in the midst of a divorce and got into an argument with his wife. She called teh cops. He spoke to them. The first thing he said when I asked him about it was "Boy the cop was so understanding. He said he completely understood my frustration".
If you google: interview and interrogation pdf you will get some good hits.
Here is an excellent place to start.
1) I was sitting here minding my own business with my wife.
2) Suddenly the door flew open and this man charged me.
3) I feared for my life and the lives of my wife and daughter. I begged him to stop. But unfortunately I had to stop the attack.
4) If you want me to asy anything else, I'll need to have my attorney present.
I'm conflicted on this. I think that some people under some circumstances would benefit from this. Others would not. Are you willing to roll the dice.
One useful thing is to learn anything you can about police interview and interrogation techniques. One of the tactics is to feign empathy (If I was in the same situation I'd have probably done the same thing). I did a bunch of research about 10 years ago on this. Shortly after that a friend was in the midst of a divorce and got into an argument with his wife. She called teh cops. He spoke to them. The first thing he said when I asked him about it was "Boy the cop was so understanding. He said he completely understood my frustration".
If you google: interview and interrogation pdf you will get some good hits.
Here is an excellent place to start.
dcmdon
NES Member
Lol. Also known as 'the cough-syrup' defense...
I'm a .1 Percenter right now...![[rofl2]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/035.gif "ROFL2 [rofl2]")
Starting a little early??
Broomcorn
NES Member
My dad bought a set of those back in the 80's around the same time this commercial was on the air. Those knives are are still sharp today. Will they cut through a beer can? I have no idea but they cut food better than any of the kitchen knives I own that are barely 10 years old at this point.
![[smile]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/001.gif "Smile [smile]")
It's Friday O'clock
does this count?
The home owner never went outside, he was in fear as multiple attemts to gain access were made before the pane of glass broke, if someone breaks a pane of glass banging on my door I am assuming their next act will be to reach in and unlock the door to gain entry, especially after previous attempts to gain access or get a response.
The Castle Doctrine: Why was Chicopee homeowner charged with murder for shooting Springfield teen?
The issues of home defense and self-defense are at the forefront of the murder case against Chicopee homeowner Jeffery Lovell, who is accused of fatally shooting 15-year-old Dylan Francisco on Saturday.
www.masslive.com
commentary on same event:
Massachusetts Homeowner Charged For Shooting and Killing Home Invader - The Truth About Guns
◀Previous Post Next Post▶ “Police initially received a call of a breaking and entering into the home in the Fairview section of the city,” masslive.com reports. “When they arrived, they found the teenager on the ground suffering from a gunshot wound to his abdomen, [Chicopee Police...
www.thetruthaboutguns.com
The home owner was prosecuted and found not guilty:
Chicopee homeowner found not guilty in teen’s shooting death
Jeffrey Lovell of Chicopee had been charged with manslaughter in the shooting death of 15 year-old Dylan Francisco.
www.wwlp.com
