How to identify pre-ban magazines???

[Preachers Sheets]

I was wondering about the rule we follow in Massachusetts regarding pre-ban magazines.

I understand the high capacity magazines have to be manufactured prior to a specific date. However when I buy them there aren’t any markings with the date or even any markings distinguishing a pre-ban from the pictures I see on the internet of the new ones, it's kind of like "eh well they said it was pre-ban so I guess it is". How do I know for example that the 10 magazines I purchased off Joe Blow aren’t new; I was told they are pre-ban and I’m a ticking time bomb with the law?

I don’t know, I’d just like to know there is or there is not concrete proof that I have pre-bans or not. More for peace of mind. I have seen the new magazines and the old and I don’t see anything that makes them different.

For all I know I could purchase a brand new magazine (that costs 12 bucks) for 40 bucks after being told it’s a pre-ban.

I am talking about Berretta 92FS and AR-15 high-cap magazines. If you dont want to publicly post about this just send me a PM.

 

[Dench]

Some mags can be figured out by the style of the magazines features. some manufacturers used minor changes in older mags that are a dead give away that they are old.

Some AR mags come with dates stamped on them. Other clues for AR mags are the floor plates with the manufacturing stamp on them.

In a lot of cases its very difficult to tell when the mag was made, if not impossible.

 

[Knuckle Dragger]

Short of a date stamp or clear evidence that a gun or a magazine design wasn't in production prior to 1994, you generally can't tell. Things like Magpul's PMAG or M&P Hi-caps are obviously post-ban. Other items less so. More importantly, it would be very difficult to proceed with a successful prosecution for post-pan magazine possession absent expert testimony or convincing documentation. Glock has declined to assist in this area in the past and I suspect many other manufacturers would as well.

I'll point out again that I'm unaware of any stand-alone prosecution for possession of post-ban mags in MA. If anything, this is the kind of charge that sticks or goes away in a plea deal, making it unlikely that a prosecutor would ever have to present evidence to a judge or jury.

I'll also suggest that if one were ever in a situation where LE was questioning the legalities of their mags, (again absent other potential charges) that your average LEO can be expected to be unclear on the subtleties of pre-and post ban. Perfectly legal pre-ban AR-15 bodies updated with Magpul followers & floor plates, Wolff springs, and an appealing 3-color pink digital camo dura-coat finish will probably raise questions.

Although this poorly conceived and poorly executed law continues to hang like the sword of Damocles over the heads of MA gun owners, it is nearly unenforceable on it's merits and the kind of charge that a DA is very unlikely to ever be willing to take before a judge or jury.

My comments should in no way be seen as an encouragement to take the statute lightly however.

 

[amb]

This is a decent guide to what's out there for AR-15s: http://www.fulton-armory.com/ARMags.htm
(I know there are more sites that talk about it, but google is failing me at the moment.) You'll pay extra for the privilege, but if you want to be moderately sure you can get one of the few old date-stamped AR mags.

I'm fairly sure (but still, only from reading random stuff on the net) that all of the pre-ban factory 92FS magazines will be marked "PB" and made in either the US or Italy, while the "MDS" factory mags are post-ban only. (Possibly the Italian "PB" mags are guaranteed pre-ban?)

 

[jasons]

Although this poorly conceived and poorly executed law continues to hang like the sword of Damocles over the heads of MA gun owners, it is nearly unenforceable on it's merits and the kind of charge that a DA is very unlikely to ever be willing to take before a judge or jury.

We used to have a lawyer who posted here who had represented a client who was charged with having "high" capacity magazines. I don't think he shared much more detail than that, but if nothing else it is anecdotal evidence that people have been charged with this "crime." Given the political environment in MA I'm not so sure that a DA would be afraid to prosecute such a case. Just be careful.

 

[Knuckle Dragger]

Again, for the record, I wouldn't encourage anyone to take this lightly.

There's still a great distance between charging a prosecuting. If a LEO and DA were to get a hair across their collective assess and hit someone with a standalone charge of post-ban magazine possession, it's just as likely to happen with pre-ban as a post-ban mags. Excepting the cases noted above, they can't easily determine the difference and if they're motivated enough to charge someone absent other charges, they're unlikely to do so only after resolving the pre vs post issue.

Your only really safe option is eschew high cap magazine altogether. While they would need to 'prove' a mag was post ban in order to convict, they need only suspect it is so to charge you.

 

[P-14]

Proving this could be difficult for a DA because there are interchangeable parts for mags. I've repainted my prebans with Aluma Hyde II (http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=1117/Product/ALUMA_HYDE_reg__II), changed to no-tilt followers (green and orange), and added new springs and magpul floor plates. And because the mags are not dated, it is impossible to tell if they are pre- or post- ban without a metalurgical study that a DA probably would not fund.

Still, I only buy preban mags in this wonderful state of MA.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Proving this could be difficult for a DA because there are interchangeable parts for mags. I've repainted my prebans with Aluma Hyde II (http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=1117/Product/ALUMA_HYDE_reg__II), changed to no-tilt followers (green and orange), and added new springs and magpul floor plates. And because the mags are not dated, it is impossible to tell if they are pre- or post- ban without a metalurgical study that a DA probably would not fund.

Still, I only buy preban mags in this wonderful state of MA.

And unlike the Feds, there is NOTHING in MGL or CMR that specifically "ALLOWS US" to change parts in pre-ban mags with post-ban made parts!! In a state where our executive LE agencies take a position that "if a statute doesn't allow it, it must be illegal" that is risky! [I do NOT agree with this interpretation, just reporting that people in the highest places of MA LE DO BELIEVE THIS!]

 

[flintoid]

If you are talking about combloc AK magazines, there are most certainly ways to tell if they are preban or not- arsenal marks, country of origin, etc.

for one- ak74 mags in 5.45x39- pre-ban would most certainly entail bakelite east german mags because "east" germany was bankrupt before the AWB in 1994. Bulgarian mags are impossible to tell because they are still made to this day with the same arsenal markings (circle 10 at least, not sure about the other numbers if they're still made)

ak74 russian bakelite mags are preban- production of them stopped in the 80's in favor of polymer magazines.

ak47 mags that are preban are easy, as well-

-any east german magazine (country went bankrupt)
-any russian "waffle" 7.62x39 magazine (was tested in the 60's and quickly cancelled by Mikhail because it was a shit design)
-any russian Tula or Izzy slab side magazine
-any russian ribbed "classic style" mag in 7.62x39 (bakelite mags replaced their production)
-I am not sure when they stopped ribbed magazines in russia. I think they are preban, but I have no proof of it, just speculation.

7.62x39 bakelites seem to be preban due to their halt of usage from the soviet army in the 1980's when they stopped making bakelite ak74 magazines. So it's possible that all russian 7.62x39 bakelite mags are preban.

if you happen to find a rare aluminum waffle russian AK47 mag, then you have something that's preban- it was made when the AKM was designed in the 1960's. All were ordered destroyed due to poor wear.

There is a metric crap ton of "pre ban" romanian magazines in the united states- it was the primary import into the US during the AWB. Determining whether they differentiate from a post-ban import romanian magazine is nearly impossible.

 

[je25ff]

Can anyone recommend a good store/website that they have purchased pre-ban magazines at? I have a 30 round pre-ban magazine and a 10 round but would like to add a few 30 round magazines to my collection.

 

[flintoid]

Can anyone recommend a good store/website that they have purchased pre-ban magazines at? I have a 30 round pre-ban magazine and a 10 round but would like to add a few 30 round magazines to my collection.

if anyone did know of a website, they wouldn't tell you because that's forbidden to speak of on this forum. Go to a shoot and get to know some people. Then you might get that info.

Best source to buy pre-ban mags from are either gun shows, local gun shops, or private purchases from people on this forum. Check the classifieds- often people sell them for very reasonable prices.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Can anyone recommend a good store/website that they have purchased pre-ban magazines at? I have a 30 round pre-ban magazine and a 10 round but would like to add a few 30 round magazines to my collection.

Besides Flintoid's comments, which I concur with . . .

- I've bought all of my pre-ban mags from either gun shows or online forums, never from local dealers.

- KNOW what you need and that it is INDEED pre-ban! Some sellers sell post-ban (felony) mags as pre-ban to make more money (jack the price up). I see a lot of this at gun shows.

- Look on mfr/gun type-specific forums for mags. I got a few good deals on AR mags on ARfcom, Glock mags on GlockTalk, etc. Just be careful and check feedback/reputation of seller first as some have gotten burnt in big ways.

 

[Blitz1]

Can anyone recommend a good store/website that they have purchased pre-ban magazines at? I have a 30 round pre-ban magazine and a 10 round but would like to add a few 30 round magazines to my collection.

Check the classifieds here.

 

[je25ff]

Gotcha. Thanks, guys.

 

[swampy]

Weren't post ban mags supposed to have dates and/or LE only stamped on them? What are they doing since the AWB sunsetted?

 

[jasons]

Weren't post ban mags supposed to have dates and/or LE only stamped on them? What are they doing since the AWB sunsetted?

Following the law. There's no need to stamp mags anymore so why would they spend the extra money to do so?

 

[Dream to Dream]

And unlike the Feds, there is NOTHING in MGL or CMR that specifically "ALLOWS US" to change parts in pre-ban mags with post-ban made parts!!

I always assumed that this was the whole point of only allowing "pre-ban" magazines. They figure that if you can't upgrade components, eventually all the hi-cap magazines will be non-functional and we'll be forced to use reduced-capacity magazines.

 

[Knuckle Dragger]

If that's the case I'm in trouble because I've fully upgraded all my pre-ban mags. Still, you're over-thinking this. When reissued the federal AWB in MGL I'm pretty sure they didn't give it this much thought.

 

[drgrant]

Weren't post ban mags supposed to have dates and/or LE only stamped on them? What are they doing since the AWB sunsetted?

No, only "ban era" (eg, 1994-2004) mags had that requirement, and only domestic manufacturers/distributors ended up obeying it at all. The moment the ban expired every producer of mags stopped marking them with that language. Some of the newer AR mags I've seen do have date codes on them, but they no longer have the "LE Only" markings.

-Mike

 

[Len-2A Training]

If that's the case I'm in trouble because I've fully upgraded all my pre-ban mags. Still, you're over-thinking this. When reissued the federal AWB in MGL I'm pretty sure they didn't give it this much thought.

The idiots who write MGLs don't have the brain capacity to give it that much thought. They just copied the Fed Ban w/o any thought to any of the following:

- No technical expertise to get answers to questions like upgrading mags, that an unmarked mag is automatically considered pre-ban, etc. (unlike the BATFE Tech Branch),

- No knowledge of firearms (at least BATFE has some people who know which end the bullets exit from),

- That with no requirement to continue marking mags after the Fed Ban sunsetted, MA would have a difficult time determining what is legal vs. illegal.

In MA, if you are prosecuted, you can try to find the old BATFE Letter Rulings and use them for part of your defense. Will a MA judge give them any credence? That's a crap-shoot . . . I'd bet that activist judges would just say "that's the Feds rules, not ours" and hang the victim.

 

[MassMark]

And the beat goes on....

 

[drgrant]

The worst part about the MA AWB is that it's poorly implemented compared to the Federal ban it mimics. The MA hacks who wrote it, took the "definitions"
portion of the Federal law verbatim, but then they never had the forethought to think about how it would ever actually be enforced. The feds actually DID think about that a little bit....

http://law.onecle.com/uscode/18/922.html

.... (half way down the page or so.... )

(4) If a person charged with violating paragraph (1) asserts that
paragraph (1) does not apply to such person because of paragraph
(2) or (3), the Government shall have the burden of proof to show
that such paragraph (1) applies to such person. The lack of a
serial number as described in section 923(i) of this title shall be
a presumption that the large capacity ammunition feeding device is
not subject to the prohibition of possession in paragraph (1).

If MA had actually referenced this portion of US code, this whole mind numbingly annoying debate would be rendered moot- as lack of AWB markings would have been viewed more or less as "plausible deniability" in the eyes of the law. EG- the Federal attitude was that individuals should NOT be held liable for compliance if there was no way for a layperson to easily identify an "illegal" magazine.

Even the feds had the forethought to recognize the potential for judicial mind numbing stupidity in regards to this "magazine ban" business.

-Mike

 

[flintoid]

I know this question has been asked probably thousands of times, and I'm sure some Old Forum Shaman is either going to roll their eyes or hate on me for it, but do we know of any prosecution in Massachusetts under this law?

I think such a case would help clarify many of these unanswered questions. Not that I want anyone to get screwed like that or anything.

 

[Ron Swanson]

Be very careful with Ma dealers selling "preban" mags. I have seen several large well known dealers in SE Ma selling brand new post ban Glock mags with the ambi notch as "preban". When I questioned them about it I was basically told to stfu and not worry about it.

 

[Len-2A Training]

I know this question has been asked probably thousands of times, and I'm sure some Old Forum Shaman is either going to roll their eyes or hate on me for it, but do we know of any prosecution in Massachusetts under this law?

I think such a case would help clarify many of these unanswered questions. Not that I want anyone to get screwed like that or anything.

Yes, but I can't quote any cases.

Glock's head of their Legal Dept told me of two different MA DAs contacting his office in an attempt to prosecute people. Glock Legal does NOT cooperate, but no idea what became of it and never asked who contacted him.

I'm aware of a few people being charged. Not sure if they have had their day in court yet and I'm not at liberty to provide any further info.

I've read of others posted here as well.

 

[drgrant]

I know this question has been asked probably thousands of times, and I'm sure some Old Forum Shaman is either going to roll their eyes or hate on me for it, but do we know of any prosecution in Massachusetts under this law?

I think such a case would help clarify many of these unanswered questions. Not that I want anyone to get screwed like that or anything.

This topic is hard to research cases on because access to public records involving MA criminal cases is spotty at best.

The research I've done usually eneds up pulling up guys that have been hit with 131G? or somesuch.... which is another law in MGL that pertains to "Possession of an LCAFD without a license" which obviously is far easier to prosecute on, especially in the realm that 95% of all gun cases in MA are against people who were otherwise engaged in some criminal act- eg, the individuals being charged typically don't have an LTC of any kind. A smart DA/Prosecutor would always charge with that before an AWB charge, because the AWB charge is more likely to fail if it goes to trial due to the standard of evidence being a lot higher.

Not all that long ago I think GSG posted something about a guy being charged under the AWB as part of a laundry list of other charges. When Scrivener was still here he recently made a couple of "veiled references" to defending a couple of clients in those types of cases (eg, where the client was being charged with an AWB charge on mags in addition to other charges) but he didn't post the outcomes nor did he indicate whether or not they were successful. My guess is due to confidentiality or he wanted to protect the "secret sauce" used in defense.

My best guess is that AWB charges, in practice, are probably piled on in order to induce a plea bargain. Most prosecutors expect the accused's lawyers to not have a clue about MA firearms law (And they'd be right, most of the time- I honestly believe there are probably only a handful of criminal law attorneys in MA that are really competent and informed enough to handle firearms law issues in MA) so they probably feel safe in blowing smoke up their rear end by piling on an AWB charge, even if the chances of it succeeding in a full blown trial are in the "slim to none" category. It's used as a "bargaining chip" by the prosecution.

One thing to keep in mind... while I agree the law is dubious and poorly thought out, and a successful prosecution is highly unlikely in most cases, theres is this notional in reality that.... " If you have to go to trial you will always lose, even if you are not guilty and are acquitted" due to the monetary costs involved in a competent attorney defending you at trial..... Unless you're independently wealthy or something, and if you were, I would question your sanity in regards to making a decision to stay in MA.

-Mike

 

[TWBARRETT]

Some great info on this thread, thanks

 

[BenDover]

Couple links that I use...they've been posted in other threads but it never hurts to post them again:

http://www.nyfirearms.com/blog/2008/10/preban-ar-15-magazine-identification/

This one has some nice pics....just click on the "X":
http://www.biggerhammer.net/ar15/magazines/rawlesfaq.html

 

[GSG]

This thread inspired me to draft a new addition to my sigline.

I know this question has been asked probably thousands of times, and I'm sure some Old Forum Shaman is either going to roll their eyes or hate on me for it, but do we know of any prosecution in Massachusetts under this law?

I think such a case would help clarify many of these unanswered questions. Not that I want anyone to get screwed like that or anything.

Yes.

http://www.northeastshooters.com/vb...5-AWB-Investigations-and-Prosecutions-in-Mass.

 

[drgrant]

This thread inspired me to draft a new addition to my sigline.

Yes.

http://www.northeastshooters.com/vb...5-AWB-Investigations-and-Prosecutions-in-Mass.

I wonder if it is possible to obtain transcripts from those trials to see what was actually said in the courtroom... assuming, of course, there wasn't some backroom deal, which I imagine might have been likely in the Manso case.

A successful prosecution (without the charge getting dropped in the process) would be the most interesting to look at..... although I don't think that exists. Another problem is even if it does exist, my guess is it involves someone taking a plea bargain and not going to trial, so the state is not forced to prove the quality of its evidence.

The main thing these incidents show, though, is that in some locales in MA they are willing to throw baloney at a wall to attempt to "prosecute someone more". Staying out of trouble to begin with (keeping your head down) seems to be the operative thing to do.

-Mike