How to aquire a SBR

[abomb60]

This isn't really true..... the government doesn't care about the tax, just about having power over you. If it was "just" a tax life would be simple.

The tax stamp is a canard of epic proportions. The tax stamp is just the regulatory ritz cracker that the national firearms act rides on. Without it, they would not have been able to get away with implementing those laws. The stamp is just an enabling
device- eg, the feds have the authority to collect taxes, so they built the NFA around that concept.

Think about it- if it was really just about the taxes, when BATFE found a guy with an illegal machinegun or other NFA device, why wouldn't they just assess a tax and maybe penalties/fines, as opposed to stealing the gun and locking the person in jail- which ultimately, ends up costing the feds a hell of a lot more than $200.

Also, if it was just about collecting the taxes, they would have set it up so you could go to an FFL, fill out some paperwork to buy an SBR, and pay the tax to the FFL on the spot, which would in turn be sent to BATFE. The whole NFA process could be automated through FFLs. It's not- and the reason why is because it's intentionally designed to be obstructionist to slow down/limit NFA registrations. I also think that BATFE hires NFA examiners that are dumber than a box of rocks on purpose... there is no reason why an NFA transfer should take longer than a day or so of processing time. The slowness of the system is literally "on purpose".

If the NRA had a set of balls they would have pushed something through like the "NFA modernization act" when the GOP had control of congress... Which would force BATFE to automate and expedite the process- there really is no technical reason why it couldn't be done... especially in the case of things which are not machineguns. (EG, for SBRs, AOWs, Suppressors, DDs, etc, there is literally no need to prove provenance via the NFRTR, because people are allowed to legally make "new" devices except for machineguns. )

-Mike

You make some good points Mike.

 

[drgrant]

I am interested in SBR as well. NES posters have helped me hugely understanding much of this , you guys are the best. I understand there is a big restriction with NFA items and interstate travel. WHich is where my reluctance comes in. I shoot in multiple places in our region. I am a MA. resident , but I own land in Maine , and have friends in NH , with private land and with NH clubs.

SO I need Permission from the TF to take it across state lines , right ? I would love to hear of other's experience with this. Can one get an " Open ended " permission slip ? Or do I actually need an individual document for every weekend I want to plink outside of my state ?

What abomb60 said....

What you do is every year (probably best to do it the same month every year so you remember) you send in 5320.20 forms (one for each device) for all the places you are likely to bring your NFA devices to. You set the date range for the maximum (1 year). These are approved without hassle as long as you fill out the form correctly. Not that it matters much to MA folks, but 5320s are not required for suppressors. (EG, an NH resident could legally bring their registered suppressor to any state where suppressors are legal. Some people file 5320s on suppressors but it is unnecessary. )

Be sure to check laws of the destination state. My guess is the NFA branch will probably not approve a 5320 to a location that obviously prohibits NFA devices (Example would be RI.... )

-Mike

 

[seanc]

Thanks.

So : MaybeItem in question is a semi auto ( Kahr ) AutoOrd Thompson Gun. Cool toy , but it's be much " Funner " as SBR.

I Think you should probably rethink this one. I think the Tommy gun pistol is a lot better way to go. No regulations, no interstate issues (well Mass issues), at least no 5320s. As it's a semi only, I don't the stock adds much (IMO). Just find a hill, fire from the hip and enjoy!!

But, buy the pistol. Enjoy it, shoot it (as a title 1). If down the line you decide you have to have a stock, form 1 it into an sbr at that point..

 

[dcmdon]

FYI you are only a felon if you are convicted of a felony. The ATF could try to make a constructive possession case against you if they wanted to but you wouldn't be a felon unless they won.

Also FYI the short upper could be for an AR pistol. So now if I own an AR pistol with a 7" upper and a normal AR with a 16" barrel and also have in my possession a 10.5" upper how can one prove it's not for the pistol?

You are clean in that scenario. I didn't include pistol lowers, well, because I'd never consider owning an AR pistol. I stand corrected.

Bottom line, if you have a short upper, you'd better have SOMETHING that it can go on legally. The all inclusive list of what that is is:

1) Machinegun
2) SBR
3) Pistol lower

 

[seanc]

You are clean in that scenario. I didn't include pistol lowers, well, because I'd never consider owning an AR pistol. I stand corrected.

Bottom line, if you have a short upper, you'd better have SOMETHING that it can go on legally. The all inclusive list of what that is is:

1) Machinegun
2) SBR
3) Pistol lower

Long story short... It's a stupid thing to do. Don't do it. File the papers, wait for the stamp to come back and THEN (and only then) buy the potential issue parts.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

This isn't really true..... the government doesn't care about the tax, just about having power over you. If it was "just" a tax life would be simple.

If it were really about the tax, the penalties and level of offense would be consistent with what is imposed when the government determines you did not pay some other $200 tax you owe.

The only reason there is a $200 tax on an NFA weapon is that back in 1934, congress considered it obvious they could not ban this sort of weapon and used the tax to impose a de-facto ban - $200 was a LOT of money back then (average wages were under $2000/year)

 

[dcmdon]

Sweet. I just think how funny it is that your some huge felon breaking this law but as soon as you pony up 200 bucks to the government, without fail, you're completely within your rights.

Mike

as someone said before, its not about the money.
Consider that the entire NFA branch of the ATF exists because of the need to regulate this stuff. I really don't think the number of transfers that happens every year covers all the overhead.

Consider this. Based on the cost of living calculator located here:
http://www.aier.org/research/worksheets-and-tools/cost-of-living-calculator

$200 in 1934, the year the NFA was enacted, is now worth $3200!!!

So if Obama said "we just want to increase the stamp to keep up with inflation", he could raise the cost of a transfer to $3200.

Scary huh??

 

[dcmdon]

What abomb60 said....

What you do is every year (probably best to do it the same month every year so you remember) you send in 5320.20 forms (one for each device) for all the places you are likely to bring your NFA devices to. You set the date range for the maximum (1 year). These are approved without hassle as long as you fill out the form correctly. Not that it matters much to MA folks, but 5320s are not required for suppressors. (EG, an NH resident could legally bring their registered suppressor to any state where suppressors are legal. Some people file 5320s on suppressors but it is unnecessary. )

Be sure to check laws of the destination state. My guess is the NFA branch will probably not approve a 5320 to a location that obviously prohibits NFA devices (Example would be RI.... )

-Mike

DRGrant - To add a bit to your 5320 explanation. You now need to do a 5320 for each NFA item and EACH STATE. I recently sent in a 5320 to get myself into Maine to take a carbine class. I figured while I was filling out the form, I'd add New Hampshire and Mass to the form. (Two places I have friends who take me shooting.)

The form came back rejected with the instruction to file a separate form for each state. I made 2 photocopies, scratched out 2 different states on each one and mailed the 3 otherwise identical 5320s into the feds and got them back approved in about 2 weeks.

Don

 

[seanc]

DRGrant - To add a bit to your 5320 explanation. You now need to do a 5320 for each NFA item and EACH STATE. I recently sent in a 5320 to get myself into Maine to take a carbine class. I figured while I was filling out the form, I'd add New Hampshire and Mass to the form. (Two places I have friends who take me shooting.)

The form came back rejected with the instruction to file a separate form for each state. I made 2 photocopies, scratched out 2 different states on each one and mailed the 3 otherwise identical 5320s into the feds and got them back approved in about 2 weeks.

Don

Don,
Probably a dumb question.
But, this does not mean you need a separate form for each state you travel through to get to the 5320 destination or does it??

if I am just passing through NH (not stopping) on the way to Maine, I won't need to fill out a separate form for simply traveling through a state, will I?

Do we know how long a "stay" in a state is required to need a separate 5320? If traveling to a state, and you will need to grab a hotel to sleep for a few hours, do you need a 5320 for that as well??

 

[dcmdon]

You don't need a 5320 for a state you are traveling through.

 

[Mattitude]

It seems like things are cleared up about the "short" upper & NFA lower, just be sure that when filling out the Form 1 the ATF no longer accepts a barrel length range (7"-14.5"). It MUST be listed as one length, 10.5" for example, but that doesn't mean that you can't own/use multiple SBR length uppers...because you can BUT any changes listed on the Form 1 MUST be temporary and be able to be changed back to the "registered" configuration without tools. Even if a 16" or longer upper is installed on the NFA lower, a copy of the Form 1 (or Form 4 if you bought the SBR from a dealer) with the firearm at all times AND a 5320.20 filled out if going over state lines. The 5320.20 is needed ONLY for the destination UNLESS you will be making an extended stopover to the destination (overnight hotel stay is fine...3 day tactical class is not). Suppressors do NOT need any "travel papers", only the Form 4 (or Form 1 if you made it yourself) and be sure that your destination state allows that NFA item. You can travel through non-NFA friendly states because of the Peacable Journey Law. As for the Thompson pistol, you can register it as an AOW and install a vertical foregrip. You can register any handgun as an AOW and install a vertical grip, but NOT a stock as it would then be a SBR. AOW's only cost 5.00 to register vs. 200.00 for SBR/suppressor/MG/SBS/Form 1's. I currently have 2 SBR's (MP5K PDW & SIG 556 SBR) and 2 suppressors (Tactical Innovations Stratus rimfire & AAC M4-2000 5.56) on a Revocable Living Trust. Also on suppressors, the can itself is registered and can be used on any host weapon and it doesn't necessarily have to be the same caliber as the can itself. You can safely shoot a 5.56 through a 7.62 can, a 9mm through a .45ACP can, etc...you can normally shoot a smaller caliber through a larger caliber can but the performance isn't as good as using a dedicated can...but it's perfectly legal and safe in most cases.

 

[securityboy]

Just a quick minor correction

...AOW's only cost 5.00 to register vs. 200.00 for SBR/suppressor/MG/SBS/Form 1's...

All NFA (including AOW's) "cost" $200 to register (ie build on a Form 1). However AOW's only "cost" $5 to transfer (form4) vs. $200 to transfer MG's, SBR's, SBS's, DD's & suppressors

 

[dcmdon]

matitude,
that sheer walll of text is a bit . . unstructured. any chance you can break it up so this marginally ADHD person can stick with it. ha.

 

[dcmdon]

A couple of caveats to this statement:

You can safely shoot a 5.56 through a 7.62 can, a 9mm through a .45ACP can, etc...you can normally shoot a smaller caliber through a larger caliber can but the performance isn't as good as using a dedicated can...but it's perfectly legal and safe in most cases.

You just need to remember that you can only shoot a rifle round through a rifle can. i.e. if you shoot a .223 through a 9mm pistol can, you will most likely explode the 9mm can. Although the 9mm is larger in diameter, a .223 case holds much more power and operates at a higher pressure.

Another thing is that although a .22 long rifle will work fine out of just about any other caliber can in existance, it will quickly foul up the works. Most .22 cans can be taken apart and cleaned because of this. If you wanted to shoot it through a 9mm can, which works very well, the 9mm can should be able to be disassembled and taken apart.

Two examples of a disassemblable 9mm can that works well iwth a .22 are the Yankee Hill Cobra 2 and the Degroat Tactical Nano.

Don

 

[Mattitude]

...I tend to do that as I start out intending to only write a few sentances, but turn out a bit longer and harder on the eyes. Suppressors, I should've not implied about the using pistols w/rifle cans and vise versa...not a good idea at all. Many pistol cans are aluminum and firing a higher pressure rifle round through it will not end well. Rimfires are a whole breed of themselves because they are so dirty. I don't believe in sealed rimfire cans even though there are so many out there. I prefer to be able to take apart my rimfire can and clean it (a blast cabinet is just short of necessary) because the performance difference between a sealed and take apart can is small...but the sealed looses the race after it starts to fill up & lose volume...which loses the performance edge and gets heavier from the buildup.

matitude,
that sheer walll of text is a bit . . unstructured. any chance you can break it up so this marginally ADHD person can stick with it. ha.

 

[red87930]

So is just having them together in the same house the "proof of intent" or is it only enough to charge you, where thereafter you could go in front of a jury of your peers?

While I know we all agree, that argument is weak, and I seriously question whether or not it would hold up. Is there any case history on this? It would take me less time to make a SBR out of my currently legal AR using a chop saw than it would to throw a SBR Upper on a non-NFA lower. The BATFEs statement on not needing multiple registered lowers to put the multiple uppers on also turns around and bites the probable cause argument in the back.

Mike

Hmmmmm. Massachusetts , guns, trial , jury of your peers. I would not want to count on getting 12 NES'ers in the Federal court jury pool on the same day. Those odds are quite short. The sheep would bury you on this.

 

[bigmanfugitive]

First of all I would like to thank the multitude of people who took the time to answer PART of my question. Secondly, now that the HOW part is beat to death, is more importantly the WHERE to get one or where to start getting one if I were to assemble my own lower.

Third, does caliber matter? Say I wanted a short .308?

Thanks for all the help so far.

 

[ChevyGuy91]

You can order a SBR upper almost anywhere that sells AR uppers on the internet. Bravocompanyusa.com, spikestactical.com/, laruetactical.com/, to name a few.

SBR is SBR caliber does not matter.

 

[fubar]

Now a gripe :

The Federal Government has given us a law requiring us to register and "stamp" these items. Okay. I hate it , but it happened way before I was born. But how exactly do the Feds explain a Federally registered & taxed item being restricted by law to stay in a particular state ? Doesn't that seem backwards ? I pay a federal tax on gasoline , and the cash in my pocket for that matter - but I can take it all over the place.

Wouldn't a ... rational ... person expect : State permission to stay in state , federal permission to go anywhere.

Whatever, The private believes there is no correct answer ... I appreciate the info you guys are willing to share. Thanks.

 

[ChevyGuy91]

I think it was said before, it is intentionally made difficult to make people not want to bother.

 

[See2]

You can order a SBR upper almost anywhere that sells AR uppers on the internet. Bravocompanyusa.com, spikestactical.com/, laruetactical.com/, to name a few.

SBR is SBR caliber does not matter.

Yeah, that.

 

[bigmanfugitive]

OK, on the ATF form 1 to make a reciever I have already into a registered SBR what do I put for the "Why I intend to make the firearm"? Im completely stumped on this one. And where it says length is that current length or soon to be length or finished length? And how do I get a "Certification of Compliance"?

 

[seanc]

OK, on the ATF form 1 to make a reciever I have already into a registered SBR what do I put for the "Why I intend to make the firearm"? Im completely stumped on this one. And where it says length is that current length or soon to be length or finished length? And how do I get a "Certification of Compliance"?

I would go with collection and investment.

 

[securityboy]

OK, on the ATF form 1 to make a reciever I have already into a registered SBR what do I put for the "Why I intend to make the firearm"? Im completely stumped on this one. And where it says length is that current length or soon to be length or finished length? And how do I get a "Certification of Compliance"?

Cert of Compliance... how bout look on the ATF's web site under forms... http://www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-5330-20.pdf

As for reason, put whatever you want, i've seen a few "fighting off Zombies" don't think ATF cares...

As for length they are talking about the completed item.

Now a gripe :

The Federal Government has given us a law requiring us to register and "stamp" these items. Okay. I hate it , but it happened way before I was born. But how exactly do the Feds explain a Federally registered & taxed item being restricted by law to stay in a particular state ? Doesn't that seem backwards ? I pay a federal tax on gasoline , and the cash in my pocket for that matter - but I can take it all over the place...

I know this might seem like splitting hairs but maybe it will clear things up for you.
1. Unlike your example of gasoline, its not so much that it is a tax on the item, it is a transfer tax (basicly a tax on an "action").
2. The item is not restricted by law to stay in one state, you are free to move it around state to state as you wish, you simply have to file a 5320.20 form because the federal regulations do cover interstate transport.

 

[ChevyGuy91]

I saw somewhere online someone put done Zombies and it got accepted.



This is where I found it.
http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=6299234

 

[dcmdon]

You can order a SBR upper almost anywhere that sells AR uppers on the internet. Bravocompanyusa.com, spikestactical.com/, laruetactical.com/, to name a few.

SBR is SBR caliber does not matter.

Be careful how you use the term SBR. SBR is a specific legal term used by the ATF to describe a firearm. An upper is not a firearm so by definition there is no such thing as an SBR upper. Thats why I've gone to pains to use the term "short upper", because it could go on an SBR, a Machine Gun (another ATF Term) , or a Pistol.

A short upper doesn't make an SBR until it is mated to a standard AR Rifle lower receiver. If its mated to a Machinegun or Pistol lower, then it just becomes a part on a machinegun or a pistol.
I'm not trying to be a prick, but we need to be very explicit in our terminology or we will just create confusion among those who are trying to learn.

 

[dcmdon]

I have put "to add to my collection" and "for all legal purposes" as my reasons.

 

[Mattitude]

The "why I intend to make the firearm" could be for "all lawful purposes" BUT check your state law for NFA exceptions. In NC the only reasons accepted are "test and evaluation" and "research and development"...that's it. "Zombie hunting" is funny and all, but when a LEO asks to see your form he might think you are some sort of wise-ass. Not all LEO's have a sense of humor unfortunately. The length is the overall length of the finished firearm in it's shortest configuration. It doesn't have to be exact, it can be 1-2" either way. The "certification of compliance" is just a form stating that you are a US citizen. You can get the forms from www.titleii.com Here is how your completed Form 1 would look like. Remember that the Form 1 is submitted in duplicate and BE SURE to print the form front-to-back as they won't accept the form if it's in 2 seperate pages.

OK, on the ATF form 1 to make a reciever I have already into a registered SBR what do I put for the "Why I intend to make the firearm"? Im completely stumped on this one. And where it says length is that current length or soon to be length or finished length? And how do I get a "Certification of Compliance"?

 

[dcmdon]

Just one thing to add to the above. Know your rights. If a LEO asks to see your form 4, you do NOT have to produce it. Its not required by statute. Thats the whole point of the registry. They call in the SN and get an answer as to who owns it. I'm not saying not to carry it. Just know the law.

 

[drgrant]

Just one thing to add to the above. Know your rights. If a LEO asks to see your form 4, you do NOT have to produce it. Its not required by statute. Thats the whole point of the registry. They call in the SN and get an answer as to who owns it. I'm not saying not to carry it. Just know the law.

This depends on the state. Some states (FL I believe) state that "NFA is legal if it's registered" and that would enable a LEO to legitimately ask to see your federal paperwork. NC may be the same way.

-Mike