How to aquire a SBR

[bigmanfugitive]

Ok people a little help if you please....

How do I go about getting myself a SBR like an AR with a 10" barrel? I know I would have to pay the $200 tax for the ATF and go through the hoops and whatnot. I guess what Im really asking is are there any dealers out there that can help me out with some information?

Do I need a WHOLE rifle or can I buy just an upper and put it on a lower of my own?

Thanks for all the help.
Sean

 

[atilla]

http://www.northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php/111-NFA-Items-and-Discussion

http://www.northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/showthread.php/32851-MA-centric-NFA-FAQ

 

[bigmanfugitive]

That answers the how do I get one, the next part is WHERE do I get one? Thanks for the response none the less

 

[crazymjb]

You should be able to just order an SBR upper or barrel. When I was building my non-NFA rifle I had a 14.5 inch barrel (NFA) shipped directly to me and I took the necessary steps to make it 16 inches (non-NFA) myself. If I had a registered NFA lower then there would have been no reason I couldn't have just ordered a shorter barrel and kept it at fewer than 16 inches, granted it would still have to comply with the MA AWB.

Mike

 

[dcmdon]

You need to get hooked up with a Class 3 dealer in your area. I'd stop by your local gun shop and ask if they do Class3. If they don't, I'm sure they can recommend some nearby.

re the "whole rifle" question.

a 10.5" upper is not a firearm. Anybody can own one. The problem comes if you own one in the same home that you own another AR that is not registered as an SBR.

The lower receiver is the firearm when it comes to ARs. You could very easily register your EXISTING AR as a SBR. You would need to complete a "form 1" to register it. Its a straightforward process. No more complex than getting a pistol permit.

Here is a link to the form1:
www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-5320-1.pdf

fill it out, get fingerprinted and get a sign off from the Chief LEO in your town and you are in business.

If you will be buying/building more than 1 or 2 NFA firearms you should DEFINITELY set up a trust. This cost $500-$800 for an attorney to set up, or $60 if you do it with Quicken Willmaker.
With a trust NO FINGERPRINTS OR CLEO SIGNOFF IS REQUIRED.

Since I've done several Form1s and I have a trust, I can now fill out all the paperwork and get the registration out the door to the ATF in about half an hour. Its not a big deal. Of course there is a learning curve.

If some of the questions stump you, just google "sample trust form 1, NFA" and you should get back some good examples.

In summary, register your existing lower, then buy a short upper.

I hope this helps.

Don

 

[dcmdon]

You should be able to just order an SBR upper or barrel. When I was building my non-NFA rifle I had a 14.5 inch barrel (NFA) shipped directly to me and I took the necessary steps to make it 16 inches (non-NFA) myself. If I had a registered NFA lower then there would have been no reason I couldn't have just ordered a shorter barrel and kept it at fewer than 16 inches, granted it would still have to comply with the MA AWB.

Mike

Mike, for the brief period of time that you had the 14.5" upper in the same home as a non-registered lower, you were a felon. This is bad advice. While anyone can buy and own an upper, if you want to keep it with any other ARs, they must be registered. The issue here is something the ATF calls "constructive intent". google it and you'll get better explanation than I can provide. Either way, be careful of owning a short upper if you own other ARs.

 

[drgrant]

Mike, for the brief period of time that you had the 14.5" upper in the same home as a non-registered lower, you were a felon. This is bad advice.

He said barrel, not upper. That's a few more degrees of separation WRT constructive possession than having an upper and a lower ready to go. BATFE could still make a constructive
possession claim, but it'd be a lot more difficult for them to do so with just a short barrel that isn't attached to a receiver.

-Mike

 

[dcmdon]

I agree. I read it wrong. Pushing 2 pins is easy.

 

[See2]

I went the Trust route, myself. As others have said, getting the upper is as simple as a few mouse clicks. I bought a 10.5" barrel direct from Noveske, no questions asked. The longest wait I had to endure was the 4 weeks for BATF to process my tax stamp... closely followed by the engraving on the lower.

 

[lupis42]

He said barrel, not upper. That's a few more degrees of separation WRT constructive possession than having an upper and a lower ready to go. BATFE could still make a constructive
possession claim, but it'd be a lot more difficult for them to do so with just a short barrel that isn't attached to a receiver.

-Mike

What is required for a constructive possession claim?

Suppose that I own 2 ARs, a 20" target model and a 10.5", properly registered SBR. Would I need to register the 20" as an SBR as well, since the uppers could be easily swapped? Would it be legal to have a lower registered as an SBR, and use both long and short barrell uppers on it?

 

[crazymjb]

Mike, for the brief period of time that you had the 14.5" upper in the same home as a non-registered lower, you were a felon. This is bad advice. While anyone can buy and own an upper, if you want to keep it with any other ARs, they must be registered. The issue here is something the ATF calls "constructive intent". google it and you'll get better explanation than I can provide. Either way, be careful of owning a short upper if you own other ARs.

The lower is my friends and therefore was at his house. I plan on buying it off him when I get my Class A, but I don't turn 21 for a little while. Also, the break was pinned and welded before it was assembled into an upper.

Quick sort of legal question. How can they prove intent if you have an SBR upper and a non NFA registered lower in the same house, but not assembled? I mean, I have a hacksaw in my garage, that doesn't mean I have a sawed off shotgun or SBR. Also, what if you have multiple AR's and say only one of your lowers is registered, but you have a designated 22 SBR upper for it and a 5.56 upper for it?

Mike

 

[See2]

What is required for a constructive possession claim?

Suppose that I own 2 ARs, a 20" target model and a 10.5", properly registered SBR. Would I need to register the 20" as an SBR as well, since the uppers could be easily swapped? Would it be legal to have a lower registered as an SBR, and use both long and short barrell uppers on it?

It's my understanding that once registered as an SBR, that lower is ALWAYS an SBR, no matter what - you could swap out the upper for a 20", and it'd still be an SBR in the eyes of the law. As long as it's legally registered, you can put whatever upper on it that you want. As for registering the 20" lower as an SBR, no I don't believe you have to. You've already got the SBR legality covered with the other lower. Yes, you could swap out the "shorty upper, onto the non-SBR lower, but you'd be risking time at Camp Fed, so why bother, since you already have a legally registered SBR lower?

 

[dcmdon]

I asked that to an atf agent I was transfered to when I called their technology branch. The guy said that If I had a registered SBR lower and multiple short uppers, it would be fine. The problem would be if I had any short uppers and NO registered lowers.

I have heard some people say that you can't have more short Uppers then you have registered lowers. I explicitly asked him this and he said that that was not the case. Of course, I forgot to get his name, rank, etc, but I'm not really too worried.

 

[dcmdon]

Here's another twist. The CT law has a constructive intent clause in it. I asked the state police,
"so per this law, if I have a preban gun and a post ban gun, you could try to prove constructive intent because I could easily push 2 pins on each gun and put the preban upper on the postban lower"

the cop whose name again I forgot to get (he was part of the weapons licensing group, eastern european last name, his sister is also a trooper, she works at Branierd airport in hartford with the anti gun trafficking group) started laughing. Wow. I never thought of that, he said. He was a straight shooter and told me that he thought the awb was pointless.

 

[See2]

Quick sort of legal question. How can they prove intent if you have an SBR upper and a non NFA registered lower in the same house, but not assembled?
Mike

Because all you'd need to do is push 2 pins, and you have an SBR. It's akin to saying I have a pistol with a threaded barrl and a silencer in the same house - how can they prove I'd put the silencer on the pistol? They don't HAVE to - the fact that they're in the same location implies they could be used together, which implies intent.

 

[crazymjb]

So is just having them together in the same house the "proof of intent" or is it only enough to charge you, where thereafter you could go in front of a jury of your peers?

While I know we all agree, that argument is weak, and I seriously question whether or not it would hold up. Is there any case history on this? It would take me less time to make a SBR out of my currently legal AR using a chop saw than it would to throw a SBR Upper on a non-NFA lower. The BATFEs statement on not needing multiple registered lowers to put the multiple uppers on also turns around and bites the probable cause argument in the back.

Mike

 

[vlad]

If you are willing to travel go to Zero Hour Arms he's a class III and has at some SBR.

He will also answer all your questions.

 

[See2]

So is just having them together in the same house the "proof of intent" or is it only enough to charge you, where thereafter you could go in front of a jury of your peers?

While I know we all agree, that argument is weak, and I seriously question whether or not it would hold up. Is there any case history on this? It would take me less time to make a SBR out of my currently legal AR using a chop saw than it would to throw a SBR Upper on a non-NFA lower. The BATFEs statement on not needing multiple registered lowers to put the multiple uppers on also turns around and bites the probable cause argument in the back.

Mike

Of course the argument is weak - but let's be honest, do YOU really want to be the guy in front of the judge trying to get him or her to agree with you?

 

[securityboy]

So is just having them together in the same house the "proof of intent" or is it only enough to charge you, where thereafter you could go in front of a jury of your peers?
While I know we all agree, that argument is weak, and I seriously question whether or not it would hold up.

Maybe I am misunderstanding what you are saying, but having a complete upper (under 16 inch BBL) and 1 (or more) lowers none of which are registered as an SBR, MG, or in some way denoted as a pistol lower (tough in MA) it is hardly a weak argument for constuctive possession of an unregistered SBR...that is a pretty obvious case of constructive possession...

Now if what you are saying is that having "too short" uppers with 1 (or more) lowers which are registered as an SBR, MG, or in some way denoted as a pistol lower AS WELL as some "regular" AR's would be a stretch for constructive possession, I'd agree with that provided you have at least as many "full sized" uppers for each non-nfa/pistol lower you have...

 

[abomb60]

Mike, for the brief period of time that you had the 14.5" upper in the same home as a non-registered lower, you were a felon. This is bad advice. While anyone can buy and own an upper, if you want to keep it with any other ARs, they must be registered. The issue here is something the ATF calls "constructive intent". google it and you'll get better explanation than I can provide. Either way, be careful of owning a short upper if you own other ARs.

FYI you are only a felon if you are convicted of a felony. The ATF could try to make a constructive possession case against you if they wanted to but you wouldn't be a felon unless they won.

Also FYI the short upper could be for an AR pistol. So now if I own an AR pistol with a 7" upper and a normal AR with a 16" barrel and also have in my possession a 10.5" upper how can one prove it's not for the pistol?

 

[abomb60]

It's my understanding that once registered as an SBR, that lower is ALWAYS an SBR, no matter what - you could swap out the upper for a 20", and it'd still be an SBR in the eyes of the law. As long as it's legally registered, you can put whatever upper on it that you want. As for registering the 20" lower as an SBR, no I don't believe you have to. You've already got the SBR legality covered with the other lower. Yes, you could swap out the "shorty upper, onto the non-SBR lower, but you'd be risking time at Camp Fed, so why bother, since you already have a legally registered SBR lower?

Technically this is true. A registered SBR does not have to have a barrel of less than 16". The 2 attributes that make an SBR is overall length and/OR less than 16" barrel. Once registered it can be converted back to a normal rifle by writing a letter requesting such to the ATF. The rifle can now be sold/transferred/lost at sea as a normal rifle provided the overall length or barrel have been changed to make it a non-SBR.

 

[bigmanfugitive]

Is there a limit on how short an SBR can be before they consider it a pistol or does that not matter because if its registered as a rifle then ITS A RIFLE?

 

[abomb60]

Is there a limit on how short an SBR can be before they consider it a pistol or does that not matter because if its registered as a rifle then ITS A RIFLE?

No limit. Pistols can't have stocks or foregrips ... rifles can (but don't have to).

 

[seanc]

So is just having them together in the same house the "proof of intent" or is it only enough to charge you, where thereafter you could go in front of a jury of your peers?

While I know we all agree, that argument is weak, and I seriously question whether or not it would hold up. Is there any case history on this? It would take me less time to make a SBR out of my currently legal AR using a chop saw than it would to throw a SBR Upper on a non-NFA lower. The BATFEs statement on not needing multiple registered lowers to put the multiple uppers on also turns around and bites the probable cause argument in the back.

A couple of things.. Yes, unfortunately, this DOES happen and yes, people do get convicted. From what I have seen in the past, generally, the person charged is already under investigation by ATF. And the search/ raid turns up little. But at least they get something to charge the person with.. They also seem to throw this on as an extra charge in addition to everything else.


You can not have in your posession an unregistered host (in this case a lower, or say an 870) and also posess a short barrel for it. This is considered by ATF to posession of an registered nfa item. The lightning link is famous for posession of unregistered machine gun cases.
If you have a registered receiver or a pistol lower, you can own multiple short uppers/ barrels.

Once a receiver is registered, you can have it unregistered. You can submit a request to the ATF to remove it from the NFA registry.I have heard that this is mostly used with aow/ sbr registered HK SP-89s so they can be sold as title 1 guns.

And ultimately, it will be you against the ATF in court. They have unlimited resources and can trot out 100+ "experts" to testify against you. They have also been known to be less than truthful in court. Add in a jury of people that generally know nothing about firearms, nevermind the minutae of the gca and nfa acts..

If they search your house and find Ivory soap, a bic lighter, swiffer sweeper pads and ragnar benson book they could charge you with bomb making materials. After a ton of experts with Dr's and PHDs after their names testifiy, the unknowledgable jury would have a tough time buying your innocence regardless of the truth.

 

[crazymjb]

Sweet. I just think how funny it is that your some huge felon breaking this law but as soon as you pony up 200 bucks to the government, without fail, you're completely within your rights.

Mike

 

[abomb60]

Sweet. I just think how funny it is that your some huge felon breaking this law but as soon as you pony up 200 bucks to the government, without fail, you're completely within your rights.

Mike

Just goes to prove that the government doesn't really care what you do as long as they get their tax money

 

[fubar]

I am interested in SBR as well. NES posters have helped me hugely understanding much of this , you guys are the best. I understand there is a big restriction with NFA items and interstate travel. WHich is where my reluctance comes in. I shoot in multiple places in our region. I am a MA. resident , but I own land in Maine , and have friends in NH , with private land and with NH clubs.

SO I need Permission from the TF to take it across state lines , right ? I would love to hear of other's experience with this. Can one get an " Open ended " permission slip ? Or do I actually need an individual document for every weekend I want to plink outside of my state ?

 

[abomb60]

I am interested in SBR as well. NES posters have helped me hugely understanding much of this , you guys are the best. I understand there is a big restriction with NFA items and interstate travel. WHich is where my reluctance comes in. I shoot in multiple places in our region. I am a MA. resident , but I own land in Maine , and have friends in NH , with private land and with NH clubs.

SO I need Permission from the TF to take it across state lines , right ? I would love to hear of other's experience with this. Can one get an " Open ended " permission slip ? Or do I actually need an individual document for every weekend I want to plink outside of my state ?

You need to fill out and have approved a form 5320 in order to move a NFA item (even temporarily) across state lines. You can list multiple NFA items per form but each form is good for a single location. You can't get an "open ended" 5320 approved but I have had luck getting them for a 1 year time span in the past.

Also unlike NFA Form 1's or 4's these take a few days rather than months to get back and are free.

 

[drgrant]

Sweet. I just think how funny it is that your some huge felon breaking this law but as soon as you pony up 200 bucks to the government, without fail, you're completely within your rights.

Mike

This isn't really true..... the government doesn't care about the tax, just about having power over you. If it was "just" a tax life would be simple.

The tax stamp is a canard of epic proportions. The tax stamp is just the regulatory ritz cracker that the national firearms act rides on. Without it, they would not have been able to get away with implementing those laws. The stamp is just an enabling
device- eg, the feds have the authority to collect taxes, so they built the NFA around that concept.

Think about it- if it was really just about the taxes, when BATFE found a guy with an illegal machinegun or other NFA device, why wouldn't they just assess a tax and maybe penalties/fines, as opposed to stealing the gun and locking the person in jail- which ultimately, ends up costing the feds a hell of a lot more than $200.

Also, if it was just about collecting the taxes, they would have set it up so you could go to an FFL, fill out some paperwork to buy an SBR, and pay the tax to the FFL on the spot, which would in turn be sent to BATFE. The whole NFA process could be automated through FFLs. It's not- and the reason why is because it's intentionally designed to be obstructionist to slow down/limit NFA registrations. I also think that BATFE hires NFA examiners that are dumber than a box of rocks on purpose... there is no reason why an NFA transfer should take longer than a day or so of processing time. The slowness of the system is literally "on purpose".

If the NRA had a set of balls they would have pushed something through like the "NFA modernization act" when the GOP had control of congress... Which would force BATFE to automate and expedite the process- there really is no technical reason why it couldn't be done... especially in the case of things which are not machineguns. (EG, for SBRs, AOWs, Suppressors, DDs, etc, there is literally no need to prove provenance via the NFRTR, because people are allowed to legally make "new" devices except for machineguns. )

-Mike

 

[fubar]

Thanks.

So : Maybe a year at a time for my private property in Maine. ... after that , It'd probably be simplest to keep it close to home.

Item in question is a semi auto ( Kahr ) AutoOrd Thompson Gun. Cool toy , but it's be much " Funner " as SBR. Maybe I'll write the President and ask him to repeal parts of the 34NFA.