How not to be a range/safety officer

[kalash]

 

[Hoover]

Dupe, sorry.

 

[M1911]

I have reopened this thread. I haven't been able to find another thread on this. If someone shows me the original thread, I will close it.

 

[M1911]

On the subject of the video itself: I'm not a fan of solid walls, for exactly this reason. When I am an SO on a stage with solid walls (or lots of barrels, doors, etc.), it takes a lot more vigilance on the part of the SO. Some techniques I've used for this are to 1) be the last person off the stage, 2) have an ASO clear the side of the stage that I can't see and give me a thumbs up before I give the shooter the command to load and make ready, 3) before I give the command to load and make ready, I always look around -- is anything out of place?, and 4) I use the new IDPA command "Going hot, eyes and ears".

Finally, safety is everyone's responsibility. If you are in the squad (not an SO/RO) and see something amiss, yell "cease fire" or "stop".

 

[drgrant]

I have reopened this thread. I haven't been able to find another thread on this. If someone shows me the original thread, I will close it.

LoginName posted this with a crap title, ill merge the threads once i get home...

 

[M1911]

LoginName posted this with a crap title, ill merge the threads once i get home...

Thanks, found it, merged, and moved.

 

[M1911]

What would have happened if, god forbid, the shooter shot the guy and killed him?
Involuntary manslaughter?
No charges since the fault really was the RO or the idiot down range?
Let's assume that this didn't happen in MA. We all know that it would not end well for the shooter if that were the case.

For the shooter? I think there would be no criminal charges, as he was not negligent. For the RO? Possibly.

However, I would expect everyone in the squad + CRO to be named in the civil suit.

 

[scooter]

The 15 th and 16 th shot appeared to be pretty close due to the dust plume in the back ground. I'm vey happy this turned out how it did, it could have been extremely different .

 

[M1911]

The 15 th and 16 th shot appeared to be pretty close due to the dust plume in the back ground. I'm vey happy this turned out how it did, it could have been extremely different .

Yea, it was really close to a tragedy. If I had been the SO, shooter, or fellow down range, I think I would have been done for the day. Holy crap.

 

[bill o]

Do you have any evidence that the RO did anything wrong?

The RO issued the make ready command with a person down range. That is all the evidence needed. Yes he did something wrong. Very, very wrong.

 

[TY43215]

The RO issued the make ready command with a person down range. That is all the evidence needed. Yes he did something wrong. Very, very wrong.

And with that in mind, there is now a NROI investigation on the subject (For those not familiar, NROI is the governing body for rang Officers in USPSA.)

This is a very sad display of a failure to properly clear the range. I am hoping they figure out if the person acting as a RO was in fact certified and if his score keeper RO was also. If they were, my feeling is they will be stripped of their certifications and required to take a RO course again (Unless they have given up the sport as a result of this)

As several others in this thread have done, I have worked major matches in IDPA and USPSA in three states. Some here have worked National level also. Becoming lax as to procedure is dangerous in the shooting sports and this reinforces that thought.

It will be very interesting to see the outcome.

 

[drgrant]

At least nobody got hurt. And this video making rounds will probably make a few people a little more vigilant than they were before... one can only hope.

-Mike

 

[Realtor MA]

I watched this a few times and every time I get this gut wrenching feeling. Kind of like watching that video of the guy who climbs the 1700 foot tower to change a light bulb.
Maybe the idea of having 'everybody' pitch in to tape targets isn't such a good idea. It would be easier to keep track of fewer people.
I don't think the shooter is to blame here. Depending upon how things unfolded prior to this it maybe the guy downrange or the SO or a combination of the two. But there also had to be any number of onlookers who should've been paying attention too.
It would be interesting to know more of the details.
Thank God nobody got hurt!!

 

[M1911]

Maybe the idea of having 'everybody' pitch in to tape targets isn't such a good idea. It would be easier to keep track of fewer people.

This issue isn't so much keeping track of people, as that isn't how most SO's work. With a dozen or more people in your squad, you can't easily look up range in the bay and see that everyone is accounted for. And just because someone isn't up range doesn't mean they are down range -- they might have gone to the portapotti.

The issue is clearing the range. The SO/ASO must clear the range. The more opaque barriers on the stage the harder that is to do.

Depending upon how things unfolded prior to this it maybe the guy downrange or the SO or a combination of the two.

It's the SO. Yes, the guy downrange should be more cognizant, but the SO's responsibility is to clear the range and he didn't do that. Same for the ASO.

 

[peterthefish]

And with that in mind, there is now a NROI investigation on the subject (For those not familiar, NROI is the governing body for rang Officers in USPSA.)

This is a very sad display of a failure to properly clear the range. I am hoping they figure out if the person acting as a RO was in fact certified and if his score keeper RO was also. If they were, my feeling is they will be stripped of their certifications and required to take a RO course again (Unless they have given up the sport as a result of this)

As several others in this thread have done, I have worked major matches in IDPA and USPSA in three states. Some here have worked National level also. Becoming lax as to procedure is dangerous in the shooting sports and this reinforces that thought.

It will be very interesting to see the outcome.

Looks like the RO wasn't certified from some chatter on Enos...

 

[IPSC 598]

And with that in mind, there is now a NROI investigation on the subject (For those not familiar, NROI is the governing body for rang Officers in USPSA.)

This is a very sad display of a failure to properly clear the range. I am hoping they figure out if the person acting as a RO was in fact certified and if his score keeper RO was also. If they were, my feeling is they will be stripped of their certifications and required to take a RO course again (Unless they have given up the sport as a result of this)
As several others in this thread have done, I have worked major matches in IDPA and USPSA in three states. Some here have worked National level also. Becoming lax as to procedure is dangerous in the shooting sports and this reinforces that thought.

It will be very interesting to see the outcome.

This single event had it resulted in a serious injury or worse a death could have done irreparable harm to the shooting sport. (USPSA, IDPA)

 

[tabascoisnice]

The RO doesn't even yell stop...he just wanders down and is like...yeah, ok stop.

 

[Robert1]

The Russians do this all the time

 

[Rob Boudrie]

If they were, my feeling is they will be stripped of their certifications and required to take a RO course again (Unless they have given up the sport as a result of this)

That would be nothing more than a symbolic gesture to set an example.

The RO(s) who made that mistake are probably the least likely to ever repeat that oversight.

 

[OfficerObie59]

The RO issued the make ready command with a person down range. That is all the evidence needed. Yes he did something wrong. Very, very wrong.

I disagree that being an RO is a strict-liability gig. If the guy went down there to sneak brass after the range was cleared, that's not on the RO. Albeit, my guess is that the RO ****ed up.

 

[FPrice]

I found this posted on the Glock Forum. Cannot verify it's authenticity, so I'm just posting it for discussion purposes.

As many of you know by now, we experienced a very serious safety incident at our last match. A shooter was allowed to make ready and begin shooting a stage, while a person was still downrange. Fortunately, the person was spotted, the shooter stopped, and the incident concluded with no one being hurt or worse. This was the first of any such safety incident in our club's history of holding matches for over 12 years.

The primary fault naturally lies with a complacent RO, who did not make the extra effort to verify that the course of fire (with particularly poor visibility) was clear before starting the next shooter. Lesson: don't pick up the clock unless you are prepared to perform the duties of the RO with the seriousness and thoroughness that the job requires. If you need help, ask for it.

The secondary fault lies with the person picking brass, who was completely unaware that the other stage resetters had long since exited the stage, and that he was completely alone on the stage. Lesson: brass pickers who repeatedly linger on the course of fire past the time required to reset the stage targets will be denied the right to pick brass until after the squad is completely finished shooting the stage. PAY ATTENTION to when you need to leave the stage along with the target resetters. This is a constant source of RO aggravation with brassers, and it will not be tolerated any longer.

And finally to a much lessor degree but worthy of discussion, ALL shooters must have their heads in the game, even if they're not the shooter, RO or scorekeeper. This is live fire after all. We all should recognize that a stage has poor visibility or an RO is being less-than-diligent and do what we can to improve the situation - an extra set of eyes, a cautionary suggestion. There are not enough people who routinely shoulder this burden. Everyone needs to be involved.

London Bridge Action Shooters

http://www.glockforum.com/forum/f31/unintended-target-41171/

 

[falcon123]

And he had a white shirt too, looking like one of the targets.

I thought he was one of the targets. A moving target.

 

[not new guy]

A couple of extra pieces of brass ain't worth it.

 

[Another_David]

A couple of extra pieces of brass ain't worth it.

seriously.

brass pickers gonna pick!

It looked to me like he was fixing the target though

when you rewatch it you can see him 27 seconds in and what's really scary is before that you can see dirt kicking up right near where he's standing. that was really close.

if you have barriers creating an obstructed view you need to go down range and check every time.

 

[bill o]

A couple of extra pieces of brass ain't worth it.

He may have been shooting super comp though.

 

[not new guy]

Alright, maybe it was worth it if that's the case.

 

[Dnotarianni]

I've seen this video in several places and have yet to get a legal thought. Question is if the brass rat got shot or killed who is getting charged? Do we criminaly charge the shooter who was cleared in hot on the stage and didn't realize there was a live target in the stage where none should have been, or do we charge the RO who cleared the shooter in hot? Don't forget the civil action against the shooter, RO, stage designer and club. Liabilty climbs even higher if the RO wasn't trained and certified.

 

[M1911]

I've seen this video in several places and have yet to get a legal thought. Question is if the brass rat got shot or killed who is getting charged? Do we criminaly charge the shooter who was cleared in hot on the stage and didn't realize there was a live target in the stage where none should have been, or do we charge the RO who cleared the shooter in hot? Don't forget the civil action against the shooter, RO, stage designer and club. Liabilty climbs even higher if the RO wasn't trained and certified.

I don't see a criminal charge against the shooter. He had a reasonable expectation that the RO did his job and cleared the range. I could see a criminal negligence or maybe even manslaughter charge against the RO if the DA was feeling frisky. The typical personal injury attorney move would be to file suit against everyone on the range.

Of course the people with the serious civil liability would be the RO and assistant RO on the stage, plus the match director, and club officials.

IANAL and this is just my ramblings. I am glad I have an umbrella policy.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Question is if the brass rat got shot or killed who is getting charged?

It depends.

In MA, the procedure would be:

If the shooter is a police officer, it is a legitimate accident for which criminal charges are not appropriate.

If the shooter is not a police officer, charges are filed, and it's eventually negotiated to a lesser charge, probably without jail/prison time, after many thousands and loss of gun rights.

 

[Dnotarianni]

It depends.

In MA, the procedure would be:

If the shooter is a police officer, it is a legitimate accident for which criminal charges are not appropriate.

If the shooter is not a police officer, charges are filed, and it's eventually negotiated to a lesser charge, probably without jail/prison time, after many thousands and loss of gun rights.

So guilty until proven broke