Help First M.G. Purchase.

[Guinness1972]

I'm completely new to the M.G. world. Just wanted some advice on first purchases.
What would a you all recommend as a solid first purchase as a M.G. I'd like to stay under 10K if possible. I'm looking for something that I can shoot and not worry about breaking it and not being able to get parts. What is the difference between registered bolt vs. receiver vs ? Any pit falls to avoid? Basically any advice would be appreciated..

 

[seanc]

IMO... I'd go with an uzi.

 

[LoginName]

Vector UZI, one of the few sub $10k full-autos out there.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Take a ride over to Zero Hour Arms and talk with Jim or Marco. They are both very heavily into NFA toys and you can trust their advice. Call first to make sure that both are going to be there on the same day/time and you'll get some good info to chew on.

 

[securityboy]

There is nothing wrong with an UZI, BUT I always recommend buying the most expensive MG you can affaord at the time (cuz everything is only going to get more expensive) In the current market if you have around 10K I'd get an M16, if you are willing to look around you should be able to find RR (registered reciever) conversion guns and RDIAS's (Registered Drop In Auto Sears) for under 10K (in 16's either go RR or RDIAS, avoid the guns that have DIAS's "married" to them) But regardless with 10k to play,I'd go M16 its the LEGO of MG's.

As for what's what? Its pretty much what it sounds like, Register recievers=the gun is the MG, register bolts = the bolt is the MG, Registered sears = the sear are the "guns"

As for what's better, it really depends on the "type" of gun. In the HK family registered sears are "better" than reciever guns because you can move your pack from gun to gun (so 1 sear gets you the option of everything from an MP5-HK21), where as in the uzi family non blocked reciever guns are "better" than bolt guns, because you can switch calibers (which obviously you can't do with a bolt as it is only 1 caliber)

PS. since you are from Hanson and into MG's, I'll go on a limb and guess your a member of Hanson Rod and Gun, if so just come down to one of the MG committee meetings and there are plenty of us guys there who can talk to you about the ins and outs of that great "first" MG buy...

 

[one-eyed Jack]

A long ride for you, but if you were to go Green and come to the Monadnock shoot in NH, you would find a few of us there with subguns that you could "try before you buy". Unless you have already been shooting the various guns, that is. Jack.

 

[BDMerc1]

I would consider a S&W 76 at around $6K. Aftermarket parts can be easily obtained and it is more practical than a MAC 10.

They are also considered C&R guns, so if you decide to sell, you have a lot more potential buyers. Best of all they are generally quite reliable since they are a true SMG, not a conversion of a semi-auto gun.

Registered bolt vs. registered receiver usually applies to UZI's. Difference is the bolt being considered the registered part as opposed to the gun (receiver). Reason I would not recommend an UZI is that unless you get some range time with it before buying it, you may end up with an unreliable gun. All conversions are not created equal, and Vector does not have a flawless track record.

If its a real IMI UZI, it would be no contest since the "real thing" is one of the best SMG's ever produced. Only problem is a real (transferable) UZI would probably set you back $20K or more, since not that many were imported prior to the 1986 ban.

 

[huckleberry]

If you have up to 10K, I would Get a Registered Reciever AR made by either Sendra/Olympic/Bushmaster/Colt SP1/ or other various makers. You can find 1 for around 9k if you are patient, it is a buyers market. Uzi is cool, but I would go straight to the 16. I own an Uzi, a 16 and a beltfed. For me the beltfed is the most fun, followed by the 16

 

[BDMerc1]

In the HK family registered sears are "better" than reciever guns because you can move your pack from gun to gun (so 1 sear gets you the option of everything from an MP5-HK21),...

I think with the HK registered sear, you are paying a whole lot of money for a small piece of metal. Yes, you can sometimes move the trigger pack to different guns, but they do require modification before the trigger pack can be installed. If the sear is "married" to a particular gun, you can't legally use it in another "sear ready" gun, so then there is no advantage to a sear gun over a registered receiver gun.

As for a registered receiver gun, you can repair any part of the gun or even replace any part of the gun (except of course the receiver).

I've stayed away from HK sear guns for the simple reason that I don't believe you can legally repair/ replace a broken/worn out registered sear. Of course, I don't know if it is possible to wear out or break a registered sear, but since that little piece of steel costs over twenty times its weight in gold, I'll make sure I never personally find out! Not better but possibly safer to stick with non-conversion machine guns or at least registered receiver guns - JMHO.

 

[s4mt3k]

wow... had no idea machine guns were that expensive. I'll pass on the permit till I'm rich (prolly never).

 

[BDMerc1]

wow... had no idea machine guns were that expensive. I'll pass on the permit till I'm rich (prolly never).

You can get a Sten gun for around $3K and a MAC-10 (depending on model and manufacturer) from anwhere between $3.5K and $5K.
Prices reflect the fact that their is only a limited pool of transferable guns out there. Since 1986 it has been illegal to produce any full auto weapon for sale/transfer to anyone other than certain licensees or for the military or police.

20 years ago everyone thought prices were high. Presently, the same complaint, as some quality guns and rare guns have tripled in value. I can bet that in ten years from now, they won't be any cheaper.
Supply and Demand!

 

[one-eyed Jack]

You can get a Sten gun for around $3K and a MAC-10 (depending on model and manufacturer) from anwhere between $3.5K and $5K.
Prices reflect the fact that their is only a limited pool of transferable guns out there. Since 1986 it has been illegal to produce any full auto weapon for sale/transfer to anyone other than certain licensees or for the military or police.

20 years ago everyone thought prices were high. Presently, the same complaint, as some quality guns and rare guns have tripled in value. I can bet that in ten years from now, they won't be any cheaper.
Supply and Demand!

And to think that way back when I was able to bring in a post sample 1928 Thompson for $500 and a post sample Grease Gun for $200. That's why I like to bring them to the group shoots so that the guys and gals can have fun putting mileage on them while I still have them, which won't be forever. Jack.

 

[seanc]

Looking at the responses.. I think what it really comes down to is that you have to try out a bunch of guns to see what you like.
There are quite a few options out there for the price range you're considering.


The best piece of advice I can give you is to shoot as many as you can and decide based on your likes above all else. As as person that has sunk a bunch of cash into class iii goodies that they ended up not liking. It is a really long process to end up with something you are not going to be happy with so, do the work on the front end. Buy what you like based on you liking it.

Any sort of thoughts of how much return on investment should pretty much be the icing on the cake and not the deciding factor, unless you are buying this purely as a speculative investment.

 

[securityboy]

I think with the HK registered sear, you are paying a whole lot of money for a small piece of metal. Yes, you can sometimes move the trigger pack to different guns, but they do require modification before the trigger pack can be installed. If the sear is "married" to a particular gun, you can't legally use it in another "sear ready" gun, so then there is no advantage to a sear gun over a registered receiver gun.

Swapping out hammers/springs/ect, really isn't a lot of work... No advantage to a HK sear gun over RR gun??? Are you crazy???How about ONE SEAR gets you an MP5,G3, 33, 23, 53, 51, 21 etc, etc, for A WHOLE LOT LESS $$$ than buying all those guns as RR guns...Almost to the point of you could have the above 6 "hosts" +1 sear for about the same price as any TWO of those guns as RR guns...

As for a registered receiver gun, you can repair any part of the gun or even replace any part of the gun (except of course the receiver)...

You can do all that plus replace the reciever on a register sear gun

I've stayed away from HK sear guns for the simple reason that I don't believe you can legally repair/ replace a broken/worn out registered sear...

Who ever told you you cant repair a sear is completely wrong, what reason would there be to prevent that???Of course doubt you'l find a way to break one to begin with...

 

[seanc]

Swapping out hammers/springs/ect, really isn't a lot of work....

I only had to swap the extractor on my pack to go between my mp5/ 5k and a g3. The springs and the hammers all worked fine.

There is not a heck of a lot to go wrong with a sear. While I am sure that they can break, I am not sure that this is a common happening.

 

[securityboy]

I only had to swap the extractor on my pack to go between my mp5/ 5k and a g3. The springs and the hammers all worked fine.

There is not a heck of a lot to go wrong with a sear. While I am sure that they can break, I am not sure that this is a common happening.

Even better only one part that needs swapping out, (I haven't played H&K in about 10 years) You've backed up the two points I was getting,

1.swapping between guns isn't real difficult...
2. there are better things to worry about than a sear breaking...

 

[BDMerc1]

Does your paperwork not mention in the comments section "serial #xxxx sear installed in HK MP5 reciever serial #xxxx"?

This should be taken literally. I wouldn't want to be in your shoes if ATFE or some other knowledgable L.E. asked to see your paperwork on your G3 or 33 when the sear is married to a specific serial numbered MP-5. I think that would put you in possesion of an unregistered Machine Gun, not to mention "illegal manufacture of a machine gun".

I'd also hate to be the guy that convinced someone that "swapping sears" between guns is the way to save money and have multiple MG's with only one registered part, and they get in trouble as a result. If you call ATFE I think they will advise against it (Talk to someone in Technology; the Examiners don't always know "the Rules"!)

As for sear guns being the best and most desireable, why is it you rarely see registered receiver, swing down lower MP-5's for sale, and when you do they are priced thousands over a sear gun? I can point you in the direction of over 20 MP-5 sear guns currently for sale, I don't know of anyone (Dealer or otherwise) currently offering a registered receiver, swing down lower MP-5, 33, or even a G3.

Just my observations.

 

[seanc]

Does your paperwork not mention in the comments section "serial #xxxx sear installed in HK MP5 reciever serial #xxxx"?

This should be taken literally. I wouldn't want to be in your shoes if ATFE or some other knowledgable L.E. asked to see your paperwork on your G3 or 33 when the sear is married to a specific serial numbered MP-5. I think that would put you in possesion of an unregistered Machine Gun, not to mention "illegal manufacture of a machine gun".

I'd also hate to be the guy that convinced someone that "swapping sears" between guns is the way to save money and have multiple MG's with only one registered part, and they get in trouble as a result. If you call ATFE I think they will advise against it (Talk to someone in Technology; the Examiners don't always know "the Rules"!)

As for sear guns being the best and most desireable, why is it you rarely see registered receiver, swing down lower MP-5's for sale, and when you do they are priced thousands over a sear gun? I can point you in the direction of over 20 MP-5 sear guns currently for sale, I don't know of anyone (Dealer or otherwise) currently offering a registered receiver, swing down lower MP-5, 33, or even a G3.

Just my observations.

My sear is a sear on it's own form.

My hk51 was a married sear gun. But, there is no issue to divorce the sear from the host. In the case of the 51, I would need to have form 1'd the 51 as an sbr to legally remove the sear. (otherwise it would be an unregistered SBR)

But, once the gun was legal as a stand alone piece, it would have just been a notification of amendment on the form 4 that the sear was on to be able to swap it around. It happens all the time. It is not a huge or uncommon issue.
This is also the beauty of a sear that if you buy a cheap HK knock off and totally destroy the host you are not out a ton of money (for the NFA portion). I heard quite a few stories about people converting clone G3s in to belt feds when parts were available. The cheap receivers did not hold up well, they'd remove the sear and the real HK belt parts, install them one another cheap G3 clone and proceed to destroy that one..


The sear IS the machine gun as far as ATF is concerned. Installing a sear into a host does not make the host a machine gun, the sear is always the registered machine gun.

 

[securityboy]

Seanc covered the paper work / legal aspect, so I will just address this...

As for sear guns being the best and most desireable, why is it you rarely see registered receiver, swing down lower MP-5's for sale, and when you do they are priced thousands over a sear gun? I can point you in the direction of over 20 MP-5 sear guns currently for sale, I don't know of anyone (Dealer or otherwise) currently offering a registered receiver, swing down lower MP-5, 33, or even a G3.

Why??? (with regard to swing down RR HK's) Easy there are ALOT LESS of them than sears & they are closest to "factory". So yes they tend to be more expensive (of course that certainly isnt the case with non swing down RR HK's). And further I think you will find the bulk of "swing down" G3's are now 21E's...

That said I think you have helped in making my point...cost...from a "shooters" stand point they are all "conversion guns"...So with ONE SEAR can have the whole HK family for tens of thousands of dollars less than you could even if you bought the fairly undesirable "non swing down" RR family, and probably close to $100,000 less than the "swing down" family...

 

[BDMerc1]

Seanc covered the paper work / legal aspect, so I will just address this...
Why??? (with regard to swing down RR HK's) Easy there are ALOT LESS of them than sears & they are closest to "factory". So yes they tend to be more expensive (of course that certainly isnt the case with non swing down RR HK's). And further I think you will find the bulk of "swing down" G3's are now 21E's...

That said I think you have helped in making my point...cost...from a "shooters" stand point they are all "conversion guns"...So with ONE SEAR can have the whole HK family for tens of thousands of dollars less than you could even if you bought the fairly undesirable "non swing down" RR family, and probably close to $100,000 less than the "swing down" family...

RE-READ my response ! Not if the sear is "married" to the receiver. Again, call ATFE and don't give advice until you know what you are saying. Can you switch sears to different guns - yes. Is it a practice, that if ATFE finds out about can land you in legal trouble - yes again!

 

[seanc]

RE-READ my response ! Not if the sear is "married" to the receiver. Again, call ATFE and don't give advice until you know what you are saying. Can you switch sears to different guns - yes. Is it a practice, that if ATFE finds out about can land you in legal trouble - yes again!

That is not correct. You can file an amended form 4 with ATF and un-marry the sear from the host gun.
If you have a registered sear installed in say an sp89 or G3.. You can remove the FA pack and put on a semi pack (remove all evil features) and take it out and shoot it as a title 1 gun. You can also send it to a smith to have work done on it as a title 1 gun (no form 5).


You can also, UN SBR a rifle.
You can Un AOW many pistol/ combos
You can chop down the bbl on an SBR or SBS or DD (not an AOW in mass) shorter than what is on the form.
All by amending the forms w/ atf.


ATF very well may have changed things, but this to my knowledge has always been the case.

 

[BDMerc1]

That is not correct. You can file an amended form 4 with ATF and un-marry the sear from the host gun.

Your above comment makes my point. It's not a simple case of just switching out a registered auto sear to the HK host gun of your choice. First you have to have a sear ready host gun (a number of modifications required if you have a semi-auto gun), and second you have to "un-marry" the sear from the original host gun through a Form 4, which everyone knows is a process that is no different for an individual than a Form 4 transfer!

We are totally off topic from the original post, since a HK sear, sear pack, or even registered receiver gun is not a good choice for a least cost, first, Class 3 gun.

 

[securityboy]

Your above comment makes my point. It's not a simple case of just switching out a registered auto sear to the HK host gun of your choice. First you have to have a sear ready host gun (a number of modifications required if you have a semi-auto gun), and second you have to "un-marry" the sear from the original host gun through a Form 4, which everyone knows is a process that is no different for an individual than a Form 4 transfer!

We are totally off topic from the original post, since a HK sear, sear pack, or even registered receiver gun is not a good choice for a least cost, first, Class 3 gun.

LOOK I don't know what else to tell you, you either have this issue totally confused or are intentionally cluster F-ing a routine thing.
YOU ONLY HAVE TO "UN-MARRY" THE SEAR IF IT HAPPENS TO HAVE BEEN MARRIED IN THE FIRST PLACE (most sears are not married). Once "un married" you can swap your pack between guns as you please...As for being "sear ready" if I don't consider swapping out the bolt carrier to be "a number of modifications" (you'd already have your registered sear in a pack)....

As for off topic...OP has $10K to spend and asked for explanations about registered bolt, receivers, etc, seems to be on topic to me...course I would recommend an M16 as a first gun if you have $10K spend...

 

[BDMerc1]

>>>As for what's better, it really depends on the "type" of gun. In the HK family registered sears are "better" than reciever guns because you can move your pack from gun to gun (so 1 sear gets you the option of everything from an MP5-HK21), <<<

Isn't this your quote? Once the sear goes in a pack, and gets installed in a specific receiver, the paperwork marries the sear to that receiver, right?

If you are suggesting that you originally recommended "a registered sear" as a first MG I don't think you are going to find one for $10K or under, and for that sear to become a machine gun, the guy is going to have to buy a sear ready HK 91/93/94 or pay a gunsmith to convert a semi-auto so it will accept the trigger pack assy. If you can accomplish the whole deal for under $16K (gun, sear, trigger pack, and labor) and don't mind the year or so wait for a qualified C2 to do the work, you will be doing pretty good.

Unless of course you meant the guy should buy the sear and go to the range and make sound effects like he is shooting a M.G., he can probably do that for about $3K over budget (Last sear I saw for sale sold for $13K).

Enough said on my end..........your last post leads me to believe you are getting irritated, and I was only trying to clarify the difference between what you can do and probably get away with vs. what you can do that won't create issues between you and the ATFE. The whole idea of marrying sears to specific receivers was ATFE's attempt to PREVENT people from doing what you are saying you can do.

You can own a registered auto sear and yes, it has the potential to go into any of the HK series guns. Once it is installed in a trigger pack and said trigger pack is installed on a specific gun, that is where it is suppose to stay, unless you want to go through the paperwork with ATFE to move it to another gun.

 

[BDMerc1]

BTW...If swapping out the bolt carrier is the only modification that you think needs to be done to a semi-auto HK before a clipped and pinned M.G. trigger pack can be installed, you are quite mistaken.

 

[seanc]

BTW...If swapping out the bolt carrier is the only modification that you think needs to be done to a semi-auto HK before a clipped and pinned M.G. trigger pack can be installed, you are quite mistaken.

Un marrying the sear from the host is a simple procedure. There is no additional cleo sign off, prints/ pics or $$. It is all handled in writing between the owner and ATF. I have not done it personally but have been told it is very quick.

As for the differences in a semi vs FA host gun. The only thing that needs to be done is weld up the bolt carrier to trip the sear. Although I am not 100% on the legal aspects, I don't believe there is an issue with having a welded (FA) bolt carrier in a a title 1 gun. I have seen many title 1 clones (cetme specifically) come from the factory with the FA bolt carriers, ATF never seemed to have an issue there.

So, to answer your initial question.
Yes, I really do think the only modification needing to be done to a host gun is to pop the trigger group on, as long as the bolt carrier is modified. And if you have the modified bolt carrier, I don't see any reason that you would swap it out going from semi to FA.

 

[securityboy]

>>>As for what's better, it really depends on the "type" of gun. In the HK family registered sears are "better" than reciever guns because you can move your pack from gun to gun (so 1 sear gets you the option of everything from an MP5-HK21), <<< Isn't this your quote? Once the sear goes in a pack, and gets installed in a specific receiver, the paperwork marries the sear to that receiver, right?

NO, NO, NO...why can't you understand this NO...the paper work DOES NOT MARRY the sear to the gun. (yes some sears are "married" to guns but most are not)

Unless of course you meant the guy should buy the sear and go to the range and make sound effects like he is shooting a M.G., he can probably do that for about $3K over budget (Last sear I saw for sale sold for $13K).

#1. two sears that sold last month went for $11,500 (not 13k) then all one would need to start out is a $800 "bobcat MP5" clone (or $500 century G3 or C93). Not saying he would but if he already had $10K and really wanted an HK, I bet he could save up another $2000... (Or get all three cheap hosts and still be well under the 16K you are claiming)

...your last post leads me to believe you are getting irritated, and I was only trying to clarify the difference between what you can do and probably get away with vs. what you can do that won't create issues between you and the ATFE. The whole idea of marrying sears to specific receivers was ATFE's attempt to PREVENT people from doing what you are saying you can do. You can own a registered auto sear and yes, it has the potential to go into any of the HK series guns. Once it is installed in a trigger pack and said trigger pack is installed on a specific gun, that is where it is suppose to stay, unless you want to go through the paperwork with ATFE to move it to another gun.

We are getting irritated because you are arguing nonsense against information that is just plain fairly well known in the "MG world". Further your statements and phrasing that one might be able to "get away with it" implying wrong doing is just plain wrong. With a registered sear, THE SEAR IS THE MACHINE GUN, THE PAPERS ARE "ON" THE SEAR NOT THE HOST

BTW...If swapping out the bolt carrier is the only modification that you think needs to be done to a semi-auto HK before a clipped and pinned M.G. trigger pack can be installed, you are quite mistaken.

Once you have your sear in a pack (which you would) yes that is all that needs to be done (swapping or welding the carrier)...if you disagree list what else NEEDS to be done...

 

[Jimmy2Times]

Securityboy, remember what I keep telling you?

 

[BDMerc1]

"I don't believe there is an issue with having a welded (FA) bolt carrier in a a title 1 gun. As for the differences in a semi vs FA host gun. The only thing that needs to be done is weld up the bolt carrier to trip the sear."

Again, I factually disagree. I don't believe you should be giving advice without knowing what you are saying. A semi-auto host HK will not take a M.G. trigger pack unless the receiver (where the front push pin would be installed on a M.G.) has been machined down to allow its installation. This is one of several features of the semi-auto HK guns that allowed them to be imported and sold, per ATFE, so as to prevent "basement tinkerers" from converting the guns from semi-auto to full auto with ease! With the UZI, its the receiver blocking bar and differences in the receiver. With the Sterling, its the strip of metal welded to the inside bottom of the receiver to prevent a F.A. bolt from being installed, as well as the receiver mods that prevent the installation of a select fire trigger pack.

Things I state are not based on my beliefs or theories, but what I know based on comparisons of transferable or Dealer Sample M.G.'s and their title one counterparts. What machine guns do you own that you can share actual experience with, rather than what you believe to be true?

As for welding up bolt carriers to F.A. machine gun specs., I wouldn't recommend that. Just as it is illegal to put a full auto bolt carrier in a semi-auto AR-15, same goes. Will anyone know the difference? Probably not. But I'd rather err on the side of caution than do something that a Compliance Agent has told me is not legal.

I'm not saying I know everything, nor am I trying to pick an argument to prove I know more than anyone else. Two simple facts exist: on any given day you can get two totally different answers from ATFE as to what is legal and what is not, and second, there are people that are class 2 manufacturers for a reason, they know how to safely and legally manufacture/ convert guns into full auto as opposed to a lot of people that think they know, but don't.

 

[EasyD]

BDMerc1, you are an idiot.

A full-auto bolt is just a part, and does not make a firearm full auto. It is not illegal to put a full-auto bolt or carrier into a semi H&K roller-locked firearm or an AR-15 pattern firearm.

U.S. Department of Justice

Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco
Firearms and Explosives

903050:RV
3311/2005-167
[url]www.atf.gov[/url]

Legal Department

Mr. Carlton S. Chen
Colt Defense LLC
547 New Park Avenue
West Hartford, CT 06110

Dear Mr. Chen:

This is in reference to your most recent facsimile transmitted to the Firearms Technology Branch (FTB), Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF), on January 13, 2005. In your faxed letter, you seek clarification regarding the use of M16 machinegun bolt carriers in AR-15 type weapons.

As you are aware, since your provision of copies of relevant material in your previous faxes, ATF has previously addressed the use of M16 machinegun fire-control components in AR-15 type rifles in the General Information section of the Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide (ATF P 5300.4). (Please refer to page 115, item #3, “Important Information Concerning AR-15 Type Rifles.â€)

However, we would like to direct your attention to a particular paragraph of item #3, which states the following:

In order to avoid violations of the NFA, M16 hammers, triggers, disconnectors, selectors and bolt carriers must not be used in assembly of AR-15 type semiautomatic rifles, unless the M16 parts have been modified to AR-15 Model SP1 configuration. Any AR-15 type rifles which have been assembled with M16 internal components should have those parts removed and replaced with AR-15 Model SP1 type parts which are available commercially. The M16 components also may be modified to AR-15 Model SP1 configuration.

Accordingly, based on previous FTB recommendations not to install this bolt carrier and the conclusions presented in the passage cited above, our Branch cannot specifically authorize you to install an M16 bolt carrier into an AR15 rifle. Also, we cannot definitively tell you that installing an M16 bolt carrier in an AR 15 will make that firearm fire automatically.

We can only inform you that if this installation were to create a firearm that fires automatically, it would be a machinegun as defined; conversely, if it did not result in the production of a weapon that shoots automatically, it would be lawful to posses and make.

We thank you for your inquiry and trust the foregoing has been responsive.

Sincerely yours,

[signed]

Sterling Nixon
Chief, Firearms Technology Branch

Also: http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/ATF M16 Letter.pdf

As far as welding up H&K carriers to function with registered sears, this is a commonly accepted method, and for many years was the only option for those that wanted a full-auto H&K type firearm, as factory full-auto parts where very hard to find in the US before about 10-15 years ago.

Not only do you not know everything, which you've already stated, you clearly know just enough to make huge amounts of trouble for people that won't know better then to listen to you. Please take your stupid ass out of the NFA forum.

--EasyD