Has anyone tried suing the state about being denied a CCW

[hminsky]

I was wondering, if someone had applied for a CCW in MA and been denied for no good reason, and then was assaulted, could they sue the state for putting them in danger? Seems like a good route to get the law changed.

 

[Finalygotabeltfed]

I think it might fall on the local chief of police frst,(if it were to come to that type of suit) he's the issuing authority.

I'd bet the state exempts itself from this type of procecution

 

[Scrivener]

I was wondering, if someone had applied for a CCW in MA and been denied for no good reason, and then was assaulted, could they sue the state for putting them in danger? Seems like a good route to get the law changed.

Hardly. As anyone who holds a resident LTC - or even reads this forum occasionally - is fully aware, the state does not issue them; local chiefs do. So much for the "sue the state" theory.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

I would expect a pre-requisite to suing the state would be to reserve your rights.

in case someone missed the reference.

 

[dwarven1]

Hardly. As anyone who holds a resident LTC - or even reads this forum occasionally - is fully aware, the state does not issue them; local chiefs do. So much for the "sue the state" theory.

Actually, there is a good question in there... can you sue the COP? Or does that fall under the "Cops are not required to protect you" sort of thing?

Just wondering.

 

[SKS Ray]

What I wanna know is will GOAL gather enough evidence to bring forth unlawful licensing procedures? I'm ready to send in my renewal papers to the GOAL office when its time next year because I KNOW New Bedford will have the biggest high wire/jump through hoops act that will make Ringling Bros look like amateurs.
I'm already thinking about a lawyer for when I renew. Scriv, and all you other NES lawyers out there... I have high end milsurp rifles to trade for legal help if the need should come next year.

 

[Scrivener]

Actually, there is a good question in there... can you sue the COP? Or does that fall under the "Cops are not required to protect you" sort of thing?

Just wondering.

Wondering my a** - you know bloody well that is the case. For THE case, see Warren, Douglas and Tagliaferro v. District of Columbia; 444 A. 2nd 1.

 

[Scrivener]

I'm already thinking about a lawyer for when I renew. Scriv, and all you other NES lawyers out there... I have high end milsurp rifles to trade for legal help if the need should come next year.

OK, who put "Will work for weapons" on their card?

 

[RKG]

An action against the Commonwealth, a municipal employer, or a municipal employee based on failure to take an action (licensing) that would prevent or diminish the consequences of violent or tortious conduct of a third person would most likely be barred by G.L. (2004 ed.) ch. 258, sec. 10(j).

 

[dwarven1]

Wondering my a** - you know bloody well that is the case. For THE case, see Warren, Douglas and Tagliaferro v. District of Columbia; 444 A. 2nd 1.

Actually, Keith, no I do not. As for the case you cite, why would a case involving the District of Columbia have any bearing on the Commonwealth of Massachusetts?

Let me rephrase my question so even you can understand it: Can the Chief of Police in a Massachusetts city or town be sued if he denies a person an LTC and said person is subsequently injured or killed since said person did not have the means to defend him or herself?

 

[Len-2A Training]

I haven't read the referenced case, but TTBOMK he's right.

There was a case in Canton, MA where a woman had a restraining order, the guy had threatened to kill her, the PD said "call when he shows up to kill you" (in essence). He came to "visit her", killed her . . . and the PD was "NOT RESPONSIBLE"! In no way would they have issued her a LTC so that she could defend herself . . . standard answer, yell and call 911 and die!

This is SOP! PD is NOT responsible to assist you to defend yourself.

 

[dwarven1]

I haven't read the referenced case, but TTBOMK he's right.

There was a case in Canton, MA where a woman had a restraining order, the guy had threatened to kill her, the PD said "call when he shows up to kill you" (in essence). He came to "visit her", killed her . . . and the PD was "NOT RESPONSIBLE"! In no way would they have issued her a LTC so that she could defend herself . . . standard answer, yell and call 911 and die!

This is SOP! PD is NOT responsible to assist you to defend yourself.

And they're not responsible even if they're PREVENTING you from defending yourself? Now THAT is just wrong...

 

[Moderator]

And they're not responsible even if they're PREVENTING you from defending yourself? Now THAT is just wrong...

So, who else wants out of this state?

 

[Scrivener]

What town had that cretin dispatcher who unilaterally decided a woman calling in an attack was faking and didn't bother to bring the matter to anyone else's attention? Marlboro?

Someone competent was reviewing the tape later that day, heard the woman's call and dispatched an officer. He found her body.

They fired the DC dispatcher - lot of good THAT did.

 

[Admin]

What town had that cretin dispatcher who unilaterally decided a woman calling in an attack was faking and didn't bother to bring the matter to anyone else's attention? Marlboro?

Someone competent was reviewing the tape later that day, heard the woman's call and dispatched an officer. He found her body.

They fired the DC dispatcher - lot of good THAT did.

That was in MA???

 

[Garys]

What town had that cretin dispatcher who unilaterally decided a woman calling in an attack was faking and didn't bother to bring the matter to anyone else's attention? Marlboro?

Someone competent was reviewing the tape later that day, heard the woman's call and dispatched an officer. He found her body.

They fired the DC dispatcher - lot of good THAT did.

I know a lot about that particular case, even if I can't remember the town off hand. The call was listened to by a PO that day, who agreed with the dispatcher that no response was needed. The dispatcher was scapegoated to save the asses of sworn personnel. IIRC, the person who made the no send decision was a superior officer, not the dispatcher.

As to the original question, my non lawyerly question is that the licensing officer is protected because issuance is a discretionary, not ministerial duty.

Lawyers on the list, what say ye?

Gary

 

[dwarven1]

What town had that cretin dispatcher who unilaterally decided a woman calling in an attack was faking and didn't bother to bring the matter to anyone else's attention? Marlboro?

Someone competent was reviewing the tape later that day, heard the woman's call and dispatched an officer. He found her body.

They fired the DC dispatcher - lot of good THAT did.

Do you by any chance know when this happened or have a link to it? I'd be interested in seeing what was written up in the local papers...

 

[Garys]

Do you by any chance know when this happened or have a link to it? I'd be interested in seeing what was written up in the local papers...

It was about ten years ago and may well have been Marlboro. It was certainly out that way. I don't know if any of the story is on line. As I wrote, I know at least one of the people involved and know that there was a lot more to the story than made the press. Like that's a surprise.

gary

 

[Lynne]

So, who else wants out of this state?

Dear one, you have to ask??

I read in today's Eagle Tribune that the former Marine, Daniel Cotnoir is trying to get his license back. Let me find the story and I'll post the link....

Here it is. It doesn't look too promising for him, but I wish him all the best.

http://www.eagletribune.com/local/local_story_351115250

Cotnoir presses for return of gun license

By Jim Patten , Staff Writer
Eagle-Tribune

LAWRENCE - Daniel Cotnoir isn't giving up his quest to win back his gun license.

The Lawrence funeral director and decorated Marine sergeant has filed suit in Lawrence Superior Court, seeking judicial review of a district court decision that said police Chief John Romero had the right to revoke the license.

"We are stating the district court has made some errors of law," said Cotnoir lawyer Peter J. Caruso.

The license was revoked over a shooting incident in August 2005.

Cotnoir, 27, was charged with firing a 12-gauge shotgun from a second-floor window of his Broadway home in the direction of a crowd outside a nearby nightclub. A 15-year-old girl and a 20-year-old man were struck by pellet fragments and suffered minor injuries.

A month before the incident, Cotnoir was honored as Marine of the Year for attending to troops killed in Iraq.

Cotnoir was indicted on two counts of assault and battery with a dangerous weapon and a single count of discharging a firearm within 500 feet of a building.

In June, a superior court jury cleared him of all three charges, but 12 days after his acquittal, Romero sent him a letter, informing him that his license to carry a firearm was revoked, saying his conduct on Aug. 13 made him unsuitable to have a gun license.

Cotnoir appealed Romero's action to a district court judge, presenting evidence that he was a suitable person to hold a gun license.

But Judge Kevin Gaffney upheld the chief. In a short ruling, he said "the decision of the Chief of Police was neither arbitrary, capricious or an abuse of discretion."

Caruso said Gaffney erred by failing to address the issue of whether Cotnoir was a suitable person for a gun license.

He argues that before a license to carry firearms can be issued or revoked, the law requires the licensing authority to first determine whether the applicant is a suitable person and then to determine whether the applicant has demonstrated a proper purpose for carrying a gun.

Caruso also argues that Gaffney could not consider the Aug. 13 shooting incident because "a jury has found Mr. Cotnoir not guilty on each and every count."

He said he could not find any other case in Massachusetts law in which someone charged with a crime lost his gun license after being acquitted.

Romero said yesterday he was confident his decision would stand the test in the higher court.

"No superior court judge is going to reverse a lower court judge based on that judge's opinion," Romero said.

"Mr. Cotnoir is exercising his legal options. We are prepared to defend this at the next level," Romero said.

Cotnoir referred all questions to Caruso and declined to comment on the filing.

 

[RKG]

What town had that cretin dispatcher who unilaterally decided a woman calling in an attack was faking and didn't bother to bring the matter to anyone else's attention? Marlboro?

Someone competent was reviewing the tape later that day, heard the woman's call and dispatched an officer. He found her body.

They fired the DC dispatcher - lot of good THAT did.

The incident in question occurred in Lexington, and it was, I believe, more than 10 years ago. Sometime during the last half (I'd like to say about 0300 or so), the Fire Alarm operator received a hand-off from Verizon. The caller had dialed "0", and there was no call delivery information. The Verizon operator could not understand what the caller was saying.

Two Fire Alarm operators had the same problem. They listened to the Eventide recording several times. And, while this was going on, the PD was receiving numerous prank calls; that is to say, both calls about "kids" running around town creating havoc and some false calls to the PD. The FAO monitored the police calls and were aware of what was going on at that end.

What the Fire Alarm operator should have done was to wake the Captain, who was the ranking officer in the house at the time. However, that Captain had a bad reputation for mistreating folks who woke him during the night. Eventually, the FAO did nothing.

The next morning, the recording was listened to by a number of folks on the oncoming group. One of them thought he could decipher an address. The PD was sent to the address and a woman was found DOA, having been stabbed during the night by a burglar, who was later charged, convicted and sentenced for Armed Invasion and Murder 2.

The ME's conclusion, which I think was correct, was that death was not instantaneous, and the call was probably placed by the woman, who, because of her injuries, was not able to speak with mucy intelligibility.

The FAO was, as noted, fired. I leave to others to form a judgment as to fairness or motivation of his discharge, but will observe that prior to that incident he was both highly regarded and decorated, and since that time (another Department having scooped him up) he remains highly regarded.

I know the individuals in question and I was at the scene (a couple of days later, and unofficially, I should add).

I've found some notes, and I believe the incident occurred in August, 1992.

 

[Admin]

That's a shame...

 

[dwarven1]

Thanks for the clarification, RKG. This, to me, sounds like a true Mongolian flustercluck with no good points to it at all - tragedy all around. And it sounds to me like that Fire Captain needs to be censured for making his people afraid to wake him. Or at least he needs a smack in the head. You CANNOT be effective in your job, WHATEVER it is, if your people are afraid to tell you the truth. Or go to you when they need advice.

Best guy I ever worked for once told me that my job was to keep him out of trouble. Since at the time, doing that meant that I had to ride herd on several regional managers... and my title was Operations Specialist. I asked him who would keep me out of trouble. His reply? "That's MY job!"

I'd go back and work for him today in a heartbeat.

 

[Scrivener]

RKG - Thanks for the detailed background on that tragedy.

 

[GaryO]

All I know is by instigating a lawsuit your chances of ever being issued a LTC would drop considerably.

 

[Garys]

Thanks for the refresher RKG. I know the dispatcher, although I haven't seen him in a number of years. Last I heard he was a fire fighter, which is what he always wanted to be.

Gary

 

[RKG]

Thanks for the refresher RKG. I know the dispatcher, although I haven't seen him in a number of years. Last I heard he was a fire fighter, which is what he always wanted to be.

Gary

He is a Firefighter/EMT and also a Fire Alarm operator (not full time) for the same Department. (And, lest anyone have missed it before, a good guy.)

 

[Garys]

He is a Firefighter/EMT and also a Fire Alarm operator (not full time) for the same Department. (And, lest anyone have missed it before, a good guy.)

To be technical, he's a FF/Paramedic. I went to medic school with him, which is how I know. He was a good guy back then, and I don't expect that he changed much over the years.

I didn't know about the FAO part, though.

Gary

 

[RKG]

If you know the channel, you'll hear him on the radio from time to time.

 

[Garys]

If you know the channel, you'll hear him on the radio from time to time.

Once I remember the town. I actually know some other people who have kept in touch with him so if I can't remember, I'll ask. In fact, I think his mug was in a picture on one of the firebuff sites recently.

Gary