Gun Safe: Electronic lock?

[turbo38gn]

I'm a computer guy, and I can tell you electronic locks WILL fail in your time of need.

This has to be the funniest post here... for that matter on the IT.. what does being a computer guy got to do with anything in this thread. Does that make you an expert on refrigeraters too... can you tell me when and if that's gonna fail!!!!!.

 

[whatluck]

This has to be the funniest post here... for that matter on the IT.. what does being a computer guy got to do with anything in this thread. Does that make you an expert on refrigeraters too... can you tell me when and if that's gonna fail!!!!!.

Actually I do know how to fix refrigerators, too. They're certainly a lot simpler than a PC. My point is the more complex a system the more prone it is to failure. And having seen first hand the effects of Murphy's law I always spec everything to the simplest design possible.

Capacitors and transistors have finite life expectancy.

 

[Sputa Arms]

From a safe technicians point of view I install electronic locks in Banks just about everyday..I switch out the mechanical locks and install electronic ones, for the fact of getting into the boxes faster..The bank employees/ tellers use these locks about 20 times a day and these locks last years on end ..In a residential /home application, Even if you go in the safe twice every day a good name like LAGARD or S&G lock is going to last 20 years.. The cheep ones that you get with the gun safe have their share of problems. Now obviously if you have to keep the electronic lock dry, a damp environment in the basement or moisture in the garage can cause problems.

Just my 2 cents

 

[M1911]

Actually I do know how to fix refrigerators, too. They're certainly a lot simpler than a PC. My point is the more complex a system the more prone it is to failure. And having seen first hand the effects of Murphy's law I always spec everything to the simplest design possible.

Capacitors and transistors have finite life expectancy.

Carburetors, distributor caps, and points are a whole lot simpler than fuel injection and electronic ignition. But having grown up driving cars with carburetors, distributor caps, and points, I will never ever go back. Fuel injection and electronic ignition work much better, are far more reliable, and require much less maintenance.

An electronic lock is quite simple. It is a single circuit board. It isn't a PC. An electronic lock is far simpler than any single processor in your car, and yet you probably drive a car with more than a dozen processors in it and you aren't concerned about that.

 

[turbo38gn]

We are all hexed now... All us guys with electronic locks are going to have a failure....

 

[Stef]

You'll all be screwed when your house is hit with an EMP weapon!

 

[ScottS]

From a safe technicians point of view I install electronic locks in Banks just about everyday..I switch out the mechanical locks and install electronic ones, for the fact of getting into the boxes faster..The bank employees/ tellers use these locks about 20 times a day and these locks last years on end ..In a residential /home application, Even if you go in the safe twice every day a good name like LAGARD or S&G lock is going to last 20 years.. The cheep ones that you get with the gun safe have their share of problems. Now obviously if you have to keep the electronic lock dry, a damp environment in the basement or moisture in the garage can cause problems.

Just my 2 cents

Whoa! Whoa! WHOA!

Someone qualified is commenting on the subject under discussion? Is that really the precedent we want to set around here? Is it??

 

[turbo38gn]

Whoa! Whoa! WHOA!

Someone qualified is commenting on the subject under discussion? Is that really the precedent we want to set around here? Is it??

Nice to have an expert come in and support what many of us with actual ownership of electronic locks have shared....

 

[Emoto]

From a safe technicians point of view I install electronic locks in Banks just about everyday..I switch out the mechanical locks and install electronic ones, for the fact of getting into the boxes faster..The bank employees/ tellers use these locks about 20 times a day and these locks last years on end ..In a residential /home application, Even if you go in the safe twice every day a good name like LAGARD or S&G lock is going to last 20 years.. The cheep ones that you get with the gun safe have their share of problems. Now obviously if you have to keep the electronic lock dry, a damp environment in the basement or moisture in the garage can cause problems.

Just my 2 cents

And there we have it.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

A very well respected local locksmith told me he has had several lockouts with the S&G lock. Curiously, this smith also told me he thought the best was the LaGard one where you turn the entire keypad to drive the shaft once you enter the combination. (less electronically moved parts than the ones that have a small motor to drive the shaft)

I visited a major firearms training facility a few years ago that has a walk in safe with a LaGard (might have been S&G, but I know it was one of the two) digital combination with audit trail. The facilities manager told me they had a lockout, but a smith was able to drill the lock and open without drilling the door (the technique involves knowing EXACTLY where to drill, how deep to go, and what you don once you get there).

Of of the members in my club had to have a box drilled on a safe with an electronic lock failure - cost him a bundle.

On the other hand, I have a LaGard on one my safes and it has never given me any problems in 15+ years.

So a marginal difference in reliability should be discounted?

The "reliability issue" with an electronic lock is unique, since a failure will, by design, necessitate that you damage parts of your unit (the safe) other than the lock, except in the rare case when a drill job can be done (and even that may not be possible in damage free way if the safe designer has the sense to locate the electronics other than directly under the keypad - which, is unfortunately all too common, to maintain compatibility with mechanical dial locks).

 

[M1911]

And there we have it.

Mine are Kaba-Mas electronic locks. We haven't had any problems with 5+ years of daily usage. I apologize to you doom-and-gloom types, but you haven't convinced me that they are doomed to failure.

 

[Sputa Arms]

On the other hand, I have a LaGard on one my safes and it has never given me any problems in 15+ years.



The "reliability issue" with an electronic lock is unique, since a failure will, by design, necessitate that you damage parts of your unit (the safe) other than the lock, except in the rare case when a drill job can be done (and even that may not be possible in damage free way if the safe designer has the sense to locate the electronics other than directly under the keypad - which, is unfortunately all too common, to maintain compatibility with mechanical dial locks).

For The "RELIABILITY Issue " I drill open just as many safes with mechanical locks as I do with electronic. The mechanicals are not "Bullet proof" and some times for no reason at all you will be trying to open your safe with the usual combination and the 2nd wheel will be off by 4 numbers.. The commercial applications wreak havoc on the mechanicals..

Its all about the application, businesses open the safe 20x more a week than residential..

As far as the difference between drilling a safe with an electronic as opposed to a mechanical. Depending on what is "WRONG'' with the safe determines the drill point

You are not drilling behind the keypad when you have Hard Plate covering the lock..

OK no more secrets

 

[WillyJP]

I switched to a S&G mechanical lock after my LaGard began to have intermittent failures. I think it was a keypad issue. Never going back to an electronic lock.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

You are not drilling behind the keypad when you have Hard Plate covering the lock.

That is, of course, assuming that the electronic lock is not mounted on a "mechanical compatible" mount that uses the hole where the drive shaft of a mechanical lock would go as the entrance point for the cable. It is my understanding that, in the incident I was referring to, the drilling into, and manipulation of, the control box for the electronic lock was done via this hole.

It would be very straightforward to have a purpose built mount for an electronic lock that had the internal lock box completely covered with hardplate and, even better, located at a point not directly underneath the keypad. That is not, however, a typical configuration.

 

[Emoto]

For The "RELIABILITY Issue " I drill open just as many safes with mechanical locks as I do with electronic. The mechanicals are not "Bullet proof" and some times for no reason at all you will be trying to open your safe with the usual combination and the 2nd wheel will be off by 4 numbers.. The commercial applications wreak havoc on the mechanicals..

Its all about the application, businesses open the safe 20x more a week than residential..

As far as the difference between drilling a safe with an electronic as opposed to a mechanical. Depending on what is "WRONG'' with the safe determines the drill point

You are not drilling behind the keypad when you have Hard Plate covering the lock..

OK no more secrets

Do you have a sense of how old a lock is before it fails? In other words, does it tend to take one type of lock longer before it fails?

 

[je25ff]

So it seems that I could still get a good deal on a safe and just swap out the electronic lock it has for a better one.

 

[CLMN]

So it seems that I could still get a good deal on a safe and just swap out the electronic lock it has for a better one.

Not necessarily. You better check very carefully before going that route if you are set on owning a safe with a mechanical combination lock.

Better to just find a safe with a mechanical combination lock if that is your preference.

CLMN

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Not necessarily. You better check very carefully before going that route if you are set on owning a safe with a mechanical combination lock.

Better to just find a safe with a mechanical combination lock if that is your preference.

CLMN

True for lower end safes that use proprietary electronic locks. Once you get into moderately high end safes, the electronic locks used are generally compatible with mechanical. If you see the same safe offered with a choice of brand name mechanical lock (usually S&G), it's a fair bet the mount is standard between S&G Group II, IIm and electronic locks. (Some of the Group I locks use a different drill pattern for mounting the hardware). The key is compatible lock box style and location (swing bolt or conventional), mounting location, and a shaft hole that works for both a mechanical drive shaft and keypad cable.

But, if you're getting a safe like that, you can order it with what you want. The only reason for a swap-out is if you get a super deal on one not in your preferred config, or for which the lock is broken or acting up.

A reason businesses use electronic lock is additional functionality: Easier to open quickly; easier to change combinations; ability to issue individual combinations to employees with control for each; ability to have "day combinations" that don't work until someone who opens the store does the "day opening"; mutliple combination options (two employees must open); time delay opening for holdup deterrence; audit trail to record when each combination is used; and on-time combinations (offered on some ATM locks so service people can be granted one time access to open the unit for cash pickup). Mechanicals offer few of those features and, when they do, they are much more complex.

 

[CLMN]

True for lower end safes that use proprietary electronic locks. Once you get into moderately high end safes, the electronic locks used are generally compatible with mechanical.

Understood. OP was looking at an $800 safe. I doubt that safe's electronic lock is readily (and cost effectively) interchangeable with a high-end mechanical lock.

CLMN

 

[Rob Boudrie]

OP was looking at an $800 safe. I doubt that safe's electronic lock is readily (and cost effectively) interchangeable with a high-end mechanical lock.

Probably true. It is very unlikely it will ever make sense to buy a new safe and switch out an electronic lock to mechanical. The time when lock replacement makes sense is when you get a smoking deal on an old safe, and don't trust the existing lock due since it's acting funny, or just because you don;t know it's age, usage and maintenance history.

 

[Titan]

Count me into the electronic lock bunch. I actaully switched the S&G combo lock on my safe for a S&G 6120. It's faster, easier, and there is a greater than 50% chance that my wife would be able to open it if required. I have no qualms about the lifetime of a quality lock.

Agreed.

The risk of failure, especially due to dead batteries, is dramatically offset IMHO by the time it takes to open a manual dial safe. It must take a couple of minutes each time, and I have to read it off a piece of paper, because the number of changes, and number of rotations left/right etc. is beyond my meager memory.

 

[logan1171]

+1

+2