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Grouping at 50 yards from 9mm pistol?

hminsky

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So, I am wondering what the typical grouping would be for ten
shots fired from a 9mm pistol at a target at 50 yards, for a "good" pistol shooter, shooting offhand, not from a rest.

I am not a good pistol shooter, but I have seen people doing very accurate work at 25 yards. I'm wondering what 50 yards would be like. I guess it's a question of geometry, what is the average angular deviation error from the target. Anyway I'm wondering if anyone has ever tried this, and what one could expect.
 
Ultimate group size on paper is the product of two inputs: the inherent "accuracy" (i.e., repeatability) of the pistol (this is sometimes known as "machine accuracy"), and the skill of the shooter (which means the ability of the shooter to have trigger let off occur exactly when the sights are perfectly aligned with the target).

In a perfect word, machine accuracy would be 100%. That is, a pistol firmly anchored in a Ransom rest that is itself firmly anchored to the bench should put all the shots into one hole. This, of course, doesn't happen. A number of factors are at work, but with autos the dominant factor is an unavoidable variation in lockup, which means a variability in the exact alignment of the barrel to the slide (sight alignment) or the frame (rest alignment). The second most important factor is ammunition consistency, both as to velocity and headspace.

Based on experience, I would estimate that the best machine accuracy you'll find for a good 9mm auto using good ammo is about 2-3 inches at 50 yards.

Now for the shooter. In a perfect world, the shooter would be able to hold the pistol as steadily as the machine rest, and his visual accuity would be such that he could align the sights to the target exactly the same way each time. 'Tain't a perfect world.

In the real world, the gun wanders across the face of the target. For good shooters, the radius of the wander is smaller than for shooters who are still learning. What do you do? An MBA candidate might respond that the thing to do is wait until the sights are wandering right to the middle of the target and then snap the shot at the moment of perfect alignment. Unfortunately, MBA candidates are poor shots, for this is the worst thing you can do. What you should have been instructed to do is allow the gun to wander and slowly squeeze the trigger so that the moment of discharge is actually a bit of a surprise. This means, of course, that at the moment of discharge the pistol could be "aimed" anywhere within the shooter's wander radius. What happens is that after an awful lot of practice (and ammo expended), you wander radius will get smaller and smaller until you reach the peak level of "shooter accuracy" that you will ever obtain.

There are a bunch of other factors affecting shooter accuracy. One is barrel length, or, more precisely, sight radius length. The longer the sight radius, the more precise (in terms of subtended angle) one's ability to discern proper sight alignment -- all other factors held equal. Then there is visual accuity itself. Finally, there are a bunch of technique factors.

Again, based on experience, I would estimate the wander radius for a reasonably experienced shooter with a good 9mm auto to be on the order of 4-8 inches at 50 yards.

As a result, if you can consistently shoot 5-shot groups into a 6-inch group at 50 yards, I'm impressed.
 
Derek is a Distinguished Expert in Rifle, and is well on his way to becoming a Distinguished Expert in Pistol also.

If Derek implies that he can do a ten shot group measuring six inches at fifty yards, I'm inclined to believe him. Derek never brags about his shooting ability, he just goes out and does it, again and again.
 
I know I can do under 6" with my 9mm IPSC Open gun at 50yd offhand pretty easily when time isn't a factor (btw, a skill that doesn't come in all that handy in IPSC). However, that is with a red dot, quality reloads, sub 2# trigger, and a top of the line barrel. The round is capable of superb accuracy given the right combo.

I'll try this week with my CZ75. I wouldn't be surprised if it can do it too.
 
Crap.. if I could do 6" groups at 25 yds I'd be tickled pink! Another HUGE variable is the type of pistol it is... I'd challege anyone to shoot my K9 or my G26 to do 6" groups at 50yds. I'd pay for the ammo to see it done!

I think we need to qualify what kind of 9mm pistol as I suspect it's a huge varable.
 
I have a Beretta 92FS compact. The grip is a little wide for my small hands. The trigger pull isn't too bad though, but not a target pistol by any stretch of the imagination.
 
I think the limitation with the common 9mm you see at the range (Glock, Sig, CZ) is the sights. The front posts are usually too wide to shoot accurately at longer distances. A Glock is a different animal with Dawson or Heinie sights.
 
Crap.. if I could do 6" groups at 25 yds I'd be tickled pink! Another HUGE variable is the type of pistol it is... I'd challege anyone to shoot my K9 or my G26 to do 6" groups at 50yds. I'd pay for the ammo to see it done!

I think we need to qualify what kind of 9mm pistol as I suspect it's a huge varable.

If I could do 6" groups at 25 feet with my Sigma I would be happy... but the brass flying into the face really encourages flinching...

Maybe when I get it fixed.
 
I was at the 25 yard range at riverside this past summer, met a guy with
a glock 9mm he bought new about 10 or mre yrs ago. He was dead on with
it. I would say better than 6" groups easily..

JImB
 
This thread is about 9mm, and I doubt this gun is MA legal anyhow.

But this does go to the point of what the pistol is capable of. This same manufaturer also makes this: http://www.rockriverarms.com/item-detail.cfm?ID=PS2100&storeid=1&image=pbew.gif

A pistol that shoots 1.5" groups with wad cutters, rather than the 3" groups specified with ball in the other pistol. That is a 2X difference in group size at 50yds based on the pistol, never mind the shooter. My guess is that trying to shoot groups at 50yds without an accruized pistol is kind of pointless and will lead to frustration.

My Sig226 is considered by many to be an accurate pistol, but it is not meant for bullseye shooting. It is meant for 100% realiable operation in a combat setting. And, the sights (as mentioned above) are not designed for this type of shooting. I would never expect it to shoot 6" groups at 50yds.

I would agree with RKG. Without an accurized custom pistol, good luck getting sub 6" groups at 50yds. It is certainly possible by very good shooters (i.e. not me[thinking])with excellent bullseye equipment (i.e. not me), but with a defensive pistol, forget it.

I don't doubt that Derek can hold 6" groups, but I doubt he does it with his carry pistol. Especially offhand as you specified. [bow]

For reference I've attached a NRA 50yd slow fire pistol target. Note that the "black" area of this target is ~8" diameter. That includes the 8 ring.
 
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So, I am wondering what the typical grouping would be for ten
shots fired from a 9mm pistol at a target at 50 yards, for a "good" pistol shooter, shooting offhand, not from a rest.

Was the question.

The B-6 50 yrd target as Matt stated has a 8" aiming bull. Most bullseye pistol shooters that I've competed with including myself can hold the 9 ring, which is 6", with one hand.

Only later did the OP mention it was with a 92fs compact. [thinking]
 
Was the question.

The B-6 50 yrd target as Matt stated has a 8" aiming bull. Most bullseye pistol shooters that I've competed with including myself can hold the 9 ring, which is 6", with one hand.

Only later did the OP mention it was with a 92fs compact. [thinking]

I was interested in the best case, as something to compare against. I'm not expecting to get anything like that with my handgun!
 
I would agree with RKG. Without an accurized custom pistol, good luck getting sub 6" groups at 50yds. It is certainly possible by very good shooters (i.e. not me)with excellent bullseye equipment (i.e. not me), but with a defensive pistol, forget it.
I've gotten about a 6" group at 50 yards while prone, using my full-size Kimber. It's basically stock with a trigger job (3 3/4 lb trigger) and checkering.

No way I could approach that standing. The gun may be capable of better, but I'm sure not.
 
My MKIII can easily do less then six inches off of a rest at 50 yards. The gun is probably capable of alot more as it is alot easy to make an accurate fixed barrel blowback pistol with the sights mounted on a basically one piece frame/barrel. The only limitation is the ammo, barrel, and to some degree the lockup of the bolt (not a big deal @ 50yds for pistol accuracy). The Encyclopedia of Bullseye pistol claims the gun will do 3 inches at 50 yards. I can't do anywhere near that offhand/gallery.
 
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Take a look at the B27 PPC target. Those matches are usually won or lost by X count. S&W now makes a 9MM PPC semi that does the job.

When we used to shoot PPC with the 38spl, we used a neck hold at 50 yards with sights adjusted to allow the bullets to drop into the center. Neck hold allowed smaller aim point so less chance of error.

You have me very interested in this thread to the point I will drag out my Sig 226 and see what I can do at 50 yards on an 8" paper plate. If it isn't too embarrassing, I will post the results. If you don't hear from me you know I sucked too bad to post [laugh]
 
Was the question.

The B-6 50 yrd target as Matt stated has a 8" aiming bull. Most bullseye pistol shooters that I've competed with including myself can hold the 9 ring, which is 6", with one hand.

Only later did the OP mention it was with a 92fs compact. [thinking]

Derek: out of curiosity, what do you use for bullseye?
 
Derek is a Distinguished Expert in Rifle, and is well on his way to becoming a Distinguished Expert in Pistol also.

If Derek implies that he can do a ten shot group measuring six inches at fifty yards, I'm inclined to believe him. Derek never brags about his shooting ability, he just goes out and does it, again and again.

Didn't say I didn't believe it; only that I'm impressed.
 
Derek: out of curiosity, what do you use for bullseye?

Used to shoot a Colt 1911 that was built by one of our Marine Corps armorers when I was on active duty. I now have a Springfield 1911 that was built by Greg Derr.

1911.jpg
 
Used to shoot a Colt 1911 that was built by one of our Marine Corps armorers when I was on active duty. I now have a Springfield 1911 that was built by Greg Derr.
Nice to see I am not the only one who isn't into the whole beavertail thing. Is that the stock hammer? Same question on the barrel. EGW thick flange bushing? O/S slide stop?
 
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Nice to see I am not the only one who isn't into the whole beavertail thing. Is that the stock hammer? Same question on the barrel. EGW thick flange bushing? O/S slide stop?

Derek's gun looks the way it does out of necessity. Even though I dislike the modern 1911 look with beavertail grips/ambi safeties/etc., etc., those who want to become Distinguished Pistol Shots must do so with accurized M1911s or M9s that deviate from GI appearance only in metal finish and sights. Everything else has to look GI. Those are the CMP regulations governing pistols used in Excellence In Competition Matches.

Derek, I didn't know you were on your way to double D. That's awesome.
 
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