It was not 25 yards when I took it. It was done on the indoor range at 50' IIRC. You could use the provided .22lr handgun or your own gun. I suspect that the point was not to really test you on your marksmanship, but instead your safe handling.
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Goodbye, Mass Rifle Association
- Thread starter Martlet
- Start date
dwarven1
Lonely Mountain Arms
Really? I guess I missed hearing about it when it was instituted. But then, since we haven't even had a newsletter put out in a year and a half, I'm not surprised.
You're right on all three points. That was the only time I've ever been inside. I tried going in once and the waitress was so hostile I just turned around and left. The drunks in the bar don't like the shooters.
Go back and read the thread, then. Essentially, it was said that people who criticize yet don't volunteer aren't good members. Even reading your response, I take away that same opinion. Either I'm misunderstanding, or someone isn't explaining themselves well.
I don't have the time. Isn't that why I pay extra every year? To make up for not having time?
Because they volunteered to do it. I should expect people who volunteer to do a job to not want to do it?
Ahhh. I'm a leech now. If people who pay their dues, AND EXTRA IF THEY HAVEN'T THE TIME TO VOLUNTEER, are merely leeches, then why not have volunteer work as a requirement, not an option? The fact remains that it IS an option, which I choose to use. Now you're saying I'm a leech. Nice.
I've stopped into the office several times. Yesterday I was helped. The other 2 times in as many months I was essentially told nothing will change in a very unpleasant manner. Not wanting to engage in a "flame war" has nothing to do with the elitist attitude I mentioned. You're wrong on that point. Additionally, if they didn't want to engage, then why post?
If you aren't a member, what are you basing your defense on? Is it just a "general defense"?
As I have stated, I have no problem with the existence of a range qualification test. I have a problem with the fact that it is ONLY given on Sunday mornings at 9am, and the few times I showed up they were unable to give it. They offer no alternative time.
How does qualifying ensure safety? That is like saying every teen driver should be great b/c they passed a driving test. Most of your problems will come from a**h***s not uneducated shooters. You can't regulate a**h***s.
If you and your clubs believe it helps then great, I just don’t agree.
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What I don't understand is the majority of this topic is about range safety. However, the club is taking a stance on "range safety" by making it a mandated procedure that if you're going to shoot on certain ranges you need to prove that you are "safe". So some of the policies regarding safety have been addressed because it is an issue but then the people that complain that the club isn't safe are the first to complain about the requirements to use said range? So to use the range you have to prove that "you're safe and competent" enough to use that range. So if people complain about safety in other ranges and polices change because of these complaints are these same people going to complain that it is inconvenient? Doesn't make sense.
I understand the complaint that you can't simply qualify when it is convenient to you but remember these people donate their time to accommodate you. Their time is just as valuable as yours. If it is a priority to you to use a specific range then you need to make adjustments to be qualified on that specific range. It's all about compromising. If you can't compromise then in the end you'll be the one not using the range. It goes for all members.
I understand the complaint that you can't simply qualify when it is convenient to you but remember these people donate their time to accommodate you. Their time is just as valuable as yours. If it is a priority to you to use a specific range then you need to make adjustments to be qualified on that specific range. It's all about compromising. If you can't compromise then in the end you'll be the one not using the range. It goes for all members.
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It's a limit for the 100/200 yard range. They don't want someone losing control and sending rounds over the berm, because I-95 and I-93 are both well within rifle range.
I think our 50 yard range is limited to 10 round mags. The 25 yard ranges have no limit IIRC.
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You're seeing this in the wrong light. You don't pay more because you don't help out. You get a reduced membership when you do help out. It's not the same. The club is basically paying you for your time. There is a big difference than helping out. The $50 or so that you save for helping doesn't even make up for the amount of work people donate to help the clubs out.
But if qualifying ensures safety then why are there so many safety problems on these ranges???
![[hmmm]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/009.gif "Hmm [hmmm]")
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But if qualifying ensures safety then why are there so many safety problems on these ranges???
Qualifying can never insure safety at all times. However, qualifying can quickly determine if someone is not competent enough to use said range. Everything is a compromise. You take a test to determine if you're safe enough to drive a car. Does that mean you're not going to get into an accident? NOPE. But, it can be determined if you're just not safe enough to even get behind the wheel. Same type of thing.
So, you think they've got unlimited time and unlimited volunteers? I'm betting that the same 1/2 dozen guys at MRA do 90% of the work.
Yup, you don't have time to volunteer. I understand that. Just a question, if I may? How many hours a week do you spend online here?
The extra money you pay to MRA is great. But as I said, I'm sure they don't get enough money in dues to pay for employees. So if no members help out, then the club goes under. That's the reality of the finances for gun clubs. The only reason that the club is open is because volunteers help out. If you don't help out, then yes, you are depending upon the goodwill of others to preserve the club. Is leech a strong word? Sure. But the reality is that you are benefiting from the volunteer work of others and are bitching when they don't do it to your liking.
Sorry they were unpleasant. Some people are always that way. Some people are that way when depending upon the way in which they are treated. If you walk in with a chip on your shoulder, then guess how people will respond? How did you approach them? Did you approach them graciously? Or were you pissed off and let that emotion show through?
Huh? Now you've lost me.
I'm basing it on the same thing I've seen at every gun club I've been a member of and what I've heard from directors at other clubs. The same 1/2 dozen people do all the work. Others who don't want to help out then bitch about things but won't help out.
Sorry to hear that. That's a problem. As I mentioned, we had a similar problem at our club. The driving force behind getting this fixed was a new member in a similar position as you are, who came to meetings, repeatedly, and politely pointed out the problem, and offered to help out.
I completely agree. So much so that I've managed to be there at the designated time on two or three different occasions, but they were unable to do qualifying as advertised. No notice given.
So, I can either continue to show up in hopes that they'll grace me with their presence, or find a new club. If people are taking great offense to me saying these are the policies that are causing me to leave, then maybe they aren't cut out for the job.
dwarven1
Lonely Mountain Arms
Pete - Martlet's specific complaint is that 2 or 3 times when he DID manage to get there at 9AM on a Sunday morning, THERE WAS NO ONE THERE TO QUALIFY HIM. He DID make the adjustments... and got blown off.
If your rifle loses control when you have more than one round in the magazine, you have a problem for a gunsmith.
That argument makes no sense whatever - what you're saying is that it's OK to send one round into the highway but not 10. If they can't hit the end with one round, what makes you think that they'll be any better after getting out of position to load again?
Slice it how you will. The end result is exactly the same.
MRA is quite an excellent club in my opinion.
As others have said, every club has issues. MRA is working to spend the $$ to improve the facilities and in recent times (the last year an a half or so) have had an explosion in membership. With that comes additional problems. Its the law of averages. More people = the possibility of more idiots. I am hoping MRA is able to address these new issues quickly.
MRA works to support all of the shooting diciplines and casual shooters alike. Additionally it strives to be accessable to new members. Some clubs require sponsorship to get in. Some require you "know sombody". Would this approach be better? I do not know. What I do know is that the vast majority of those running the club work to provide all of us a nice place to shoot that is convenient.
In the seven+ years I have been a member AND attended the matches I have found the gentlemen and ladies participating to be very vigilant with safety rules. I have seen my share of questionable behavior outside of the matches as well. I think this occurs anywhere there is 24 hour access to a range and no range officer. As others have said- it is all of our responsibility to be "safety officers". I have no problem letting someone know when I see unsafe behaivor and have done so in the past.
Most clubs that actively support the shooting sports will have some level of "match" at some time or another and they require the use of the ranges - clays, skeet, pins, plates, bullseye, IPSC, IDPA, high power. It's just part of shooting at a club. A few hours one or two days a month is not unreasonable for a club that has 24 hours access (I agree, I would be miffed if the match was not posted and I showed up expecting to shoot and could not).
But... the matches are open to all and new shooters are always welcome! Join in! it is always fun to have more people involved. The MRA guys are always inviting to have new faces at the matches. Thats how I got roped into the money pit that is action shooting!
I know this was long but after reading all of the posts I wanted to add my 2 cents and say that I appreciate what that the volunteers do to support all of the shooting sports while providing a nice facility to do what we all love to do as a past time.
As others have said, every club has issues. MRA is working to spend the $$ to improve the facilities and in recent times (the last year an a half or so) have had an explosion in membership. With that comes additional problems. Its the law of averages. More people = the possibility of more idiots. I am hoping MRA is able to address these new issues quickly.
MRA works to support all of the shooting diciplines and casual shooters alike. Additionally it strives to be accessable to new members. Some clubs require sponsorship to get in. Some require you "know sombody". Would this approach be better? I do not know. What I do know is that the vast majority of those running the club work to provide all of us a nice place to shoot that is convenient.
In the seven+ years I have been a member AND attended the matches I have found the gentlemen and ladies participating to be very vigilant with safety rules. I have seen my share of questionable behavior outside of the matches as well. I think this occurs anywhere there is 24 hour access to a range and no range officer. As others have said- it is all of our responsibility to be "safety officers". I have no problem letting someone know when I see unsafe behaivor and have done so in the past.
Most clubs that actively support the shooting sports will have some level of "match" at some time or another and they require the use of the ranges - clays, skeet, pins, plates, bullseye, IPSC, IDPA, high power. It's just part of shooting at a club. A few hours one or two days a month is not unreasonable for a club that has 24 hours access (I agree, I would be miffed if the match was not posted and I showed up expecting to shoot and could not).
But... the matches are open to all and new shooters are always welcome! Join in! it is always fun to have more people involved. The MRA guys are always inviting to have new faces at the matches. Thats how I got roped into the money pit that is action shooting!
I know this was long but after reading all of the posts I wanted to add my 2 cents and say that I appreciate what that the volunteers do to support all of the shooting sports while providing a nice facility to do what we all love to do as a past time.
Mikey, qualifying certainly doesn't ensure safety and I never said it did. The club for which I am an officer does not require qualification. Two other clubs that I have been members of required qualification. I was not on the board of either of those clubs.
I've seen plenty of unsafe gun handling from people who were not a**h***s. They just either 1) didn't know any better or 2) got into bad habits. Some of the old timers were trained in a time and place (e.g., military in the 50's) when safety was treated in a very different way than it is today.
What qualification may do is give the range officer a chance to see the person handling a gun. If the person handles the gun in an unsafe manner, the range officer can then take the appropriate action. Is it perfect? No. Will it catch some knucklehead who later shoots faster than he can keep it on target? No.
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There's a third possibility. Go to the club meetings and point this out. Tell them, politely, that what has happened and when. Explain that this has probably affected other members. Suggest how you can help fix this.
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And that is where they are faulted. In such cases accommodations should have been made to meet you on "your" time to enable you to use the range. Or have another member or BOD have the authority to qualify you. I know how frustrating it is to take time out of your day to do something and to arrive and be told you can't. I've gone to ranges before that had scheduled matches and I drive 50+ miles to find the match had been canceled without anyone being notified. It's the same thing here but in reverse.
dwarven1
Lonely Mountain Arms
He may well do what several of us do - log in from work when it's slack. Certainly that's what I'm doing right now - if I had any tickets to work you wouldn't see me here now.
So what you're saying here is that the clubs operate under false pretenses? They say that "OK, you can pay your dues and help out or you can pay dues + X and not volunteer", but they're really lying when they say that? Is that what you're saying? Sure sounds like it.
So? What's your point?
I'm unsure. Perhaps if you bottle all the "hour here, hour there" together, I'll have time to get in my car, drive to MRA, and volunteer. When you come up with a machine that does such a thing, start a group buy. I'm probably not the only one who would get in on it. Regardless, your attitude is an excellent example of what I'm talking about. Let's see if I can pack something into every minute of my day.
I'm paying to belong to a club that offers a service. That service is not being provided to my liking. I'm going to give my money to a club that does. I'm explaining why I'm doing so. You're bitching because you don't like what I have to say. Thanks. Your opinion is noted.
I'm always exceptionally polite, particularly when in uniform as I was that day. The second time I went in, and also the time I got the rudest response, I wasn't even going in to complain. I was merely asking if they would open qualifications at times other than 9am. You can continue to make excuses and try to direct blame. It serves no purpose, though. I was there. You weren't.
Oviously.
Ahhh. So essentially you don't know what you're talking about with regard to my particular circumstance.
Great. Move the meetings to monday morning, and I'll attend every one of them.
False pretenses? Come on dwarven1, that's uncalled for.
Most clubs do not have employees. They can't afford them. The ranges need to be cleaned up, the backstops need to be repaired, work needs to be done around the club house, and 90% of it is done by volunteers. If the volunteers did not show up, the club would go under. That's the reality.
For the clubs that offer discounts for work parties, the point of that policy is not that they could replace your labor by hiring someone for the difference in dues. The goal of the policy is to encourage people to come in and help out. Look at the hourly "wage" of the dues discount -- it is often near minimum wage. To hire someone, you would need to pay wages, social security, unemployment insurance, benefits, pay to cut checks, workman's comp, etc.
The procedure at MRA is that you set up an appointment to qualify on either the 50 yard or 100/200 yard range. There is an appoinment book in the office that is kept for just this purpose. You can either call the club office on Wednesday nights or Sunday mornings to set up an appoinment. The number is 781-933-2138
While the qualification is done at 9:00 AM on Sundays it is done on an appointment basis. It has been this way for at least 3 years.
It is not done every week as it is difficult to find someone who will give up their Sunday mornings each and every week.
While some people may not see the need for qualification it does indeed weed out certain people who do not belong outside. These people must either shoot indoors or improve their skills. I can tell you as a 10 year member of MRA that when I joined the club my rifle skills were minimal. The same members who are still there today were more than happy to answer my questions and teach me the proper way to handle a firearm. They educated me and worked with me.
I have never seen a member of MRA or any shooter at another club refuse to answer a shooter's question or work with them to improve their skills. That is what makes this sport great. Its all about the people.
Not posting a regularly scheduled match was wrong and will be addressed at the next board meeting on December 3rd. However, it was an oversight. As many people have said, there are only so many hours in a day that a person can give to a club. Some things do fall through the cracks.
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dwarven1
Lonely Mountain Arms
Bored out of my skull.
![[rolleyes]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/042.gif "Roll Eyes [rolleyes]")
It doesn't help that I'm healing from a broken ankle and can't do a large part of my job, either. (being on my feet as much as I was on Saturday at the shoot was the most I've been vertical in weeks. )Oh, yeah... also take a look at when I joined. I was out of work for a while there, too.
![[wink]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/002.gif "Wink [wink]")
And yet... and yet - that's the reasoning that we hear - "well, we have (say) 700 members, and if only 50 volunteer, that's $50*650 that we have in the club's coffers to get the work done".
Look, I'm one of the more active members of a Masonic Lodge here in Metrowest; believe me, I know how much time it takes to run something! But if a Brother tells me that he can't spend time doing whatever because of job or family, well... our attitude is that family and job must come first - and when I do see him, I'm glad to see him. That's not the attitude that is being thrown around in this thread.
Just as you have limited time, so do the volunteers who run the club. I suspect they're doing the very best they can with the limited resources they've got. They'd probably like to do more and do it better, but they've only got so much time in the day. If you come up with that time machine, I'm sure the volunteers at MRA could use it.
Right back at you, my friend.
Some people are that way, as I'm sure you know. And it sucks to have to deal with them.
Based on the tone of your postings, I think you have clearly communicated your circumstances, what you have done, what you haven't done, and what you chose not to do. We'll have to agree to disagree.
dwarven1, your point is well taken, family and job come first. And I really need to stop procrastinating and get back to mine...
My point is that the same is true for the volunteers that do all the work at the club. They've got limited time between work and family.
So when members ask those same volunteers to do more and are unwilling to help out, their suggestions are less likely to get implemented, because the volunteers are already doing as much as they can. If they are going to now do project X that the member suggested, then project Y is not going to get done. We don't have the ability to hire someone to do it.
That wasn't the reasoning at our club when we considered such a policy. For us, we were looking for a way to encourage members to come and help out.
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Apparently you have never fired several rounds in rapid succession from a firearm. When you do, the muzzle tends to rise.
And those with semi-automatic rifles often like to shoot rapid fire.
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OK I (we?) get it - Martlet is not happy at MRA - enough of this post going around in circles and turning into a bitch session of what's wrong at MRA.
Martlet admitted that "Overall, MRA isn't a bad club at all"
If he thinks leaving MRA and joining another club is the answer and truely thinks he'll have no issues at another club - I wish him well.
Is the grass always greener on the other side? who knows.
If he does leave MRA it's his loss - MRA is a great place to shoot and does have a lot to offer.
Martlet admitted that "Overall, MRA isn't a bad club at all"
If he thinks leaving MRA and joining another club is the answer and truely thinks he'll have no issues at another club - I wish him well.
Is the grass always greener on the other side? who knows.
If he does leave MRA it's his loss - MRA is a great place to shoot and does have a lot to offer.
Ummm yes you did.
But anyway I do not think it is necessary especially in MA where a "safety class" is required for an LTC or FID, which should be good enough for your club.
Imagine if Derek required all of use to qualify before joining NES.
