Fire permit for ammo storage

[TonyDedo]

I started reloading this summer, and thanks to some fine folks on this forum, realized, per MGL, I needed a permit from the local FD if I want to buy more than one box of primers at a time. So I inquired with the Office of Fire Prevention, and was sent a generic permit application to fill out and return. Under the "reason for permit" section, I basically paraphrased the MGL code section, stating the permit was for storage of centerfire ammo, between 10k and 50k rounds, rimfire, shotshell, powder, primers, etc. I attached my $40 check, and off it went.

Finally, 2 weeks later I get a voicemail from the fire captain, asking for more information. So I called him back, and he asks me, "So what's this permit for." So I repeated, for centerfire ammo 10k-50k round, etc. He cut me off and said, "Yeah, you copied the law here, but I need to know what you have." So I tried to explain to him that I have all sorts of rimfire, centerfire, shotshells, primer and powder, but not in quantities that required the permit, and that I was waiting for the permit before I bought them. He didn't seem to get it, and asked for an inventory of all my ammo and components, along with their storage location. I happened to have a recent inventory, with quantities that happened to be just below the limit requiring a permit, so I sent the excel file off to him.

Three weeks later (after he promised I'd have the permit that first week), I finally get it in the mail. The permit is for "ammunition and gunpowder" - no mention of primers - "as described in the attached." And he had attached a copy of my inventory, signed and dated by him.

So basically he gave me a permit to store the ammunition that I already had, and legally didn't need a permit for in the first place. Meanwhile, I still don't have a permit that says anything about storing more than 1000 primers, or more than 10k of ammo, which is what I really needed in the first place.

It was a major hassle dealing with the fire captain in the first place - he was the kind of guy who made it sound like asking him to do his job was unreasonable and a major inconvenience. I'm thinking I should just say F*** it, stick the useless permit in m gun safe, and get on buying whatever I need. Can anyone think of a good reason why I should go hassle this guy into doing it right?

 

[stoneypete]

Can anyone think of a good reason why I should go hassle this guy into doing it right?

If there is a fire and they determine your "inventory" contributed/caused/aided the fire and it was determined you were storing more than what you were allowed, your insurance can/will use that as an excuse/reason to refuse to pay the claim for the damage to your home.

One way around it is to immediately prime your brass. Primed brass is not stored primers.

 

[sksguns]

If there is a fire and they determine your "inventory" contributed/caused/aided the fire and it was determined you were storing more than what you were allowed, your insurance can/will use that as an excuse/reason to refuse to pay the claim for the damage to your home.

One way around it is to immediately prime your brass. Primed brass is not stored primers.

....and if a firefighter or someone else got hurt or worse during that fire...then see you later.....

 

[KMaurer]

I suspect that the restrictions imposed are without any real meaning, since the amounts of ammunition, powder and ammunition that can be stored with a permit are already explicitly specified in 527 CMR 13.04(2). You might want to print out a copy and show it to them.

Ken

 

[TonyDedo]

I suspect that the restrictions imposed are without any real meaning, since the amounts of ammunition, powder and ammunition that can be stored with a permit are already explicitly specified in 527 CMR 13.04(2). You might want to print out a copy and show it to them.

Ken

I think the issue is that he just didn't understand what I needed or why, and (this is purely based on my perception of his attitude) he didn't care one way or another. I was very explicit in my application and when I explained it to his secretary and to him (twice) as to exactly what I needed. I quoted the regs in my application, and included a copy of the law with the application.

Why is it that so many public employees (police, fire, etc) forget that they're in the customer service business too, and that helping honest, law abiding citizens who are trying to do the right thing is part of their job.

I AM going to go back to the FD and get them to correct the permit. You're right - I want to make sure I remain complaint (legal, insurance, etc) and however unlikely, I CERTAINLY don't want anyone hurt because of an incorrect permit, however unlikely that may be. I just needed to bitch a moan a bit before I get back on the phone with this guy and try to act like I'm not completely annoyed.

 

[stoneypete]

I just needed to bitch a moan a bit before I get back on the phone with this guy and try to act like I'm not completely annoyed.

And the academy award for Best Actor in dealing with apathetic public "servants" goes to TonyDedo.

 

[TonyDedo]

And the academy award for Best Actor in dealing with apathetic public "servants" goes to TonyDedo.

I’d like to thank the MA legislature, whose oversized socialist government, intrusive, burdensome and pointless laws and miles of bureaucracy and red tape were my inspiration for this performance.

If it weren't for you, all I'd have to complain about would be the weather.

 

[Lugnut]

Man that really blows. Mine was a hastle but only because I think me and one other person are the only ones that asked for this in my town.

I told my FD that I wanted to have a permit so I could buy some items in bulk when they went on sale and that I'm a competitive shooter so I reload alot to save money. Now I know I don't NEED to tell them this but at least it should help them understand that I'm just not buying stuff to make bombs or anything like that.

Good luck trying again.

 

[dbhn]

The limitations in the law are confusing to me:

(2) Storage By Permit: In accordance with the provisions of M.G.L. c. 148 § 13, the Board hereby prescribes the following quantities of explosive materials that shall be exempt from License, and Registration, and may be kept, or stored in a building or other structure provided a permit has been obtained from the head of the local fire department;
(a) Small Arms Ammunition: Private Use. Small arms ammunition in amounts over that specified in 527 CMR 13.04(1), that do not exceed 100,000 total rounds at any one time, may be kept for private use provided none of the individual limitations listed below are exceeded.
1. 10,001 to 30,000 rounds of rim fire ammunition.
2. 10,001 to 50,000 rounds of center fire ammunition not to include shotgun ammuni-tion.
3. 10,001 to 50,000 rounds of shotgun ammunition not to include center fire ammunition.

Does this mean WITH A PERMIT one has to stay within those ranges on each type and not exceed the total limit of 100,000?

And, WITHOUT a permit one can keep up to 10,000 rounds of each type, totalling 30,000.

I did not see a limit on small arms storage anywhere else but in this passage re: the permit.

 

[Lugnut]

dbhn- here is what you can legally own WITHOUT a permit- more than that and you need a permit.

(1) Exemption: License, Registration, or Permit: In accordance with the provisions of M.G.L. c. 148 § 13, the Board hereby prescribes the following quantities of explosive materials that shall be exempt from License, Registration, and Permit and may be kept, or stored in a building or other structure:
(a) Small Arms Ammunition
1. Not more than 10,000 rounds of rim fire ammunition.
2. Not more than 10,000 rounds of center fire ammunition.
3. Not more than 5,000 rounds of shotgun ammunition.
(b) Small Arms Ammunition Primers
1. Not more than 1,000 caps or other small arms primers.
(c) Smokeless Propellants
1. Not more than 16 pounds.
2. Persons under 18 years of age may not keep or store Smokeless Propellants.
3. Not more than two pounds of such propellant shall be stored in a multiple family dwelling or a building of public access.
(d) Black Powder
1. Not more than two pounds.
2. Persons under 18 years of age may not keep or store black powder.
(e) Exempt quantities of small arms ammunition, primers, smokeless propellants and black powder shall be stored in original containers and such containers shall be stored in a locked cabinet, closet or box when not in use.

 

[kevin9]

The limitations in the law are confusing to me:

(2) Storage By Permit: In accordance with the provisions of M.G.L. c. 148 § 13, the Board hereby prescribes the following quantities of explosive materials that shall be exempt from License, and Registration, and may be kept, or stored in a building or other structure provided a permit has been obtained from the head of the local fire department;
(a) Small Arms Ammunition: Private Use. Small arms ammunition in amounts over that specified in 527 CMR 13.04(1), that do not exceed 100,000 total rounds at any one time, may be kept for private use provided none of the individual limitations listed below are exceeded.
1. 10,001 to 30,000 rounds of rim fire ammunition.
2. 10,001 to 50,000 rounds of center fire ammunition not to include shotgun ammuni-tion.
3. 10,001 to 50,000 rounds of shotgun ammunition not to include center fire ammunition.

Does this mean WITH A PERMIT one has to stay within those ranges on each type and not exceed the total limit of 100,000?

Very close: With a permit you can keep up a total of 100K rounds as long as you don't exceed the maximum limits for any specific type of round. The minimums are only there to indicate that if you stay below all of them then you don't need a permit.

And, WITHOUT a permit one can keep up to 10,000 rounds of each type, totalling 30,000.

Correct, plus primers (1K), smokeless propellant (16lbs) and black powder (2lbs). To exceed any of the categories you need a permit.

I did not see a limit on small arms storage anywhere else but in this passage re: the permit.

The referenced M.G.L contains the authorization for this regulation.

 

[TonyDedo]

Okay, so I called the FD and left a message. Got a return call from the Captain this afternoon. I couldn't believe I got a return call, let alone on the same day. Then I hear:

"This is Captain XYZ. I heard you don't like the permit I gave you."

He couldn't have sounded more annoyed if he had fire ants crawling up his a**hole.

So I tried to explain to him (again) that I don't need a permit for the ammunition that I have (tried quoting the regs, and that really pissed him off), but for what I'm going to have in the future.

So he asks, "So what are you going to have in the future?"

I told him there's no way I could tell him that, because it all depends on how much I shot, how quickly I reloaded, and how much I decided to buy.

So he says, "I can't give you a permit if I don't know what the permit is for. If a guy wants to store gasoline in his home, I ask him how much, he says 8,000 gallons, and I give him a permit for 8,000 gallons. Why is this so hard for you to understand?"

So I said, "Okay, imagine that guy is a race car driver," (I already used the 'competitive shooter' excuse when he wanted to know WHY I was storing so much ammo), "and he burns 500 gallons of gas each weekend racing, and restocks based on when gas prices are lowest."

NOW HE GETS IT

"Oh. So I guess I'm going to have to change the permit. I'm going to have to figure out what it should say."

Maybe it should say what I wrote on the F***ING permit application!!! AGHHHHHHH!!!

(sorry, I've been having a sh*tty day - I got rear-ended this morning by some jacka** speeding through my neighborhood, and it just set the mood for the whole day)

 

[dbhn]

Thanks guys for clarifying this. You learn something new everyday on this board.

Not that it really matters, but one quoted 5,000 shotgun and another 10,000. Which one is right? It doesn't matter because I would need an additional to house more than 5,000 12 gauge...not to mention a raise. Just curious.

-Derek

 

[TonyDedo]

Thanks guys for clarifying this. You learn something new everyday on this board.

Not that it really matters, but one quoted 5,000 shotgun and another 10,000. Which one is right? It doesn't matter because I would need an additional to house more than 5,000 12 gauge...not to mention a raise. Just curious.

-Derek

5000 rounds of shot shells - why do you think I need the permit so bad?

 

[Lugnut]

TonyDedo- when he asked you what you think you needed you should have told the max allowed. It doesn't sounds like he was trying to be an idiot he just didn't know what you wanted... see what he comes up with.

 

[dwarven1]

When I asked a local fire captain about a storage permit, he looked at me funny and said "You're actually going to apply for the permit?" in a somewhat incredulous tone. Apparently not many people do so... then he asked me where I shoot. Turns out he belongs to the same club as I do.

I don't think I'll have a hard time getting that permit...

 

[stoneypete]

When I asked a local fire captain about a storage permit, he looked at me funny and said "You're actually going to apply for the permit?"

That is the exact reaction I got from the Brockton Fire Department. When I learned that the permit don't increase your powder storage in a multi-family, I decided to just keep my volume within regs and not bother with the permit.

Now I live in a townhouse (no longer in Brockton) which by my understanding still constitutes a multifamily. So I still keep myself under the limits of needing no permit.

 

[JackO]

So I still keep myself under the limits of needing no permit.

And you keep your powder supply under 2 lbs

 

[TonyDedo]

TonyDedo- when he asked you what you think you needed you should have told the max allowed. It doesn't sounds like he was trying to be an idiot he just didn't know what you wanted... see what he comes up with.

I did - that's what my initial permit application stated. Then he asked if I actually had that much ammo, and I said "no" and he said he wanted to know exactly what I had.

So I still keep myself under the limits of needing no permit.

Do you reload? If so, how do you get away with no more than 1k of primers?

 

[Lugnut]

Do you reload? If so, how do you get away with no more than 1k of primers?

Yeah- that's the killer if you reload in any kind of volume. My permit allows up to 5K which still sucks. 1K min for small pistol, 1K min for large pistol and 1K min for small rifle. Then you can have 2K more.... yippie. Prepriming cases is a way around the limit like a poster mentioned but it's just an extra step for a progressive like you/I have.

 

[stoneypete]

And you keep your powder supply under 2 lbs

Yup. 1lb makes > 1000 rounds of .45 acp or .44-40. That's more than I shoot in a year.

I know, I don't shoot as often as I'd like, but I do shoot more than I can afford.

 

[stoneypete]

Do you reload? If so, how do you get away with no more than 1k of primers?

Yup I reload.

Currently the two rounds I load for use the same primer. A typical loading session for me is only 200 to 300 rounds. That will last me weeks as a typical day a the range is only 100 rounds. Therefore buying 1 brick of primers has not been a big deal.

When I start reloading for .30-06, I've already got Dad's permission to store stuff at his house. I'll buy two brick's and store 500 of each type at Dad's.

 

[digitech]

I walked in and got mine in Carver today with no problem and no charge.

 

[KMaurer]

Captain XYZ: "I can't give you a permit if I don't know what the permit is for. If a guy wants to store gasoline in his home, I ask him how much, he says 8,000 gallons, and I give him a permit for 8,000 gallons. Why is this so hard for you to understand?"

Me: "I apologize for not being familiar with the Massachusetts laws and regulations covering gasoline storage, Captain. I do, however, have a copy of 527 CMR 13-04 here, and it seems to specify quite clearly what quantities are covered by the permit. Given that the law doesn't seem to authorize variations in these amounts on a case by case basis, I don't understand your concern over how much I might have. I might have any amounts up to those specified in the CMR, a**h***."

Ken