FID required to hunt with a muzzleloader?

[HorizontalHunter]

IIRC you need an FID to hunt with a muzzleloader as it is required to posess the "amunition." I searched and couldn't find a reference to the specific MGL. Can someone point me to the right MGL?

Thanks,

Bob

 

[vellnueve]

You're correct - an FID is required to get the components.

 

[Mikel131]

No FID or LTC is needed by bow hunters, nor by minors 12-14 years old hunting with a duly licensed adult, nor for the possession of primitive rifles or shotguns as defined in MGL Ch. 140, Section 121, or their ammunition. However, an LTC or FID is required to purchase all ammunition including black powder and Pyrodex ( see http://www.mass.gov/dfwele/dfw/regulations/abstracts/abstracts.htm )

 

[arlow]

You're correct - an FID is required to get the components.

No he is not correct, technically a FID is required to purchase powder, it is not required to possess the powder. There are no requirements for the progectiles either. Stupid yes, but that is how the law is written.

 

[vellnueve]

No he is not correct, technically a FID is required to purchase powder, it is not required to possess the powder. There are no requirements for the progectiles either. Stupid yes, but that is how the law is written.

Explain to me how you're going to get the powder without purchasing it? You can't buy it from another person since sales of ammunition by anyone other than a MA Ammo Dealer is illegal. Other than going out of state to get it, or finding some lying on the side of the road...

 

[SGZip]

When I took the hunting safety course, I was told that antique replicas are legal (true) and that all the ammo components are legal (false), and it was confirmed by the EPO (still false), so I think that's a common misconception. Yes, you can legally buy black powder, lead ball, and caps in NH, but since cartridge ammunition can be made with black powder and substitutes, the black powder falls under the legal definition of "ammunition" in MA.

This is what I concluded in a previous thread about range practice without FID/LTC:

'M.G.L. c.140 s.121 defines "ammunition" as cartridges and cartridge components. However, percussion caps, round lead balls, and Pyrodex pellets are not cartridge components under this definition, so they are not ammunition.

Therefore, antique/replica cap & ball revolvers can be loaded with caps, balls, and pellets without FID/LTC. However, M.G.L. c.269 s.10 restricts possession, loaded or unloaded, outside of residence or place of business. So you can carry loaded anywhere on your property or your business, and the only place you can transport it is out of state in a locked container, unloaded. If you wanted to transport it between your house and your business, you would need to mail it or have someone with LTC transport it.

As for antique/replica rifles & shotguns, M.G.L. c.269 s.10 allows possession anywhere, loaded or unloaded, under M.G.L. c.140 s.129C. However, Pyrodex pellets don't work in these guns. The black powder needed for these guns could be considered "propellant powder" which is listed as a cartridge component under M.G.L. c.140 s.121, so they cannot be loaded anywhere in this state without FID/LTC, because the powder is considered "ammunition" even if the cap & ball are not. This goes for cap & ball revolvers as well - powder is ammunition; pellets are not.'


But, like I said, the experienced environmental police officer, who came to speak to 100+ people about hunting regulations, stated that you don't need an FID to hunt with antiques & replicas. I have also discussed the subject with MassWildlife reps, and their "interpretation" of the laws seems to agree that black powder antiques & replicas are OK. So in the field, you might not ever be questioned, especially if you are an experienced and responsible sportsman.

However, with my current understanding of the law, I wouldn't risk it. I would definitely get my FID first, and I would recommend that everyone else do the same.

 

[arlow]

Explain to me how you're going to get the powder without purchasing it?

It doesnt matter. Possession is not restricted to only FID or LTC holders. It is legal to possess, period. Maybe your Dad or a friend gave it to you. Maybe you bought it out of state. I know it is logically screwed up but that is how the law is written.

http://www.goal.org/Documents/law_faq_pdfs/primitive.pdf

Residents and non residents do not need a LTC or FID to posess or carry a primative firearm.

 

[SGZip]

Residents and non residents do not need a LTC or FID to posess or carry a primative firearm.

Please look at the GOAL document again, and notice that it's conveniently missing the question about ammunition. (Maybe they don't want to rock the boat?) From my previous post:

The black powder needed for these guns could be considered "propellant powder" which is listed as a cartridge component under M.G.L. c.140 s.121, so they cannot be loaded anywhere in this state without FID/LTC, because the powder is considered "ammunition" even if the cap & ball are not.

As I stated, there is a common misconception, even with MassWildlife, so I'm guessing that there have been/will be many people who hunt without FID using antiques & replicas. It may even be that the intent was to allow this when the laws were written, but that's not what was actually done.

 

[HorizontalHunter]

Thank you for the responses. When I read the MGL's over on the GOAL page I came to the same conclusion as SGZip. Gotta love the "logic' of the Mass laws.

Thanks again,

Bob

 

[BWhite]

No he is not correct, technically a FID is required to purchase powder, it is not required to possess the powder. There are no requirements for the progectiles either. Stupid yes, but that is how the law is written.

Spelling !

 

[Deer_KiLLer]

Explain to me how you're going to get the powder without purchasing it? You can't buy it from another person since sales of ammunition by anyone other than a MA Ammo Dealer is illegal. Other than going out of state to get it, or finding some lying on the side of the road...

your wrong, stop acting like a know it all!! its as easy as going out of state to get it. everyone knows that.

so yes you can hunt with a muzzelloader without a firearms permit. you can own the componets you just can't buy them here in mass.

 

[Scrivener]

your [sic] wrong, stop acting like a know it all!! its as easy as going out of state to get it. everyone knows that.

so yes you can hunt with a muzzelloader [sic] without a firearms permit. you can own the componets [sic] you just can't buy them here in mass.

More ignorance from a documented source of same.

MGL 269 s. 10 (h):

(h) Whoever owns, possesses or transfers possession of a firearm, rifle, shotgun or ammunition without complying with the requirements relating to firearm identification cards as provided in section 129C of chapter 140 shall be punished by imprisonment in a jail or house of correction for not more than two years or by a fine of not more than $500. A second violation of this paragraph shall be punished by imprisonment in a jail or house of correction for not more than two years or by a fine of not more than $1,000 or both. A person committing a violation of this subsection may be arrested without a warrant by any officer authorized to make arrests.

What is "ammunition" you ask? THIS:

"Ammunition", cartridges or cartridge cases, primers (igniter), bullets or propellant powder designed for use in any firearm, rifle or shotgun. The term "ammunition" shall also mean tear gas cartridges, chemical mace or any device or instrument which contains or emits a liquid, gas, powder or any other substance designed to incapacitate.

I'd ask a dispatcher about firearms law before I asked a Fudd.

Especially one with NO credits after 2.7 years here.

 

[vellnueve]

I'd ask a dispatcher about firearms law before I asked a Fudd.

Nice one.

 

[Deer_KiLLer]

MGL 269 s. 10 (h):

(h) Whoever owns, possesses or transfers possession of a firearm, rifle, shotgun or ammunition without complying with the requirements relating to firearm identification cards as provided in section 129C of chapter 140





Chapter 140: Section 129C.


The provisions of this section shall not apply to the following exempted persons and uses:



(p) Carrying or possession by residents or nonresidents of so-called black powder rifles, shotguns, and ammunition therefor as described in such paragraphs (A) and (B) of the third paragraph of section 121, and the carrying or possession of conventional rifles, shotguns, and ammunition therefor by nonresidents who meet the requirements for such carrying or possession in the state in which they reside.

 

[SGZip]

(p) Carrying or possession by residents or nonresidents of so-called black powder rifles, shotguns, and ammunition therefor as described in such paragraphs (A) and (B) of the third paragraph of section 121...

This seems to be the only part about ammunition:

"rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade"

Again, what it appears that they meant to do with the laws does not seem to agree with how they actually wrote the laws.

 

[cricco]

Some EPO's will bust your balls for posessing primers without an FID. However, every hunter that has an OUI charge and can no longer get an FID hunts with a black powder gun. In fact, I have a buddy who hasn't had an FID in years due to youthful indiscretions. He hunts everything from deer to pheasant with his black powder shotgun. The people that tend to get hassled are the idiots who do stupid things, like carry a black powder pistol tucked in the waistband....just because. These are usualy the same types that will transport marijuana and firearms, claim to be medical marijuana dispensers in Colorado, and then come to NES for advice when they get into trouble.

 

[Scrivener]

MGL 269 s. 10 (h):

(h) Whoever owns, possesses or transfers possession of a firearm, rifle, shotgun or ammunition without complying with the requirements relating to firearm identification cards as provided in section 129C of chapter 140

THIS
IS
BAYSTATE!​

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmOH5f1J1Uc

(kicking DeerKiLLer into well)​

You are taking ONE section of ONE statute and thinking it is the be-all and end-all of the analysis. On its face, it DOES appear to answer the question. However......

This is MA, where a "firearm" means ONLY handguns in one section of the law (140) and ANY gun in another (269).

Where, as opposed to Federal law, a bare frame is not a gun because functionality is required.

Where certain convictions are no longer a bar to issuance of an FID Card after 5 years - but anyone so issued a card will be in violation of FEDERAL law if they attempt to obtain a gun with that state-issued license.

Where a "permit to purchase" a handgun while possessing only an FID Card is still ostensibly legal under one section of the law, but possession of a handgun w/o an LTC is illegal under another section of the law.

A license is required to possess "ammunition," which includes sprays. Without a license, you cannot lawfully purchase powder, primers, bullets or cases in MA.

DeerkiLLer thinks merely purchasing out of state will suffice. Well, it may get you the components, but that just sets the purchaser up for troubles back in MA.

The exemption cited is for hunting. Fine. Unless you are in (or at least near) a hunting area, with your hunting license and preferably wearing camo or blaze orange, how does one PROVE one is hunting and not in the otherwise unlawful possession of ammunition?

If NOT actually engaged in hunting, the supposed exemption is not applicable. That makes it functionally near-useless and largely illusory.

How does one distinguish possession of black powder for hunting from possession for a BPR competition, re-enactment or simply sighting a gun in?

So much for simple answers......

 

[Deer_KiLLer]

Would having a valid hunting permit with muzzle loader primitive firearm stamp be consider a reason as to have such components?

 

[Deer_KiLLer]

I think what your saying one would need a valid reason as to possessing such components?

 

[RFWAVELENGTH]

Some EPO's will bust your balls for posessing primers without an FID. However, every hunter that has an OUI charge and can no longer get an FID hunts with a black powder gun. In fact, I have a buddy who hasn't had an FID in years due to youthful indiscretions. He hunts everything from deer to pheasant with his black powder shotgun. The people that tend to get hassled are the idiots who do stupid things, like carry a black powder pistol tucked in the waistband....just because. These are usualy the same types that will transport marijuana and firearms, claim to be medical marijuana dispensers in Colorado, and then come to NES for advice when they get into trouble.

A guy that I know has both OUI and Class D (Marijuana) convictions and he was able to get his FID after 5 years. He hunts with a Remington 870 12-gauge, just like I do. The only thing that he will never be able to get is a MA LTC.

 

[Scrivener]

A guy that I know has both OUI and Class D (Marijuana) convictions and he was able to get his FID after 5 years. He hunts with a Remington 870 12-gauge, just like I do. The only thing that he will never be able to get is a MA LTC.

AND, he qualifies to be a guest of the government, as he is a prohibited person under Federal law.

 

[RFWAVELENGTH]

AND, he qualifies to be a guest of the government, as he is a prohibited person under Federal law.

He passed the NICS check and has all of the associated paperwork. Affirmative defense?

 

[spider murphy]

It doesn't have to be a federal charge for one to be federally disqualified?

EDIT...Nevermind I just noticed the other thread that cited the law.

 

[vellnueve]

He passed the NICS check and has all of the associated paperwork. Affirmative defense?

Doesn't matter - if he was convicted of those crimes he is currently committing a federal felony.

 

[GSG]

It doesnt matter. Possession is not restricted to only FID or LTC holders. It is legal to possess, period. Maybe your Dad or a friend gave it to you. Maybe you bought it out of state. I know it is logically screwed up but that is how the law is written.

http://www.goal.org/Documents/law_faq_pdfs/primitive.pdf

Carrying blackpowder pistols can still get you charged criminally in Mass.

There's an older SJC case on this, Commonwealth v. Zeitler (1979). But there's also a much more recent one, Commonwealth v. Robert Bibby (2002), which says in part:

[Note 5] In response to an inquiry from the Commissioner of Public Safety regarding the applicability of numerous firearm statutes to nonresidents coming into the Commonwealth with antique weapons for purposes of participating in various bicentennial celebrations, the Attorney General opined:

"[General Laws] c. 140, § 121 exempts certain weapons [hereinafter antique weapons] from regulation under G. L. c. 140, §§ 122-129D and §§ 131A, 131B, 131E, if they were manufactured before 1899 or are replicas of weapons manufactured prior to 1899 and if they meet the other specific requirements in section 121(A) or (B). The exemption allows antique firearms, rifles, or shotguns to be kept at home or in one's place of business without any special permit, license or card being required. However, this exemption for purposes of possession or ownership of a firearm, shotgun or rifle does not satisfy the provisions of G. L. c. 269, § 10(a), which regulates the carrying of firearms, shotguns, rifles and . . . antique weapons . . . . Thus, G. L. c. 140, § 121(A) or (B) does not exempt antique weapons from all gun control regulation." (Emphasis in original.)

Caveat emptor, especially if you're going to emptor components out of state and bring them into Mass.

Some EPO's will bust your balls for posessing primers without an FID. However, every hunter that has an OUI charge and can no longer get an FID hunts with a black powder gun. In fact, I have a buddy who hasn't had an FID in years due to youthful indiscretions. He hunts everything from deer to pheasant with his black powder shotgun. The people that tend to get hassled are the idiots who do stupid things, like carry a black powder pistol tucked in the waistband....just because.

A guy that I know has both OUI and Class D (Marijuana) convictions and he was able to get his FID after 5 years. He hunts with a Remington 870 12-gauge, just like I do. The only thing that he will never be able to get is a MA LTC.

Guys, if a Massachusetts resident has a post-1994 Massachusetts DUI conviction, they are a federally prohibited person, and even with an FID it's illegal for them to own guns. I laid it out in the below thread that I'm linking to.

Stuck with an FID? You might be a federally prohibited person

 

[Deer_KiLLer]

GSG, that’s correct even if you have an FID etc. and it also apples to black powder rifle and shotgun not just black powder handguns.

the original question was about hunting and possession of the components designed for use in black powder firearms.. the original question wasn’t about some idiot stuffing a black powder handgun in there pants and going to the mall.

transporting, storage etc... the exemption doesn’t apply to tossing a "loaded" black powder firearm in you car or pants. but removing the primers and its no longer loaded, remove everything from powder priming slug, if ones just wants to go the extra mile and a half but even without the powder and slug if the primers in there its loaded.

even with a permit you cant load your gun bow musket until your the legal distance from a road/house and or during legal hunting hours of shooting meaning you can't load it in the dark while on your way to a deer stand, your then considered hunting and its not legal shooting time.

 

[GSG]

the original question was about hunting and possession of the components designed for use in black powder firearms.. the original question wasn’t about some idiot stuffing a black powder handgun in there pants and going to the mall.

True, but thread drift isn't uncommon, and as you can see some very important legal questions were answered here, so it's not a bad thing in my opinion.

even with a permit you cant load your gun bow musket until your the legal distance from a road/house and or during legal hunting hours of shooting meaning you can't load it in the dark while on your way to a deer stand, your then considered hunting and its not legal shooting time.

Seriously? So they think a Fudd fiddling with a gun in the dark trying to load it is somehow better? I guess that's Massachusetts for you.