If I interpret correctly, LenS, regardless of being buyer or seller, you have, in the past, taken responsibility for filing the FA-10. That suggests to me, that regardless of who (buyer or seller) files the form, MA will accept the FA-10 and considerate it legitimate. But, in MA, according to what I've read, the buyer is the responsible party, which, for the purposes of this discussion, leaves the spectre of an FPrice scenario that is not easily explained to the four big men showing up at his door, regardless of his having a copy of an FA-10. So, that leaves a question for us all, is it not wise for both parties to file a post-transfer FA-10?LenS said:
-
If you enjoy the forum please consider supporting it by signing up for a NES Membership The benefits pay for the membership many times over.
FA-10
- Thread starter Rpriestlyjr
- Start date
edited by Derek
The LAW requires the FA-10s to be submitted on ALL TRANSACTIONS. You claimed to have bought 20 guns without doing them. Your claim, not mine.
Do you mean the 206.x.x.x IP or the 24.x.x.x (Comcast) IP are dead-ends?
The point is that each of us is free to do as they please, if you ask what the law requires we will tell you, if you insist on breaking the law that is up to you and you might someday be called to task for it (and you might get away with it). I still don't think it smart to admit doing anything illegal, least of all on the Internet which has a lifespan greater than our own.
The LAW requires the FA-10s to be submitted on ALL TRANSACTIONS. You claimed to have bought 20 guns without doing them. Your claim, not mine.
Do you mean the 206.x.x.x IP or the 24.x.x.x (Comcast) IP are dead-ends?
The point is that each of us is free to do as they please, if you ask what the law requires we will tell you, if you insist on breaking the law that is up to you and you might someday be called to task for it (and you might get away with it). I still don't think it smart to admit doing anything illegal, least of all on the Internet which has a lifespan greater than our own.
Mike,
Since both parties sign the form on a FTF transfer, when CHSB gets the forms in the USMail you can be sure that they never look at the return address, just throw out the envelope and put them all in a pile to be scanned.
Only thing that is likely to "kick out" would be if they spot a non-original form (bottom of each copy is marked . . . Original Copy, Dealer/Seller Copy, Buyer/Purchaser Copy) and the copy they have in hand does NOT have the "Do Not Write in This Space - For Firearms Record Bureau Use Only" on it (this ONLY exists on Original Copy)! They may return it to you demanding the "Original Copy" (which of course one party won't have). I have been told by folks that sent a letter (or created their own form) when they couldn't get a form from a local PD, that CHSB has kicked it back to them as "non compliant".
My personal objective is to make sure that the legal process is done on a buy/sell. If someone gives me an impression that they will not do the right thing, "no deal" and I'll walk (from either side of the transaction). Many years ago when I'd hang around Colman's gun counter (I shot skeet/trap with the manager and some other employees plus went to HS with another employee), I saw people walk in that I personally would NEVER have sold a gun to (due to their demeanor or behavior that I observed in the store). It is the right of each party to make that determination for any reason (except those protected by the Civil Rights Act).
Since both parties sign the form on a FTF transfer, when CHSB gets the forms in the USMail you can be sure that they never look at the return address, just throw out the envelope and put them all in a pile to be scanned.
Only thing that is likely to "kick out" would be if they spot a non-original form (bottom of each copy is marked . . . Original Copy, Dealer/Seller Copy, Buyer/Purchaser Copy) and the copy they have in hand does NOT have the "Do Not Write in This Space - For Firearms Record Bureau Use Only" on it (this ONLY exists on Original Copy)! They may return it to you demanding the "Original Copy" (which of course one party won't have). I have been told by folks that sent a letter (or created their own form) when they couldn't get a form from a local PD, that CHSB has kicked it back to them as "non compliant".
My personal objective is to make sure that the legal process is done on a buy/sell. If someone gives me an impression that they will not do the right thing, "no deal" and I'll walk (from either side of the transaction). Many years ago when I'd hang around Colman's gun counter (I shot skeet/trap with the manager and some other employees plus went to HS with another employee), I saw people walk in that I personally would NEVER have sold a gun to (due to their demeanor or behavior that I observed in the store). It is the right of each party to make that determination for any reason (except those protected by the Civil Rights Act).
Producer
NES Member
edited by Derek
I called a local BATF officer in Massachusetts. He said with a C&R, the transaction is in the Log Book, and is covered under federal law. If the guns were stolen I would have to turn over the log book to Local, State and/or Federal authorities.
I asked him about the FA-10 and he said I have to use that if I sell any gun to a Massachusetts Resident, and it was the buyers responsiblity to send it in, and he referred me to a few mass sites. He also went into something about a FA2? Form, but that only pertained to MA dealer with a 01 license.
Lens, I never INSIST on breaking the Law. I am a very law abiding citizen. For all I know, since your previos posts, I may have been told bad information; however I know you were wrong about laws in the SKS thread.
And I use Proxies for all forum posts. So yes those are bum IP’s.
I called a local BATF officer in Massachusetts. He said with a C&R, the transaction is in the Log Book, and is covered under federal law. If the guns were stolen I would have to turn over the log book to Local, State and/or Federal authorities.
I asked him about the FA-10 and he said I have to use that if I sell any gun to a Massachusetts Resident, and it was the buyers responsiblity to send it in, and he referred me to a few mass sites. He also went into something about a FA2? Form, but that only pertained to MA dealer with a 01 license.
Lens, I never INSIST on breaking the Law. I am a very law abiding citizen. For all I know, since your previos posts, I may have been told bad information; however I know you were wrong about laws in the SKS thread.
And I use Proxies for all forum posts. So yes those are bum IP’s.
Pr0ducer,
I would NOT ask a BATFE officer about MA law, it's not their jurisdiction and they really don't care (from a legal standpoint).
Just like I would NOT ask a MSP Trooper or local LEO about Fed or MA gun law, they are NOT involved in the Fed law and most of them really don't even know MA law.
As for FA-10 or not, my source of authority on that is Chief Ron Glidden directly. I asked him about it when I got my C&R FFL. When I'm in doubt, I send him an Email, call him at his office, or call him on his cell phone to get the answer.
I'm not sure what specifically you refer to about the SKS issue and monitoring these forums is taking up too much of my time currently for me to go back and check. I do know that sometimes I may post something that may not be as clear as what I had intended and may thus be incorrect as written. I know that I am not perfect and sometimes will err, when I find out I acknowledge it and try to correct it. In some matters that I don't know I'll either query Ron or if I have no interest in a particular area (e.g. AOW, SBRs, F/A, most NR issues, etc.) I'll just let it pass and let someone else answer it.
As for handing over someone's info, you heard from the boss!
However just understand that NO-ONE on these (or any other forum) are really anonymous and if LE gets a bug up their ass to go after someone, a post that implies illegal behavior (self-admission by person posting it) is all that they need to get a judge to sign off on a warrant . . . and Derek or one of us would be legally obligated to cooperate.
I would NOT ask a BATFE officer about MA law, it's not their jurisdiction and they really don't care (from a legal standpoint).
Just like I would NOT ask a MSP Trooper or local LEO about Fed or MA gun law, they are NOT involved in the Fed law and most of them really don't even know MA law.
As for FA-10 or not, my source of authority on that is Chief Ron Glidden directly. I asked him about it when I got my C&R FFL. When I'm in doubt, I send him an Email, call him at his office, or call him on his cell phone to get the answer.
I'm not sure what specifically you refer to about the SKS issue and monitoring these forums is taking up too much of my time currently for me to go back and check. I do know that sometimes I may post something that may not be as clear as what I had intended and may thus be incorrect as written. I know that I am not perfect and sometimes will err, when I find out I acknowledge it and try to correct it. In some matters that I don't know I'll either query Ron or if I have no interest in a particular area (e.g. AOW, SBRs, F/A, most NR issues, etc.) I'll just let it pass and let someone else answer it.
As for handing over someone's info, you heard from the boss!
However just understand that NO-ONE on these (or any other forum) are really anonymous and if LE gets a bug up their ass to go after someone, a post that implies illegal behavior (self-admission by person posting it) is all that they need to get a judge to sign off on a warrant . . . and Derek or one of us would be legally obligated to cooperate.
Nothing here precludes the buyer and the seller from each sending in FA-10 originals to CHSB. Granted, it's more paperwork to be done, but not impossible to achieve.LenS said:
This is a scenario I think, if I were to follow through with a transfer, I'd want to make sure duplicate originals (buyer and seller) were completed for filing. Which makes me think there are gray areas here. It's one thing to do a transfer with someone trusted than with someone unknown. And, I'd lean more towards duplicate originals if the transfer took place in a shopping mall parking lot with no one else around than if the transfer took place in a heavily populated gun club surrounded by Range Officers witnessing the activity.LenS said:
![[wink]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/002.gif "Wink [wink]")
With that, I've been elected to make an ammunition run. TTFN
Hee-Hee-Hee. looks like I opened up a little can-o-worms here.
But thanks for all of the insight and answers. It really seems to me that the FA-10 is 1). just a way to CYA in the unfortunate event that a firearm you sold at one time is used in a crime of some sort. 2). a way for the 'man' to track what is out there, and 3). to be able to find out and/or recover something that may have been used in a crime or stolen from somewhere in the past.
Many states do not have this requirement for person-to-person transactions, but I have seen sellers take down any and all personal information of the sellee to CYA.
Again, thanks for clarifying.
But thanks for all of the insight and answers. It really seems to me that the FA-10 is 1). just a way to CYA in the unfortunate event that a firearm you sold at one time is used in a crime of some sort. 2). a way for the 'man' to track what is out there, and 3). to be able to find out and/or recover something that may have been used in a crime or stolen from somewhere in the past.
Many states do not have this requirement for person-to-person transactions, but I have seen sellers take down any and all personal information of the sellee to CYA.
Again, thanks for clarifying.
I would not do duplicate original FA-10s. Improper and inappropriate.
I do, however, create a Bill of Sale (2 originals) with gun, buyer and seller info on it. Both sign it and each gets an original. This is my personal CYA (and I'd do it if I ever lived in a free state too).
Unless the buyer/seller is a personal friend, no transactions at either party's house. We'll do it at a gun club, yours or mine. No transactions in a parking lot either, too many surveillance cameras can lead to a SWAT team showing up in these paranoid days. In the old days, when I was on the PD (and before the current chief), I would have been willing to meet someone at the PD for a sale/trade.
As a Constable, I have had some (pro-see, those representing themselves) clients ask to meet me at my home office to give me papers to serve. Same basic rule, I use a PO Box for my business address and I'll meet them either at the Town Hall or at Starbucks, but only will meet attorneys or friends at my house for business purposes.
If that isn't good enough or raises objections, no deal and see you later . . .
I do, however, create a Bill of Sale (2 originals) with gun, buyer and seller info on it. Both sign it and each gets an original. This is my personal CYA (and I'd do it if I ever lived in a free state too).
Unless the buyer/seller is a personal friend, no transactions at either party's house. We'll do it at a gun club, yours or mine. No transactions in a parking lot either, too many surveillance cameras can lead to a SWAT team showing up in these paranoid days. In the old days, when I was on the PD (and before the current chief), I would have been willing to meet someone at the PD for a sale/trade.
As a Constable, I have had some (pro-see, those representing themselves) clients ask to meet me at my home office to give me papers to serve. Same basic rule, I use a PO Box for my business address and I'll meet them either at the Town Hall or at Starbucks, but only will meet attorneys or friends at my house for business purposes.
If that isn't good enough or raises objections, no deal and see you later . . .
My FFL was asked by a local PD about a gun "of interest" (I don't know what the circumstances were and did not ask). He supplied the information he could and later found out that this gun came back as being owned/registered/linked (whatever the proper term would be) to five people. I wonder if all five people got the same invitation.
My point was simply if such a scenario should ever come to pass, I want to be able to prove or demonstrate that I indeed sold the firearm and complied with applicable MGL as to reporting. In my limited experience it is much better to be able to present good information rather than exclaim, "Huh???".
I have sent a private request to Chief Ron Glidden regarding the following:
- The double FA-10 issue,
- Sending FA-10s via Certified/Return Receipt,
- And to request CHSB to be more "cooperative" when citizens call to get more than 1 or 2 FA-10s (e.g. C&R holders who request a "bunch" and get told to buy them, get them from dealer or "you only need a couple since you can't sell more than 4 guns/year").
I also asked Ron's permission to post his response to the first two items as a quote.
Stand-by for future info.
- The double FA-10 issue,
- Sending FA-10s via Certified/Return Receipt,
- And to request CHSB to be more "cooperative" when citizens call to get more than 1 or 2 FA-10s (e.g. C&R holders who request a "bunch" and get told to buy them, get them from dealer or "you only need a couple since you can't sell more than 4 guns/year").
I also asked Ron's permission to post his response to the first two items as a quote.
Stand-by for future info.
I am not sure how much we clarified as we posted our personal preferences and procedures. But the bottom line is: any personal transfer within the Commonwealth of Massachusetts must be reported in accordance with MGL.
Ron's response was that he has a GCAB scheduled for this Friday and will address those issues to CHSB at that time and get back to me with their responses.
Stay tuned!
Stay tuned!
Please refer to the Locked Sticky I just posted with Ron's reply.
http://northeastshooters.com/viewtopic.php?t=4818
I am moving this discussion to Gun Laws as a more appropriate place for an FA-10 discussion.
http://northeastshooters.com/viewtopic.php?t=4818
I am moving this discussion to Gun Laws as a more appropriate place for an FA-10 discussion.
Great sticky, Len...thanks!
This all great information.
I'm expecting a CMP M1 soon
. I stopped by my PD today to pick up the FA-10 Form. They told me the FA-10 is obsolete and gave me the Firearm Sale/Rental/Lease Transaction Form, which I guess is the replacement for FA-10.
Since CMP isn't going to be filling this form out, what do I enter in the Seller Information section? Does CMP have an FFL? If so, will it be listed in the paperwork that arrives with the rifle?
Thanks-
I'm expecting a CMP M1 soon
. I stopped by my PD today to pick up the FA-10 Form. They told me the FA-10 is obsolete and gave me the Firearm Sale/Rental/Lease Transaction Form, which I guess is the replacement for FA-10.Since CMP isn't going to be filling this form out, what do I enter in the Seller Information section? Does CMP have an FFL? If so, will it be listed in the paperwork that arrives with the rifle?
Thanks-
SY,
Please do a search here (button at top) on C&Rs and FA-10s. Info has already been posted here probably a dozen times.
Thanks.
Please do a search here (button at top) on C&Rs and FA-10s. Info has already been posted here probably a dozen times.
Thanks.
Thanks Len-
I did some more searching... perhaps the answer lies in your remarks about "Registration" ... no need to fill out seller info on a CMP transaction as long as you check the Registration box.
As for the FA-10 itself, do we need to refer to it as something else now? Some people at my PD didn't know what an FA-10 was. Not because they didn't have the correct form, but because it isn't called FA-10 anymore.
I did some more searching... perhaps the answer lies in your remarks about "Registration" ... no need to fill out seller info on a CMP transaction as long as you check the Registration box.
As for the FA-10 itself, do we need to refer to it as something else now? Some people at my PD didn't know what an FA-10 was. Not because they didn't have the correct form, but because it isn't called FA-10 anymore.
The one I got yesterday says:
Firearms Sale/Rental/Lease Transaction Form
"This form replaces the FA-1 Reporting Card, FA-2 Registration Card and FA-10 Dealer Book which are now obsolete."
That's the Instructions cover sheet.
But the bottom of the actual form says: Form F. A. - 10 10/98.
So the instructions for the FA-10 say that the FA-10 is obsolete. [lol] [lol] [lol]
Lewis Carroll must be writing for the Criminal History Systems Board. [roll]
Firearms Sale/Rental/Lease Transaction Form
"This form replaces the FA-1 Reporting Card, FA-2 Registration Card and FA-10 Dealer Book which are now obsolete."
That's the Instructions cover sheet.
But the bottom of the actual form says: Form F. A. - 10 10/98.
So the instructions for the FA-10 say that the FA-10 is obsolete. [lol] [lol] [lol]
Lewis Carroll must be writing for the Criminal History Systems Board. [roll]
"This form replaces the FA-1 Reporting Card, FA-2 Registration Card and FA-10 Dealer Book which are now obsolete."
IOW, this new form (F.A.- 10, revision date 10/98 ) now replaces these three obsolete items:
(1) FA-1 Reporting Card,
(2) FA-2 Registration Card, and
(3) FA-10 Dealer Book.
Ken
IOW, this new form (F.A.- 10, revision date 10/98 ) now replaces these three obsolete items:
(1) FA-1 Reporting Card,
(2) FA-2 Registration Card, and
(3) FA-10 Dealer Book.
Ken
Len, Ken, and all,
You are all a plethora of insight and information. I really appreciate the info and have come to these conclusions:
1.) PRoM wants to know what is exactly in this state (which will never happen) and will further twist laws in order to confuse the public. Therefore when it comes time to (hopefully not) go to court over a firearms issue, the owner of such firearm(s) will always be accountable and at fault.
2.) The PRoM wants to continuously track these transactions for further taxes and future licensing fees for whatever goes into a general fund' (whatever that is).
3.) This is not a 'Free State.'
4.) I'm moving.
I can really see in the not so distant future that one will have to pay a fee for a FA-10 form (O-Magic 8-Ball....show me the future...) because it 'costs the state to print the form.'
It is amazing to me that the people who write these laws just really have no clue as to what they are getting into. And I thought Bugs Bunny should have sawed away CA into the left coast....he should have sawed away 128 and let everything flow back to England!
Kind of reminds me of the nuclear arms treaty that we got into with the old USSR. Who broke the treaty? WE DID!
I'm an average, everyday guy. I don't do anything wrong except the 'once every 15 years' speeding or parking ticket. I have a dog that loves kids. I drive a big-ol' pickup truck. Don't make much $. Try to save for a house someday. Am a Vet. I hunt, fish, camp, enjoy the outdoors. I like beer. I have guns (although no so-called assault weapons). And I voted for Romney and Bush.
My truck is registered, insured and inspected. So is my dog.
I get by just like everyone else.
So why should I (and I mean WE) put up with this abuse from the state? Granted, I don't have the opportunities to lobby, coerce, and/or push my representatives into what I want to happen to secure my own way of life.
I believe this state is going to try to be a national front-runner in screwing up the lives of many from the dollars from few.
It would be so nice to live on a little knoll off of a mountain with nothing to worry about but paying the usual annual taxes.
Maybe someday.......COME ON POWERBALL!!!!
Thanks again, all. Like I said, I like beer.
You are all a plethora of insight and information. I really appreciate the info and have come to these conclusions:
1.) PRoM wants to know what is exactly in this state (which will never happen) and will further twist laws in order to confuse the public. Therefore when it comes time to (hopefully not) go to court over a firearms issue, the owner of such firearm(s) will always be accountable and at fault.
2.) The PRoM wants to continuously track these transactions for further taxes and future licensing fees for whatever goes into a general fund' (whatever that is).
3.) This is not a 'Free State.'
4.) I'm moving.
I can really see in the not so distant future that one will have to pay a fee for a FA-10 form (O-Magic 8-Ball....show me the future...) because it 'costs the state to print the form.'
It is amazing to me that the people who write these laws just really have no clue as to what they are getting into. And I thought Bugs Bunny should have sawed away CA into the left coast....he should have sawed away 128 and let everything flow back to England!
Kind of reminds me of the nuclear arms treaty that we got into with the old USSR. Who broke the treaty? WE DID!
I'm an average, everyday guy. I don't do anything wrong except the 'once every 15 years' speeding or parking ticket. I have a dog that loves kids. I drive a big-ol' pickup truck. Don't make much $. Try to save for a house someday. Am a Vet. I hunt, fish, camp, enjoy the outdoors. I like beer. I have guns (although no so-called assault weapons). And I voted for Romney and Bush.
My truck is registered, insured and inspected. So is my dog.
I get by just like everyone else.
So why should I (and I mean WE) put up with this abuse from the state? Granted, I don't have the opportunities to lobby, coerce, and/or push my representatives into what I want to happen to secure my own way of life.
I believe this state is going to try to be a national front-runner in screwing up the lives of many from the dollars from few.
It would be so nice to live on a little knoll off of a mountain with nothing to worry about but paying the usual annual taxes.
Maybe someday.......COME ON POWERBALL!!!!
Thanks again, all. Like I said, I like beer.
