I'm under the impression that if someone sells to you in this state a firearm that is compliant, and has never had a FA-10 filled out on it, that the FA-10 is not necessary. Is there supposed to be another type of form to fill out or is it on the seller of the firearm? This would be a non-ffl to non-ffl, and covering all firearms except machine guns.
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FA-10
- Thread starter Rpriestlyjr
- Start date
To my understanding, regardless of whether the firearm is MA Compliant or not, if you are doing a FTF non-ffl to non-ffl transfer, an FA-10 form is mandatory! Please correct me if I am wrong.
If you purchase a firearm from another person in Massachusetts, you must report this sale to the state on an FA-10 as a personal transfer. This whether the firearm is "compliant" or not. I could move from another state to Massachusetts with a so-called "non-compliant" firearm (fully automatic firearms excepted) and then sell it FTF to a second person as long as they had the proper license.
The seller is responsible for sending the FA-10 to the state.
The seller is responsible for sending the FA-10 to the state.
You understand incorrectly.
Per MGL, an FA-10 form is REQUIRED for all TRANSACTIONS in MA or if one brings in a gun from an outside location (2nd home, inheritance, buying a long gun out of state, etc.)! ONLY exception is for people who move in WITH THEIR GUNS (not if you bring guns in 5 months after you move in).
Failure to do so, is a punishable offense and grounds for revocation of your LTC as an "unsuitable person". [Almost anything is "grounds for revocation of LTC" under MGL, since it is discretionary on the chief about "suitable person", however failure to comply with the sales and registration laws would probably weigh heavily on his "suitability scale".]
Caveat emptor!
Per MGL, an FA-10 form is REQUIRED for all TRANSACTIONS in MA or if one brings in a gun from an outside location (2nd home, inheritance, buying a long gun out of state, etc.)! ONLY exception is for people who move in WITH THEIR GUNS (not if you bring guns in 5 months after you move in).
Failure to do so, is a punishable offense and grounds for revocation of your LTC as an "unsuitable person". [Almost anything is "grounds for revocation of LTC" under MGL, since it is discretionary on the chief about "suitable person", however failure to comply with the sales and registration laws would probably weigh heavily on his "suitability scale".]
Caveat emptor!
USMA-82
NES Member
Just remember, SOMEBODY has to fill out that form and send it in. If not the seller (because they are from out of state where you are purchasing a long gun, for example), then the Massachusetts BUYER has to fill it out and send it.
Almost forgot that little rule when my M-1 Garand came via Fedex to my front door from CMP. THEY certainly had no requirement to fill out the state's form, so it was MY responsibility to do it.
Same thing when I got my M-1 Carbine from Charles Hadley of Cape Elizabeth, Maine while at the Springfield show. He filled out the federal form, but not the FA-10. That was left to me.
Almost forgot that little rule when my M-1 Garand came via Fedex to my front door from CMP. THEY certainly had no requirement to fill out the state's form, so it was MY responsibility to do it.
Same thing when I got my M-1 Carbine from Charles Hadley of Cape Elizabeth, Maine while at the Springfield show. He filled out the federal form, but not the FA-10. That was left to me.
"Question: What happens if someone (boyfriend, family, etc...) gives you a gun they have owned for a while? I didn't think a form was necessary, but correct me if I'm wrong."
Consider yourself corrected.
I thought Len's post explained the requirements quite clearly, but apparently I was wrong.
Consider yourself corrected.
I thought Len's post explained the requirements quite clearly, but apparently I was wrong.
I really don't understand why people find this one so confusing. It's the rare exception where the text of the law is simple and to the point.
IOW, if you buy a gun, get a gun as a gift, inheret a gun, bring into Massachusetts a gun that you owned when you lived in some other state (except when you first move here), or get a gun in any other way except by purchasing one from a Massachusetts licensed dealer, then you haave to report this fact on a form FA-10 within 7 days. First offense is a simple fine (along with a probable loss of your LTC as an "unsuitable" person); any repeat offense is a major felony, resulting in permanent disqualification from ever possessing any firearm.
As had been stated at least a dozen times in various places, "compliant" or "AG approved" have absolutely no significance for FTF transactions between properly licensed individuals. Either one is like thinking that guns with plastic grips/stocks are somehow legally different from otherwise identical guns with wooden grips/stocks.
Ken
IOW, if you buy a gun, get a gun as a gift, inheret a gun, bring into Massachusetts a gun that you owned when you lived in some other state (except when you first move here), or get a gun in any other way except by purchasing one from a Massachusetts licensed dealer, then you haave to report this fact on a form FA-10 within 7 days. First offense is a simple fine (along with a probable loss of your LTC as an "unsuitable" person); any repeat offense is a major felony, resulting in permanent disqualification from ever possessing any firearm.
As had been stated at least a dozen times in various places, "compliant" or "AG approved" have absolutely no significance for FTF transactions between properly licensed individuals. Either one is like thinking that guns with plastic grips/stocks are somehow legally different from otherwise identical guns with wooden grips/stocks.
Ken
This came from the FRB:
The F/A 10 form is to register the Transfer of Ownership of a firearm, rifle or shotgun. If someone moves into MA they do not need to fill one out for any firearm they own before moving in independant of when the guns are brought in.
The same also holds true if you are a dual resident and make a purchase at your second home while a resident of that other state. (Side note CHSB said that you can get a res-LTC if MA is a dual residence for you.)
If you make a purchase in ME or NH and leave it outside of the state there is also no need to file the F/A 10 since the gun is not in MA. Once you bring it across the line, you have 7 days to file the report.
The F/A 10 form is to register the Transfer of Ownership of a firearm, rifle or shotgun. If someone moves into MA they do not need to fill one out for any firearm they own before moving in independant of when the guns are brought in.
The same also holds true if you are a dual resident and make a purchase at your second home while a resident of that other state. (Side note CHSB said that you can get a res-LTC if MA is a dual residence for you.)
If you make a purchase in ME or NH and leave it outside of the state there is also no need to file the F/A 10 since the gun is not in MA. Once you bring it across the line, you have 7 days to file the report.
centermass181
NES Member
a little tip for those 'slow to the stamp' like me, I try not to date the form until Im just getting ready to mail it. That 7 day time limit comes up quick sometimes.
Related question: Does anyone know if the FA-10 is available on-line anywhere? Can't seem to find it if so. Was headed to my local P.D. later this morning to pick one up, but thought I'd ask here first.
As always, thanks.
Steve
As always, thanks.
Steve
USMA-82 said:
I find this a bit confusing. If I follow this correctly an out-of-state seller is not necessarily required to file an FA-10, thereby leaving the onus of responsibility to file (the FA-10) on the buyer if the buyer is in MA. However, that leaves me to wonder about an FTF in MA (meaning nothing out-of-state) and who it is, the buyer or seller, that is required to file the FA-10 post-transaction. It seems, by what I'm reading here, that a seller need not always be the FA-10 filer causing the buyer to take care of the process. So, let's say the MA FTF seller says, "I'll take care of filing the form," but doesn't do so. How would the buyer know this form had not been filed by the seller to know that s/he (the buyer) would need to complete the filing? Should both buyer and seller file an FA-10 to be on the safe side? Forgive me if these questions appear silly, I'm new to this stuff and may be involved in an FTF soon enough to want to know the answer(s). And, I'm posting these questions as I may not be the only one confused on the issue.
It clearly states on the form, that in a FTF in MA. The SELLER is responsible for submitting the form. In reality, who cares if he doesn't do it? If anything ever comes up, you have your copy of the form to prove you own it.
Adam
Adam
Questions are not silly, it's one of the ways we learn. Personally I sometimes take two or three (or more) times before I understand a particular issue myself.
The seller is responsible for submitting the FA-10. Mainly because the firearm is on their "record" so to speak so it is incumbent upon them to show that they transferred it and to whom. The FFL has to do this (by law) so the seller in an FTF transfer should accept the same responsibility.
If you were selling a firearm in this state, wouldn't you want to be able to prove that you did in fact transfer it if there were problems down the road?
Edited to add: This is primarily for a FTF transfer between two Massachusetts-licensed individuals where the firearm is already "registered" in-state. Others have pointed out situations where the seller may not be in a position to file an FA-10 such as the CMP. Also, a person who moves to this state with a firearm and subsequently sells it in-state may not be as concerned and in that situation the buyer might well ask to assume the responsibility.
I hope this helps clarify the situation for you.
USMA-82
NES Member
Mike:
Real good question - I had the same thoughts myself with the couple of FTF purchases I made. The way I see it, the BUYER should assume responsibility for filling out the form - that's the way it reads in the regs, too. That way, you know for sure that the paperwork got sent into the state, and not "forgotten" about in some pile at the seller's house.
I don't think it would be a horrible offense if TWO copies of the same form were sent to the state, but it would be easier for the buyer to just make it clear up front that he wants to take care of the process. If the seller insisted that he, and only he, would do the FA-10, that would 1) send up a red flag, and 2) cause me to send my own copy to the state anyway.
Might be a good idea to print out a copy of the regulation to have in case this becomes an issue. It CLEARLY puts the responsibility on the buyer.
Real good question - I had the same thoughts myself with the couple of FTF purchases I made. The way I see it, the BUYER should assume responsibility for filling out the form - that's the way it reads in the regs, too. That way, you know for sure that the paperwork got sent into the state, and not "forgotten" about in some pile at the seller's house.
I don't think it would be a horrible offense if TWO copies of the same form were sent to the state, but it would be easier for the buyer to just make it clear up front that he wants to take care of the process. If the seller insisted that he, and only he, would do the FA-10, that would 1) send up a red flag, and 2) cause me to send my own copy to the state anyway.
Might be a good idea to print out a copy of the regulation to have in case this becomes an issue. It CLEARLY puts the responsibility on the buyer.
USMA-82
NES Member
Where's the confusion, guys? Yes an FFL will take care of the form, but in a face-to-face, it should be the "resident" who "purchases or obtains":
Chapter 140: Section 128B.
Any resident of the commonwealth who purchases or obtains a firearm, rifle or shotgun or machine gun from any source within or without the commonwealth, other than from a licensee under section one hundred and twenty-two ... shall within seven days after receiving such firearm, rifle, shotgun or machine gun, report, in writing, to the executive director of the criminal history systems board....
Ken
Chapter 140: Section 128B.
Any resident of the commonwealth who purchases or obtains a firearm, rifle or shotgun or machine gun from any source within or without the commonwealth, other than from a licensee under section one hundred and twenty-two ... shall within seven days after receiving such firearm, rifle, shotgun or machine gun, report, in writing, to the executive director of the criminal history systems board....
Ken
Ken,
The confusion, if that's what you want to call it, is that the statute as quoted leaves a little bit of a potential problem for the previous owner of the firearm. Again, assuming that both parties are individuals within the state and the firearm has been previously reported to the state by the seller.
Let's go back to a previous statement you made:
Okay, you have firearm for sale. You advertise it and get a call:
"Hi. I saw your advertisement and I'd like to buy your large-capacity 9mm. I have the proper license and an FA-10 ready to go."
You meet, he gives you the money, gives you the form all filled out for you to sign, takes it back, gives you your copy and your money and leaves saying he will file the form with the state immediately."
Several months later you get a visit from three or four large men in uniform:
"Ken, you are listed as the last owner of a 9mm pistol used to rob several little old ladies of all their bingo winnings. We found the pistol at the scene of the last crime. Where were you on that day?"
"Oh, I sold that to a guy, here's the form."
"Well, that form was never filed with the state and that name and LTC are not listed in our records, please come with us."
A little far-fetched? Perhaps. But you might have prevented your involvement by filing the form yourself and having that proof.
If you buy a firearm from me, first I will check your license and second I will fill out the FA-10, allow you to proof it and agree, then sign it. I will send it to the CHSB via Certified Mail and keep the receipt along with all other records of that firearm. That way I know that the sale of a firearm which I had owned was reported to the state and I have some documentation to back that up.
Perhaps not as per the letter of the law but in my POV more protective of me as the seller.
Your tolerance of potential risk may vary, but that is your decision.
The confusion, if that's what you want to call it, is that the statute as quoted leaves a little bit of a potential problem for the previous owner of the firearm. Again, assuming that both parties are individuals within the state and the firearm has been previously reported to the state by the seller.
Let's go back to a previous statement you made:
Okay, you have firearm for sale. You advertise it and get a call:
"Hi. I saw your advertisement and I'd like to buy your large-capacity 9mm. I have the proper license and an FA-10 ready to go."
You meet, he gives you the money, gives you the form all filled out for you to sign, takes it back, gives you your copy and your money and leaves saying he will file the form with the state immediately."
Several months later you get a visit from three or four large men in uniform:
"Ken, you are listed as the last owner of a 9mm pistol used to rob several little old ladies of all their bingo winnings. We found the pistol at the scene of the last crime. Where were you on that day?"
"Oh, I sold that to a guy, here's the form."
"Well, that form was never filed with the state and that name and LTC are not listed in our records, please come with us."
A little far-fetched? Perhaps. But you might have prevented your involvement by filing the form yourself and having that proof.
If you buy a firearm from me, first I will check your license and second I will fill out the FA-10, allow you to proof it and agree, then sign it. I will send it to the CHSB via Certified Mail and keep the receipt along with all other records of that firearm. That way I know that the sale of a firearm which I had owned was reported to the state and I have some documentation to back that up.
Perhaps not as per the letter of the law but in my POV more protective of me as the seller.
Your tolerance of potential risk may vary, but that is your decision.
FPrice said:
Ma law is not necessarily written to make interpretation easy to follow, nor make sense, especially where firearms are concerned. It does appear that the FTF MA buyer is responsible for filing the FA-10 unless, according to Chapter 140: Section 122 where the licensee appears to be descriptive of a dealer. That doesn't give much protection to the seller if the buyer doesn't followup with the filing process post-transaction. Then, the scenario presented by FPrice could, likely or not, become a reality. Consequently, regardless of onto whom the filing responsibility falls, if the filing does not take place, both parties could be in a regrettable position. That raises the question, should both parties file an FA-10, perhaps via registered mail to CYA? Is the law such that the buyer and the seller can't file separate FA-10s?
Mike508 said:
Mike,
Not to worry, I bring my own FA-10s, whether I am the buyer or the seller (other than a dealer transaction in MA), it is a "WE" fill them out (not just the seller), sign them, and the original goes in a pre-addressed envelope and mailed on the way home while each of us gets to retain a copy for ourselves. I've always taken "personal responsibility" to make sure that the task was done!
When I got my C&R FFL, I printed out a pile of envelopes to CHSB
and I called them and requested a pile of FA-10s (thanks to Ron Glidden's advice) which I am still using today.For out of state purchases (and especially with a C&R FFL), the seller will NEVER fill out an FA-10, nor do I report the seller's information . . . it is a "registration" at that point.
centermass181 said:
BAD IDEA!
Just bring an envelope already addressed, stuff it at the time of transaction and drop it at the nearest postal box on the way home.
I seriously doubt that CHSB compares dates on FA-10s with dates on envelopes. They have better things to do than try to nail someone for mailing it 9 days after transaction! And unlike the IRS, they don't keep the envelopes! [Yes, if you are ever audited by IRS, you will see your original 1040 with envelope stapled to the return! I know from personal experience.
]
edited by Derek
USMA-82
NES Member
Well, criminal activity aside, and getting back to the issue at hand...
I think Frosty brings up some good points. Of course, you could turn the scenario around and say, "what happens when the men in black BDU's show up to the buyer's house and want proof of where the gun came from - they never received the FA-10, and have no record of the seller"
But I think the idea of sending the form with a receipt acknowledgement is extremely good. I do the same thing with my taxes (which saved me some late filing fees once when it turned out they sent both the federal and state forms to the same address!), so why not with something as important as this?
I still think it may be in the best interests of both buyer and seller if they both send in a copy to the state. I think the chances of someone at the CHSB complaining (or even noticing) is about nil, and it covers all the bases.
I think I'll have to see what Cross-X has to say about this one....
I think Frosty brings up some good points. Of course, you could turn the scenario around and say, "what happens when the men in black BDU's show up to the buyer's house and want proof of where the gun came from - they never received the FA-10, and have no record of the seller"
But I think the idea of sending the form with a receipt acknowledgement is extremely good. I do the same thing with my taxes (which saved me some late filing fees once when it turned out they sent both the federal and state forms to the same address!), so why not with something as important as this?
I still think it may be in the best interests of both buyer and seller if they both send in a copy to the state. I think the chances of someone at the CHSB complaining (or even noticing) is about nil, and it covers all the bases.
I think I'll have to see what Cross-X has to say about this one....
FPrice said:
Frosty,
First off if a gun you EVER OWNED shows up at a crime scene, you are almost certainly going to get an invitation to "go downtown" to answer some questions! Remember the database does NOT erase your ownership upon receipt of a subsequent FA-10 sale/transfer!
Having your copy of the FA-10 is very useful to prove a legit transaction, regardless if you are the buyer or seller. [BOTH parties get a carbon-less copy as well as the original that gets filed with CHSB is created.]
It won't matter if the state ever received the form or not on a transfer! Your FA-10 is proof of what you bought or did with the gun.
If you want to waste your money on certified/return receipt, have at it . . . but there is NO requirement of doing so and there is NO real advantage either (IANAL). If you know anything about how the postal system works for big businesses/gov't agencies, you are VERY UNLIKELY to ever get the green card back! BTDT and have had the US Postal Manual stuffed in my face when I filed a complaint.
Places like CHSB which receive mailbags of mail each day . . . the following is applicable:
- Most such large businesses send a truck to the USPO and pick up the bags of mail to bring them back to their own mailroom for sorting/distribution.
- Most certified mail will end up in those bags, nobody signs for it and the green card never returned. I personally had this happen to me twice: one letter to the Commr of IRS in DC and the other was a letter to the Sec of Public Safety - never got back the green cards and had Postmaster show me section in US Postal Manual that in essence says that they should NOT accept Certified/Return Receipt mail to gov't agencies, blah, blah (it was >30 years ago, don't recall the detail of the regulation).
- In the second case above, I also found out that it is USPO policy NOT to refund you on the "non service" of no returned green card. In both my cases, I received phone call or letter from addressee's office such that it was my proof that the mail was delivered in spite of no green card. [I also learned that a local Postmaster CAN (if they want to) refund you on the non-service in spite of official policy.]
As for the comment that the seller "gives you the form all filled out", it "shouldn't be" that simple! You and s/he should plunk down the LTCs, either party writes down all the info from the gun and LTCs, BOTH parties should proof-read it BEFORE SIGNING, sign it, distribute copies and head off into the night! I look at it as a dual responsibility. I even check gun S/N and description against FA-10 in a dealer transaction before signing it.
Since there is only 1 Original and CHSB scans the forms in, if you were to each send in a form, one would be a copy and probably be kicked back to you by CHSB as "not machine readable" (even if it really was readable)! It is my understanding that they don't like copies and will only deal with the original on official form (although the law does NOT mandate use of said form).
My advice, keep it simple, take dual responsibility, don't deal with anyone that makes you suspicious, stop listening for black helicopters, and sleep well at night.
So what would the buyer do? Make a photo copy of his copy of the form and mail that in? I don't even think a photo copy of an original form (the incorrect part for that matter) would even make it into the system, but rather file 86'd.
And if the "Boys in Blue" do show up wondering why you have an unregistered firearm, you can simply show them your copy of the FA-10 that you got when you got the firearm. Because you are keeping all of those in a safe place right? I know I am!
In either case, the form states that the seller is to send in the copy to the CHSB, so wouldn't the onus be on the seller for not filing the form?
Adam
And if the "Boys in Blue" do show up wondering why you have an unregistered firearm, you can simply show them your copy of the FA-10 that you got when you got the firearm. Because you are keeping all of those in a safe place right? I know I am!
In either case, the form states that the seller is to send in the copy to the CHSB, so wouldn't the onus be on the seller for not filing the form?
Adam
