FA-10 forms

[sschevy]

It was provided at one point.

During that time the paper forms were no longer provided, does that mean that existing paper forms out there during the shortage were invalid?

You are over thinking this.

Nope it was never announced that the paper forms were invalid....but is was announced that the PDF's were no longer accepted.....Are they just blowing smoke up everyone's a** about this? I do not know...but I am not going to be the test subject...

I have a copy of the letter and the pdf has been taken down...there is no way to over think this...its black and white

This has been enjoyable but I will stop beating a dead horse now and let you guys continue debating legal issues if you choose

 

[namedpipes]

...Court battle over the FA 10....Not what I meant, proving your gun is no longer yours is what I meant, if in the rare situation something goes horribly wrong...You trust the justice system in this state enough to take your word as proof... then go for it.....

I'll assume you have faithfully filed fa-10 on everything you own. With a handle like sschevy I assume you've been around a while and the compliant attitude is due to liberal leanings, not youthful ... bliss. Lets assume you've bought and sold more than a couple firearms in your lifetime.

You can request your history of ownership from the FRB. It will probably list most of your currently owned firearms along with most of the firearms you have sold. I say most because their database is frightfully fragile. I make that assertion based on my own credentials and in observing the process and procedure of registering transfers. Others here have first hand knowledge of the database we discuss and have the same opinion. Notice, the list WILL INCLUDE firearms you have sold, as presently owned by you. Think about that for a bit.

The point is, the list is likely to be inaccurate unless you've bought say, two guns, from dealers and never sold any.

So, you submit a request for your own records and let us know if it is accurate. If it is, I'll chip in a couple bucks towards a ticket to some Green shoot this year and I feel confident I can convince some others to chip in as well. (I'm not a big gambler) If it is wrong in any respect, YOU have to buy or sell a firearm (it can be a cheap Saturday night special or better, get in on the NES Lower Buy going on right now) and file the FA-10 as a pdf.

Ironically, the form you submit to get your history is a PDF you print out and fill in. Here it is:

http://www.mass.gov/eopss/docs/chsb/firearms/request-for-personal-search.pdf

 

[mac1911]

I dont know whats the hupla is all about its going to be at least a few years before they even get to the 2008 envelopes sent in. By then most will be rotted and wet from piss poor storg\age

 

[Len-2A Training]

Court battle over the FA 10....Not what I meant, proving your gun is no longer yours is what I meant, if in the rare situation something goes horribly wrong...You trust the justice system in this state enough to take your word as proof... then go for it..

Proving you don't own something has always been a problem. Proving a "negative" is a Herculean task, no matter what.

There is NO mechanism to "unregister" any gun in the EOPS system, so if LE plugs your name in they will find everything that was registered to you during/after-1986 (dealer) or post-10/21/1998 (FTF) even if you sold it to a dealer or another individual. The police are still "gonna come knockin'" and you'll still be in the hotseat.

I'll give you two of my "hot button issues" with the e-FA-10 form that puts everyone in a very precarious position:

- Unless you have the ability to print it out and both of you sign it at the time/place you do the FTF transfer, YOU (and other party) have NO PROOF that the transaction ever took place. And if "they come knockin'" an unsigned form may not convince them that you are telling the truth.

- For the sake of discussion . . . if you and I do ONE transaction together, I have your info. If I want to be dishonest and "get rid of some guns on paper only", nothing prevents me from "creating" further transactions between us that you'll never know anything about until "they come knockin'". Since there are no signatures on the forms and the only PIN required is from the seller, you could find yourself accused of owning some guns that you've never even seen.

As reported by others, some had the filled out form "disappear" from their screens and thus they never even captured a copy for themselves to print later. I don't know if the person made an error and hit a wrong key or there is a bug in the EOPS system, but not having the paper copy as MY PROOF is not something I want to risk. YMMV. [Jason Guida informed me that for security reasons (minimize the risk of hacking the database) there is no "going back" to see what you did previously.]

I want signatures for my personal proof. I don't care that EOPS accepts "Send" as proof of a transaction. No transfers will ever happen at my house (where I have my printer) unless I consider the person a personal friend beforehand. I can do e-transfers at BR&P, but have no access to a printer there (and have no intention of buying one special for the purpose) . . . and even this is only because as a firearms instructor I purchased a laptop to use to teach, otherwise I would never own one and rely strictly on my non-movable desktop computer. I can't even do that much at Mansfield F&G as we had no Internet access (before the building collapse).

 

[mousegunfan]

I dont know whats the hupla is all about its going to be at least a few years before they even get to the 2008 envelopes sent in. By then most will be rotted and wet from piss poor storg\age

Just wondering, are you being sarcastic, or are they storing the envelopes without scanning them?

 

[namedpipes]

I dont know whats the hupla is all about its going to be at least a few years before they even get to the 2008 envelopes sent in. By then most will be rotted and wet from piss poor storg\age

Just wondering, are you being sarcastic, or are they storing the envelopes without scanning them?

Up until 1998(?) the form was called a "blue" card (because it was a card, blue in color). They would receive the card, "file" in a box and forget it. It was discovered that the cards were illegible from poor storage (water, vermin, etc) and they were all thrown out. I would hope by shredding or burning, although I wouldn't put it past them to have tossed them in the landfill.

The FA-10s are supposedly scanned and entered into a database. The nature of the input information makes for dirty data. What if both buyer and seller submit the form? What if the information (such as St. vs Street) is different? For that matter, OCR is far from perfect and most of these are handwritten. I doubt if half the forms are completely correct as filed.

I would be surprised if the procedure to reconcile scanning errors is any more comprehensive than tossing the offending form into the wastebasket.

 

[drgrant]

The PDF is NO LONGER provided by the state....They took it down off the website so it is no longer "state provided"

They provided it at one time, that's all that matters. It's almost exactly the same as the carbon form minus the stupid serial
number, which is meaningless.

and as far as the state not notifying everyone...what about in 1998 when all FID's expired? No one was notified of that either! So it would be OK for everyone with a FID to ignore that too? Actually I have still run into people as recent as last month that think their FID is still good!!

Bogus argument, because there is no crime involved here. (unless they reject your submission and you fail to re-file it).

Court battle over the FA 10....Not what I meant, proving your gun is no longer yours is what I meant, if in the rare situation something goes horribly wrong...You trust the justice system in this state enough to take your word as proof... then go for it..

No, I have a printed FA-10 form, signed by myself and the other party. That's good enough for me to prove that a transfer occurred.

And I agree it is a admin issue BUT for example, just a few months back the police showed up at my friends door asking if he owned a Remington 870...Apparently someone in Orange MA was pulled over drunk with a shotgun in his back seat that came back registered to my friend here in Peabody, The Police showed up wanting to know why his shotgun was in Orange with some drunk, He then produced the 870 to the officer and the copy of his form, apparently Dicks Sporting good made a mistake on the form and it came back in his name....Luckily he knew the officer that showed up at his home and has a bit of political influence in his town or it may have become ugly, even if it were ugly for a short spurt it would have been a real PITA...

None of this demonstrates why my method would not work in this case. None of it.

I am simply trying to say something like this could spiral out of control real quick, and suggesting to people to keep using them until they return them(which you are doing by stating you will keep using them) , In my opinion, is bad advise.

You still haven't provided any evidence of this occurring or even potentially occurring.

I'm done here, do what you want.

-Mike

 

[drgrant]

Just wondering, are you being sarcastic, or are they storing the envelopes without scanning them?

Mac is referencing the incident where, prior to computerization, CHSB stored all the records in some room in a building, and there was bird/rat/vermin poop all over the records, and they had to throw most of them away. That's why if you pay the fee and get the CHSB/CJIS "report" on "what guns you have" (I use the term loosely here, because it really is more of a report of guns ever associated with your LTC than anything else) if you have been a gun owner a long time in this state, a lot of guns will be missing from this report. They didn't computerize the records before a certain time period (maybe 98?) because a lot of records were simply destroyed/thrown away.

-Mike

 

[namedpipes]

Mac is referencing the incident where, prior to computerization, CHSB stored all the records in some room in a building, and there was bird/rat/vermin fshit all over the records, and they had to throw most of them away. That's why if you pay the fee and get the CHSB/CJIS "report" on "what guns you have" if you have been a gun owner a long time in this state, a lot of guns will be missing from this report. They didn't computerize the records before a certain time period (maybe 98?) because a lot of records were simply destroyed/thrown away.

-Mike

That's only part of the reason, IMO. There can't possibly be any integrity in their database. Scanning w/ OCR, when operated by people that don't particularly care about what they're doing, is not that reliable even IF the input data is all consistent and accurate.

 

[sschevy]

You still haven't provided any evidence of this occurring or even potentially occurring.

I'm done here, do what you want.

-Mike


And you still have not provided why it is right to do things as you say.....Just because you are the all knowing high and mighty does not mean you are correct either....

I have stated that I sent in a PDF after the notice without issue so far....I have stated that it is just my opinion that you should use the numbered form as they request...And also I have stated that this is potentialfor disaster.......and now you tell me to "do what I want" gee thanks for giving me the opportunity to do as I like with your blessing...it really means a lot to me!

If anyone cares to know what a LEO thinks about this situation I can ask a very good friend that works in the Boston Office of ATF...I can have his opinion in an hour ...let me know

 

[namedpipes]

@sschevy. You have my blessing as well to do what the heck you want.

 

[mike01824]

Just curious, but what does the ATF have to do with a state form?

 

[namedpipes]

Just curious, but what does the ATF have to do with a state form?

It's because they're the only ones professional enough to know about state forms...

 

[drgrant]

And you still have not provided why it is right to do things as you say.....

Look at the actual intent of the law (EG, S128A/B/etc) and it will become clear to you. I don't think you're capable of doing that though, as you're too hung up on the difference between two styles of paper (that contain exactly the same information, in exactly the same format! ) That is what this is about, isn't it?

If anyone cares to know what a LEO thinks about this situation I can ask a very good friend that works in the Boston Office of ATF...I can have his opinion in an hour ...let me know

Yeah, because what an ATF agent (Federal Law Enforcement) thinks has a lot of bearing on the application of an administrative function under state law. You might as well be asking him what the price of tea in china is. You might as well just save him some time and call CJIS yourself and ask Guida when exactly they intend to stop accepting PDF based FA-10s and sending out rejection letters, and what they intend to do about the lack of FA-10 carbon forms in MA police departments, because the reality is if CJIS wants us to use the carbon forms again, there aren't enough of them out there- and the second part of that reality, is that not everyone can use E-FA-10 system due to a variety of logistical issues. That would be a far more useful inquiry to make.

-Mike

 

[sschevy]

Ok I'm done now too...across the board...I wish you all well...

as I've said before in other post..... its not worth replying to any post on this site....I think I should take my own advise

As far as the fed thing...he has told me on many occasions that he is in the CJIS office in Chelsea on a regular basis...figured it would be a good person to ask the question for us...but...you all seem to know everything there is to know so why bother...

 

[drgrant]

As far as the fed thing...he has told me on many occasions that he is in the CJIS office in Chelsea on a regular basis...figured it would be a good person to ask the question for us...but...you all seem to know everything there is to know so why bother...

Yeah, but this FA-10 thing is such minutiae (eg nearly meaningless) to the type of LE functions he's probably involved in, that he'll probably have to call up Guida anyways, to find out what the actual answer is. That's the point I was trying to make. I'm not trying to be an ass here, I'm just trying to save your friend some time- you can do the same thing that I am nearly certain he's going to do...

Guida is either going to parrot whats on the memo they sent out, more than likely, or he'll actually give you a date when the forms will no longer be accepted. I am betting 60% chance that he will punt or evade the question in some way or another.

ETA: I would call Guida myself, but I can't. because I'm pretty sure I would be unable to maintain my composure while on the
phone with him, and that benefits no-one.

-Mike

 

[sschevy]

Yeah, but this FA-10 thing is such minutiae (eg nearly meaningless) to the type of LE functions he's probably involved in, that he'll probably have to call up Guida anyways, to find out what the actual answer is. That's the point I was trying to make. I'm not trying to be an ass here, I'm just trying to save your friend some time- you can do the same thing that I am nearly certain he's going to do...

Guida is either going to parrot whats on the memo they sent out, more than likely, or he'll actually give you a date when the forms will no longer be accepted. I am betting 60% chance that he will punt or evade the question in some way or another.

ETA: I would call Guida myself, but I can't. because I'm pretty sure I would be unable to maintain my composure while on the
phone with him, and that benefits no-one.

-Mike

Wow a civil meaningful response..thank Mike, I appreciate that (and I am not being sarcastic) ...I am going to call my friend anyway as I have not talked to him in a couple of weeks, He is a real good guy and questions have never been a bother to him

Have a good one

 

[mac1911]

OK so your telling me all the envelopes comeing into chelsea are opened that day and scanned instantly...im doubting that highly. I see boxes and boxes piled just waiting to be scanned? Has anyone ever really gotten a chance to really see this system in action ?I have my signed copies of all my FA10 I sent in 3 pdf copies in november, nothing yet.

 

[Len-2A Training]

sschevy, do as you please, but I noticed that you ignored my comments in #64. To me, those are much more serious issues than which forms to use . . . and I don't think anyone has any answer to this (especially the state).

 

[sschevy]

sschevy, do as you please, but I noticed that you ignored my comments in #64. To me, those are much more serious issues than which forms to use . . . and I don't think anyone has any answer to this (especially the state).

I did not ignore them I actually agree with you especially about the EFA10...no hard copy for yourself is a major problem as far as I am concerned....So in short because I am really bored with this thread...I did not ignore your comment I was just to busy trying in vein to defend my opinion....then I thought to myself why the hell should I defend my opinion? this is when I began to loose interest!

 

[milktree]

The FA-10s are supposedly scanned and entered into a database. The nature of the input information makes for dirty data. What if both buyer and seller submit the form? What if the information (such as St. vs Street) is different? For that matter, OCR is far from perfect and most of these are handwritten. I doubt if half the forms are completely correct as filed.

I would be surprised if the procedure to reconcile scanning errors is any more comprehensive than tossing the offending form into the wastebasket.

I print the blank PDF, and use carbon paper so all three copies match. I fill them out by hand because I can do that *anywhere*, and because I see no reason to make the OCR any easier than necessary.

 

[yanici]

I print the blank PDF, and use carbon paper so all three copies match. I fill them out by hand because I can do that *anywhere*, and because I see no reason to make the OCR any easier than necessary.

Who has carbon paper hanging around? I didn't know you could buy that anymore.

 

[milktree]

Who has carbon paper hanging around? I didn't know you could buy that anymore.

I got a lifetime supply at Staples. Really, like 100 sheets, and since you can use a single sheet a bunch of times, that's a lot of transfers.

You have to ask someone with white hair where it is though, anyone under 30 will get confused or direct you to carbonless forms for... something. Plain old carbon paper is in a completely different part of the store.

 

[MrScrewzloose]

I use the following site to process registrations & transfers...

Massachusetts Firearms Registration and Transfer System

And I've never had a problem. I haven't seen this link posted on here before, maybe it wasn't supposed to get out, either way, I hope it helps.

Sully

 

[namedpipes]

I use the following site to process registrations & transfers...

Massachusetts Firearms Registration and Transfer System

And I've never had a problem. I haven't seen this link posted on here before, maybe it wasn't supposed to get out, either way, I hope it helps.

Sully

I become, daily, more understanding of the members that have been here longer than I have, of their short temper with people asking questions that are asked on a daily basis by people that won't read...

 

[Len-2A Training]

I use the following site to process registrations & transfers...

Massachusetts Firearms Registration and Transfer System

And I've never had a problem. I haven't seen this link posted on here before, maybe it wasn't supposed to get out, either way, I hope it helps.

Sully

"Your mission if you choose to accept it, is to review that linked page and report back here on what is wrong with it (according to MGLs, not some bureaucrat's "pronouncements" via undated/unsigned "memos"!"

 

[yanici]

I use the following site to process registrations & transfers...

Massachusetts Firearms Registration and Transfer System

And I've never had a problem. I haven't seen this link posted on here before, maybe it wasn't supposed to get out, either way, I hope it helps.

Sully

Thanks, Sully. Now back to the show.

 

[drgrant]

"Your mission if you choose to accept it, is to review that linked page and report back here on what is wrong with it (according to MGLs, not some bureaucrat's "pronouncements" via undated/unsigned "memos"!"

The first two options on the left are just chock full of fail.

-Mike

 

[Emoto]

The "Generate Firearms License Validation" page seemed interesting, so I clicked on the link. Some stuff was displayed, along with:

"This Connection is Untrusted





You have asked Firefox to connect
securely to 72.14.204.147, but we can't confirm that your connection is secure."



So, they want you to send your PIN across the internet via an unsecure connection.

 

[Independence Arms]

I just picked up 10, FA10's from a police dept. today!


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