Empty holster social experiment question

[Titan]

Mattitidue,

Thanks for stimulating a very interesting discussion.

Do I understand correctly that when you DO move to Massachusetts, you plan to risk refusal of your LTC or loss of it (if granted one) by directly and openly protesting our Draconian gun laws?

To do so without regard to how it would effect your own gun ownership and finances is very commendable.


Personally, I can't wait to get your help.

 

[Mattitude]

All, thank you for all of your responses and I really hope you don't stop. I will be heading up to MA & CT tomorrow for a week and will start my social experiment. The "outcomes" might be different regarding LE as I am NOT a MA resident (I don't have an LTC to get threatened to be pulled or used as leverage in a scare tactic) so if I am approached I will see how far I can "push things" in regards to gaining some knowledge on how LE think and/or how high & mighty they may try to act and push their weight around. I'm a disabled vet (17+ years active duty) so I'll have to see how much of an a-hole they can be.

 

[jdubois]

so if I am approached I will see how far I can "push things" in regards to gaining some knowledge on how LE think and/or how high & mighty they may try to act and push their weight around.

Good luck to you. My suspicion is that you won't even get approached or really much noticed.

 

[Edmond Dantes]

We need to pass 3 laws. 1. Every law passed needs to have the article of the state/fed Constitution quoted to justify law. 2. LEO's who deny an eligible applicant an LTC can be held liable if something happens to citizen and they couldn't defend themselves. 3. Private businesses who deny an employee from carrying can be held liable if something happens to employee and the company couldn't protect them.

I disagree with the last law you suggested. Private businesses have every right to regulate what they allow on their property. So long as they're not defrauding anyone of their money, stealing, invoking violence, or infringing in any other way upon someone's life, liberty or property the government ought never interfere. Obviously the opposite is true all too often but regardless lets think about what would happen if we did pass that law. First, lets get one thing straight. Companies or the government can't guarantee safety its impossible. If given enough time and resources the right person(s) could penetrate any safety system. For instance, the most guarded building in the world, The Pentagon, was attacked on September 11th now if your law was passed anyone who got a hang nail as a result of that attack or a family member of the deceased could sue the United States Government. Furthermore in court they would have to prove they provided reasonable security in order to protect its employees from that attack. So lets bring this back down to a more local level. Now you have companies spending outrageous amounts of money trying to provide some level, any level extra security to protect their employees so that if something does happen and they have to go to court they can say we took x, y, and z reasonable security measures to protect our employees. Now especially if its a public building where anyone can enter or exit at their will the required level of security to prevent such crimes is impossible to achieve.

Two final points, I know in your fictional law you give the company two choices allow the employees to carry or provide reasonable security which we have determined is impossible. In order to make it feasible for companies to allow their employees to carry another law also has to be passed stating that any employer who chooses the former, allowing the employees to carry, is also absolved of any and all legal ramifications resulting from an employee's proper and lawful use of a defensive tool against said firm's patronage. Without that stipulation companies would have lawsuits on their hands with the injured or deceased family member requesting disproportionate sums of money from the employer. Even with that stipulation you'll still have a large percentage of companies who keep the policy on the books simply because they don't want to receive negative press. I'm sure you can think of your own outrageous headline to insert here.

Now why should we force employers afraid of lawsuits to either pay for counterproductive security measures or risk being sued if an employee does protect themselves. Both avenues could very well bankrupt small companies and is non-commonsensical for even larger companies especially considering a corporations one and only responsibility, providing profits for shareholders.

Currently, we have two fantastic alternatives. First prospective job candidates can qualify a company during an interview or even after they're hired about their policies concerning defensive tools in the workplace and can choose to either not take the position or quit in hopes of finding an employer who respects its worker's rights. Secondly, employees can simply disobey the rules. I'd rather walk away with my life rather than my job. Jobs are replaceable a person not so much. Now the later option, especially if you're properly concealing as you ought to do in Massachusetts, offers the corporation legal means in which to prevent a lawsuit, after-all you violated company policy, you get to keep your life and in the meantime your job with virtually zero risk to yourself. I highly doubt your boss or coworker will ever come up to you and ask "Hey what is that in your pants." If they do you can snag em for sexual harassment and furthermore I doubt anyone would guess its a firearm.

 

[Edmond Dantes]

A driver's license is a privilge but gun ownership is a right.

Everyone is programmed or brain washed to believe that a driver's license is a privilege. Perhaps its because it is written in the driver's education book published by the state and no one has ever questioned it. But I'm not sure. Regardless, everyone should have the RIGHT to travel anywhere through any means they're capable of providing themselves. When you start to get into the restricting free movement game you eventually move to a "Your Papers Please" Nazi Germany type nation full of intrusive checkpoints run by state soldiers in violation of Posse Comitatus.

 

[n1zfg]

I'm am somewhat with Mattitude on this one.

If an organization decides to restrict options or otherwise impair my ability to defend myself, then they have created an environment that facilitates predation. (e.g. make it easier for predators to do their thing.) To me, it isn't much of a logical stretch to consider this the same as creating an "attractive nuisance", which they would be liable for.

Maybe we should just force businesses that do this to post signs declaring them a "gun free zone".

 

[Edmond Dantes]

I'm am somewhat with Mattitude on this one.

If an organization decides to restrict options or otherwise impair my ability to defend myself, then they have created an environment that facilitates predation. (e.g. make it easier for predators to do their thing.) To me, it isn't much of a logical stretch to consider this the same as creating an "attractive nuisance", which they would be liable for.

Maybe we should just force businesses that do this to post signs declaring them a "gun free zone".

I concur. However, I don't think the government should force businesses to make decisions that either cost them money, or go against the values of the firm. You have just as much freedom to choose where you work at and who you choose to business with as a business has in hiring you, choosing who they want to frequent their premises and what they allow on their property. Say the government comes and drops a stealth bomber in your front yard with an armed nuclear weapon in its cargo hold would you take objection? Is it your right to take objection? I'd think so.

 

[Mr. Rogers]

Foolish idea lol

 

[livefreeorhere]

Say the government comes and drops a stealth bomber in your front yard with an armed nuclear weapon in its cargo hold would you take objection? Is it your right to take objection? I'd think so.

Hey if they give me the "keys" I'll let 'em park it in the front yard. wait, i don't have a front yard...

 

[maee]

Some other things came up.. He didnt feel that citizens should have firearms and he would most likely call the police if he saw an OC.

Umm, because he is in the 33rd Fighting Brink's Security Gaurd Battalion, and thus, not a "citizen" like you and I?? Is this guy a freaking moron or what...

 

[Mattitude]

*update* I've been puttering around Sandisfield & surrounding and today a short trip to Torrington. I've been wearing my holster in the wide open (shirt tucked in, Bianchi SIG 225 belt slide holster) and have had some stares and a few double takes. The old ladies are pretty funny but the high school age kids give confused/puzzled/stupid looks. No LE encounters (yet) and no freak-outs. I was in Katie's in East Otis buying 3 cases of Stewarts Birch Beer and the guy asked me if I lost my gun. We had some small talk, but that was the only time anyone said anything about it. I'll be in Springfield on Monday afternoon/evening and possibly Southington CT in the late morning...we'll see what (not) happens. Thoughts?? Discuss??

 

[Zombieoutfitters]

Before LTC

Some other thoughts I have heard recently from friends and family and its interesting as I have heard the SAME comment 3 times from people.

"You have a gun, isn't that illegal..."

Even though my education is only recent on firearms in mass, I would like to believe that before my education period I strongly doubt I would "call the police" or "fear" an OC. I think if noticed I may have "walked on the other side of the street" .... IMO

I'm only 2 years with my LTC and I have to say before I had a gun I was very uneducated. Sure, BBguns and stuff as a kid but "real" guns were for cops, military and crooks. That is the public mindset. All it took to change it for me was a quick conversation with a gun enthusiast. It took all the novelty out of guns and all of a sudden there was a whole new world.

My point is, our society is sadly so taught that guns are for cops, criminals and military. When EVER do you hear about guns in any other context in mainstream society? Think about it.

Weirdly enough there are TONS AND TONS of gun TOYS for kids. But at some point we learn guns are for cops, criminals and military in the "real world".

I could almost say for certain that the average un-gun-educated citizen would take a NEGATIVE view of a gun. There is always that curiosity, same as when we were kids with gun toys...but in the "real world" people are afraid of guns because our society promotes them that way.

I remember and am ashamed of my old view of guns. But that view melted away after 5 minutes at a friends house in NH when he pulled out his AK and his wife pulled out her Kahr. My first question "how can YOU have those?". My second question "how can I get those?".

The best thing we can do for guns is to promote them and promote our sport in a positive and constructive way to build interest and educate the un-educated. Take a friend shooting...share the sport. Change minds and attitudes. The unknown is scary, and much less intimidating after you fire your first shots.

Just about everyone is one, 5-minute positive conversation away from a good gun education and experience. Do you know anyone you can share the sport with? Take them to the range!

 

[Zombieoutfitters]

Wait a tick???

Mike, excellent post and thank you for doing so. There were only a few participants in the Heller case yet they changed the laws of DC...I don't understand why MA gun owners are content with their situation and are afraid to do a damn thing about it. When your privliges go away who are you going to blame it on?

Correct me if I am wrong...but isn't there legislation currently in line for review by the house in MA to completely reform the licensing process? I do believe that is quite something - and will remove the police chief's discretion from the whole process.

Mattitude, I love the discussion this has generated (+1). Stoking the flames is always good when it comes to protecting our rights (+1 again)...just remember you are preaching to the keepers of the flame here in MA.

 

[lord1234]

matt,
excellent. I wish I had been there to LOL when the guy asked if you had lost your gun.

 

[Zombieoutfitters]

Could not agree more!

One of the biggest things we have going against us is we are being so defensive. Being offencive is the only way to win, or keep from slowly loosing.

What we need is a new advertising agent, lol. People are scared because they dont know, and unfortunatly it is very risky to become that gigantic figure that helps everyone learn. It takes money and influence to make change.

I wonder if instead of saying "no, what you say is a lie" to politicians and taking steps to weed out deception, we go strait to the public and make the state answer our questions and remarks. Blame them for the down turn of a lot of this stuff, and make them answer for why their plans have not worked, but made things worse.

I think now is a great time, look at the rest of the country, look at how much those people are buying guns, states are threatening to leave the union due to AWB talk. MA people have to see this a bit and it gives our case more strength as the way things are in other states is starting to become more publicly known to the MA populus.

my $0.02 now a penny for your thoughts, but I expect change

This is right on. Now (and for quite a while) is the time to challenge the logic of it all. The proof is in the numbers. How has gun control helped? What has it changed other than restricted our rights? What crime has it prevented? Gun control is nothing more than the CREATION of crime out of our rights.

Now is a perfect time for every gun owner to share their sport, educate the non-educated and push back on legislation.

The bill filed this year to revamp the laws of this state is a FANTASTIC step at reclaiming ground. It's about time we stop "defending" our rights and start legislating them back in our control.

We shouldn't have to defend against more gun-grabbing bills - we should have the anti's reeling on defense against pro-gun bills!!!

Hell, I'd up $100 to GOAL right now to support a massive pro-gun offensive in MA. And if we all did, and knew it was going to get done I bet y'all would too!

 

[Zombieoutfitters]

And there we go

We need to pass 3 laws.

1. Every law passed needs to have the article of the state/fed Constitution quoted to justify law.

2. LEO's who deny an eligible applicant an LTC can be held liable if something happens to citizen and they couldn't defend themselves.

3. Private businesses who deny an employee from carrying can be held liable if something happens to employee and the company couldn't protect them.

These are just 3 of dozens of great initiatives that could get the process going and put anti-gunners on their heels for a change!

This is the type of legislation we need to fight back with.

 

[KMM696]

*update* ... I'll be in Springfield on Monday afternoon/evening and possibly Southington CT in the late morning...we'll see what (not) happens. Thoughts?? Discuss??

My first thought was that if you were going to get into it with LEOs, it would be in Springfield, not Sandisfield or Otis.

Now that it's Tuesday, and I haven't seen any posts on how the experiment went, my second thought is 'are you still dealing with those LEOs in Springfield'?

I hope not, but it wouldn't surprise me.

 

[NinerMaine]

Why not? Social attitudes "up north" are much different than down here. Because you are so used to getting "beat up" with gun laws and pretty much being told that guns are bad and should be kept under wraps seems to slowly brainwash even the gun owners.

Please do not include New Hampshire, Vermont and Maine when you say "up north" within the context of the above statement.

 

[Cmaro21]

+1. Thanks for your service Mattitude. This is one of the most interesting threads that I've come across and great points are being shown from everyone involved.

I agree that our laws a BS but I also agree with my brothers in this state and I don't want to loose my right to self defense. Because of this I will continue to fight my silent battle. I will write letters to my elected officials, support the NRA, GOAL, NES and other lobbying groups, debate liberals and elitists (my mother is a bad, bad offender), and take my gun laws (rights) seriously.

That being said, once I hit the mega millions, I will take millions of that money and try and buy a change. I'll purchase billboard ads in support of 2A (right next to that damn anti-gun ad on the side of fenway), dump money into GOAL, hell, I might even buy my way into politics and try and change it from the inside. If that fails I'll just make the move to NH.

 

[Mattitude]

Well everyone, I arrived back to NC without any incident. My day in Springfield was totally uneventful. I did get plenty of stares and I have heard a few mumbled comments ("does he have a gun???" was most common) but surprisingly no LE or anyone freaking out. In fact I got more negative looks from my bumper sticker (Guns Saves Lives) and the fact that I park in the handicapped parking spaces the old people give me the evil eye when I get in/out of my truck (I'm only 37 but I'm a disabled veteran with a handicapped license plate, NOT a temporary hanging permit thing) and for some reason they most likely think there isn't a damn thing wrong with me. I'm going to try to make another trip up end of June/July time frame and then again in September and I will continue to wear an empty holster to see what, if any, reactions I get and if I can get any LE to approach and challange me. Should be interesting as I'm not afraid to stand up for myself. Again, I'm not a MA resident so I don't have any LTC's to threaten to pull. I had a great time, ate some lobster, drank some birch beer (I LOVE Stewart's Birch Beer) and had some good laughs. I would however like to continue this discussion as I do think that it has brought out a lot of good free thinking on not only this experiment but the attitudes of MA laws, firearm "privliges" and the general thinking towards firearms and how it is more "underground" than most like to believe it is...kinda like a denial thing. Thoughts???

 

[DavidC77]

How could you get in any trouble for not doing anything illegal???? .

Mattitude this is what you still are not understanding about MA, you can get in trouble for doing nothing illegal...

Lets take your empty holster and walk around with it, I go to the store and Granny sees it and calls the Police, am I in trouble, no...

Am I in trouble with my Police Chief, maybe... He/She can say that I caused a "Police Matter" and because of that He/She no longer thinks that I am fit to have a LTC... As said the Police come and take all my guns and anything like that, I now have to get a Lawyer to fight to get my LTC back and that will take a lot of money and many many years to do... With the thinking in MA I most likely will not win so now I've lost all my guns, most likely my house and property because I had to mortgage them to afford the Team Of Lawyers...

Same could be said for Open Carrying in MA, yes it's legal, but it would scare Granny and the same thing as above would happen, that's why most of us do not open carry...

We have to weigh the huge risk that will cost us everything in the long run, that's why we have to rely on the NRA, GOAL and Comm2A to fight for us with our help...

So your Social Experiment will cost us that live in MA a heck of a lot more than you that lives in NC...


.

 

[DavidC77]

(I'm only 37 but I'm a disabled veteran with a handicapped license plate, NOT a temporary hanging permit thing)

MA Registry mostly gives out the hanging permits now, very few (if any) plates nowadays...

You can get permanent hanging ones, my wife and I are both permanently disabled and the Registry assigns us Lifetime hanging permits, you have to send in a Doctor Form and than they issue it...

Yes more Hoops we have to jump through in the CommyWealth of MASS !!!

 

[Mattitude]

Wow, talk about a zombie resurrection...but I'm glad to see it as I'll be heading back up to Sandisfield during the first week of July and am planning on doing the same experiment to see, if any, attitudes and/or reactions have changed.

First off I'm not out to sabotage any MA resident's ability (or future ability) to keep their firearms "privilege." I do believe that change can happen through social action and IMO this can bring about the same awareness but without carrying an actual firearm. This time I'll more than likely be wearing a universal type nylon holster (Blackhawk Executive) instead of the molded holster that I used last time as it wasn't that comfortable and tended to hang up on stuff once in a while. If there's interest I'll be more than happy to update this thread same as last time and is of course open to constructive discussion.

As far as I know NC doesn't have permanent hanging handicap permits but I did get a 5 year hanger for my wife's vehicle, which is what we'll be driving to MA. It did require another visit to my doctor and another form filled out but it was more of an inconvenience than anything as trying to get a non-emergency appointment can take up to a month with my Tricare doctor. I do have full VA benefits but they are even worse as it can take up to 3 months to be seen by my VA provider. Now for me to get my permanent disabled veteran tag, NC mandates that the veteran be 100% disabled as determined by the VA, which I am. I don't know how NC handles tags and permits now than 7 or so years ago when I received my tag but it is interesting to hear how MA differs in that area as well.

 

[DarthRevan]

Wow, talk about a zombie resurrection...but I'm glad to see it as I'll be heading back up to Sandisfield during the first week of July and am planning on doing the same experiment to see, if any, attitudes and/or reactions have changed.

My thought exactly lol

At UMass Lowell we have run an empty holster event the last two years in the spring on campus.
Frankly, no one gives a F. They look but then they move on, no questions asked...

 

[DavidC77]

Wow, talk about a zombie resurrection....

Sorry about that, I was bouncing through the "Todays Posts" link and the "Search Link" and I must of come upon your Post thinking I was still in the Todays Posts, My Bad

 

[42!]

I think there are a lot of us that want to do something about the situation in MA.

And I wrote a long post on what I'm doing then deleted it because posting it too soon could harm the effort.

This shows how many probably think, we know the odds are stacked against us so we try to not get noticed. Sure, your example of it being a privilege not a right, or maybe a major challenge on suitability denial, would be a good idea for a legal challenge. But where is the money going to come from. GOAL is legislative so they're out, comm2a does get involved in the courts but they need to tread lightly least they end up over their head from a $$$ perspective or just a really bad ruling, remember the state has unlimited funds. And the NRA abandoned MA a long time ago.

Yup, most of us in MA have been beaten down.

It wasn't always this way. In the 80s and 90s I carried everywhere, most of the time a full-size 9mm OWB under my shirt, and nobody cared. Sure, it wasn't OC, but it was pretty obvious, and I spent a lot of time around a pretty lib crowd. They new, they didn't care.

 

[Mountain]

Holy necro-post!

Moving here from the South, my observation is that in Mass there is quite a difference between inside and outside the 495 beltway. Experiment in both zones and report back. I think we all know which one will be more entertaining.

 

[Kicker96FS]

One thing, if your CoP decides you are no longer "suitable", you can still walk around with an empty holster!

Maybe that would be a better "test", get someone that does not have a LTC and has no intrest to get one walk around with an empty holster. No harm, no fowl. (yeah, the bird kind)

 

[Mattitude]

Many of you more than likely don't know that I grew up in CT until I joined the Air Force and left at the end of 1990. Coming from a "broken home" I bounced between my parents so I experienced both rural (Chaplin) and suburban (Southington) living throughout the 1980's so my memories of the gun culture back then was MUCH more favorable then what it is now. I used to ride my bicycle to the state forest with a .22 slung across my back and no one thought twice about it...hell when I would visit my best friend I would take my BB rifle to school on the bus, store it in my locker and then take the bus to his house and again no one cared. Can't get away with that nowadays.

I was stationed overseas for over 9 years (Germany & Japan) and experienced their firearm ownership suppression first hand, and they have zero right to self-defense with a gun. I was planning on returning to CT after my military career would end, but with worsening restrictions starting in the 1990's (and also the higher cost of living) started to make me think twice about it. I ended up getting medically retired here in NC and enjoyed a much looser atmosphere in regards to firearm ownership and the gun culture in general.

Now why do I care so much about MA & CT when I don't live there anymore? Well, even though I have firearm "rights" now they are slowly turning into "privileges" so MA & CT could be the future of NC. It's a pretty bold statement, but as we know from history is that these changes happen slowly and in small increments as it makes it an easier pill to digest because it's argued as a "reasonable solution" or compromise to a bigger grab. An example is that NC is a "shall issue" state with CCW permits and just fairly recently with NFA Form 1 & 4 applications. The CCW process used to be a 2-3 page application, criminal background check, mental health background check, application fee and the fingerprint card & passport photo only for initial application and not needed for renewals. That was it, a few weeks later you would pick up the CCW permit from the sheriff's office and repeat the process for the 5 year renewal. Well now there is an interview process for not just the initial application but the renewals as well and even though we are still "shall issue" it's really a "may issue" state in disguise. Now with the NFA process it was up to the county sheriff if they wanted to bother with NFA items in their jurisdiction and a good many of them were "may issue" which included my county and the only work around was going the trust route. Last year NC passed a "shall issue" law for NFA paperwork and basically told sheriffs that THEY WILL sign paperwork as long as the applicant passes a FBI background check. Well, my sheriff said that he will ignore the law and NOT sign any NFA forms. So as you can see attitudes are turning unfavorable and even hostile here in NC.

States do have near unlimited funds (thanks to us taxpayers...) but grassroots efforts and social awareness can be extremely powerful as long as they aren't violent or appear extremist or militant. I don't have a MA LTC nor do I ever want or need to have one (my dad won't be leaving his cabin to me as he already stated that it will go to his girlfriend/wife who happens to be younger than me...but that's a completely different topic) so I really don't have anything to lose when it comes to wearing an empty holster anywhere in MA & CT. It's good to hear that others are doing something similar and in the many, many years since I started this thread no one has reported any seriously negative experiences. I would like to wear a holster in a well known anti-gun area on my next visit and see what happens next.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Same could be said for Open Carrying in MA, yes it's legal, but it would scare Granny and the same thing as above would happen, that's why most of us do not open carry...

Unless, of course, the courts followed the precedent in Simkin v. FRB (SJC)