electronic timers can make matches much more practical.

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walkit

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I've been into combat pistol since the 60s We designed the matches to be too long range, and too many targets (to reflect reality of civilian SD) for a reason. It was to provide enough time diffence that stopwatch timing could determine who placed 1'st from who was 10th. today's timers have removed that problem.

So why not some matches that DO reflect reality? Either ccw starts thuout, or mostly just "raise and fire" starts, as in home, vehicle or business defense. Few people in the US get to openly wear pistols, almost nobody doe in any other country in the world. So it's a pointless exercise. Nobody wears those Star War rigs, either, so why allow them, or make them an advantage in the matches? It's just a pointless expense. Ditto the compensators and optical sights. You wont have them when needed, so "ability" with them might as well be abiltiy with the rifle. If shtf, the rifle might mean something, the star wars pistol sure won't.

So let's have a max range of 10 yds. If you want real accuracy, require brain hits at 10 yds (4" circles). Nobody has ever proven that they could reliably shoot better than that, when under fire, so why waste time and $ practicing what's unrealisitic?

Let's have most of the strings of fire at less than 10 ft, none at more than 3 targets, and only 10% of strings of fire at more than 2 targets. No more than half of them at more than 1 target, to reflect reality. When you shoot 1-2 dead, the others either flee, or they kill you anyway. There's almost no "in between' in reality.So why practice doing what is pointless? Big waste of time and $.

Let's have moving targets, and (for proven good gun handlers) fire with movement. contrary to what most claim, this DOES work, at reaslistic ranges (ie, 10 ft and less) and it IS a necessary skill, too. Just standing there, exposed to enemy fire, shooting (and missing, in most cases, or getting hits that don't SUFFICE) is how you get shot. You can need to dodge blows from a pipe, knife, ball bat, chain, etc, you know. Better learn how to do so, while safely controling the gun and getting good hits, yes?

Such matches will attract new blood to our sport, you know! Many,many guys just snort at IPSC and IDPA, because they make so little more sense than bowling pin matches, Bullseye, Hunter Silohuette or PPC matches. They are not going to finish last because they use practical gear and tactics, because their egos won't permit that. They are also not going to drop the many thousands of $ and hours of practice needed to place will in a match that uses silly gear or tactics. Get rid of such baloney, and we'll get those guys competing/learning/teaching others.
 
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Actually, this has been tried - National Tactical Invitational, Tactical Shooting Assn, and probably a few others. A fundamental problem is that people who want to better their skill and train may be attracted to a few events, but the person who wants to compete on a regular basis is going to be interested in fair, objective rules - not the kind of subjective judgement a training exercise would require. Also, how many people do you think would come out every weekend to shoot 1 to 3 target stages?

Another problem is that time is your enemy in a competition, but can be your friend in real life. Get behind hard cover, out of sight of the adversary, and your concern is not going to be "getting the shot off as quickly as possible" in real life but "making the right survival decision". Try winning a match by remaining behind hard cover, covering the area of threat, and calling for help on your cell phone :).

If shtf, the rifle might mean something, the star wars pistol sure won't.
Click to expand...
A friend of mine who has one of the rare Papua New Guinea carry permits and a 38 super would not agree with your conclusion by nature of the fact that he is still alive.
 
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I like silly expensive guns and impractical unrealistic events. It makes for a more enjoyable day at the range.

B
 
walkit said:
Such matches will attract new blood to our sport, you know! Many,many guys just snort at IPSC and IDPA, because they make so little more sense than bowling pin matches, Bullseye, Hunter Silohuette or PPC matches. They are not going to finish last because they use practical gear and tactics, because their egos won't permit that. They are also not going to drop the many thousands of $ and hours of practice needed to place will in a match that uses silly gear or tactics. Get rid of such baloney, and we'll get those guys competing/learning/teaching others.
Click to expand...

Wow that sounds like fun!
FOR ME TO POOP ON

How many rounds we going to shoot at this silly match? strings of fire at no more than 3 targets, and only 10% more than 2 targets? what are we gonna use up? 14 bullets?
At least we can buy one box of ammo and have it last us all month. Should have great attendance too, figure an average of an hour drive time to this fictional range, and maybe, 9 seconds of shooting over 5 stages. How much you gonna charge for this? Maybe someone will show up if you pay them.

Raise and fire is just for whiny poor kids who won't spend a minimum of $15 on a cheesy uncle mike's nylon holster. Seriously, raise and fire? thats stupid. If I'm carrying concealed, i'm not walking around with gun in hand, how's that realistic?
Even if we go with this shopkeeper nonsense, we'd still have to go get it from somewhere, unless you know some shopkeeper that walks around holding his gun in one hand and trying to operate his cash register with the other. I would imagine he has some nervous customers.

People all crapping on USPSA and IDPA don't know what the hell they are talking about with their "new blood" nonsense. There are tons of new people in both these disciplines in the northeast, where we have crappy gun laws and few ranges as problems we need to overcome. The only people who are "snorting" at these competitions are posers who can't shoot. They want to spout off about how this that or the other thing isn't done right, or practical. Those who can, DO, those who can't, they sit online and post about what improvements they can make in some fantasy match they probably want someone else to set up and run for them.

FACT:
Those snorting WILL finish last, because the best of them SUCK when compared to the guy or girl who is out there doing it every week. It has nothing to do with their egos. They suck. Plain and simple. Talk all you want on the internet, in the local gunshop, or wasting time at the gun range having coffee talk in the mornings instead of pulling the trigger, you'd be the greatest there ever was, if only there was this perfect match someone would finally set up.


And if someone breaks into my house, I'm shooting them in the face, with as many rounds as it takes to get through that 4 inch window to the brain, with my star wars pistol, while I run at them, without using cover.
 
38supermatt said:
And if someone breaks into my house, I'm shooting them in the face, with as many rounds as it takes to get through that 4 inch window to the brain, with my star wars pistol, while I run at them, without using cover.
Click to expand...

And then make sure to execute a reload with retention. Flame on! [smile]

Seriously, +1 for your whole post. I find that maybe 75% of the time, when people say "X sucks" and "X is totally unrealistic" what they really mean is "I am bad at X". People, myself included, do not like to exist in a reality where they might be really bad at something important, so they rationalize it away.

That said, there is a "more realistic" competition that goes on at "Polite Society" conventions, where CCW trainers and such get together. It's not nearly as competitive, though, and they wouldn't call it a shooting sport. It has not caught on that much. Worth saying, though, that the people that win it are almost always IPSC Grandmasters or long-time IDPA Masters or both. They're not using a 5 round snubbie with a nylon holster.
 
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edmorseiii said:
AWESOME.
Click to expand...

It it ever comes to that, Supermatt has the skill llevel to pull it off - and I know that from observation, not from listening to him tell me how good he is.

And then make sure to execute a reload with retention. Flame on!
Click to expand...

Nah, Matt would just do one of those reloads where the new mag is in the gun before the old one hits the floor.
 
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Thanks Matt for saying what needed to be said.

To me there's a big difference between competition of any sort and tactical training. Trying to make competition more like tactical training just dilutes what competition is good at. Competition and training for it is the best way to build, ingrain, and test shooting skill. The more shooting involved, the better this is. Nothing makes the change from shooting competition to defensive tactics competition short of living breathing targets that shoot back. I've taken training classes where simunitions were used. Did I use any tactics from shooting competition, of course not. Did having gun-handling skills ingrained in my subconscious help a ton, you better believe it.

People bitch about this or that competition because they don't want to admit that they suck and do the work. It's the exact same thing as the people in the hand to hand realm who say that their secret ninja technique is too dangerous for competition but will prevail on the street. The excuse is even worse for shooting competition though. Finding out how much you suck at HTH in an MMA cage hurts a hell of a lot more than finding out you suck at an IPSC match, where all that hurts is your pride.
 
Just my opinion....

I shoot USPSA for fun, just like the majority of my fellow shooters. if I was shooting it to perfect my home defense skills or concealed carry i would go to two types of stages:

Stage description- 1AM. couch and big screen TV on the range. one target somewhere in the dark, possibly eating the leftovers in my kitchen, or they found the beer fridge in the basement.
Start position- Me in my underwear, hammered drunk playing XBOX. firearm probably unloaded where ever i put down my shooting bag when i got home.
On start signal run around looking for a gun with ammo somewhat near it. load it and stumble though the house shooting at whatever is holding a beer or piece of meatloaf from last night.
Comstock. penalty for extra shots fired into beer or meatloaf. cant be wasting now.

Or.....

Stage description-Walmart, 2:30PM
Start position- Me completely distracted by the attractive woman walking in front of me. On start signal break concentration from looking at female, engage targets in whatever fashion makes you look like a badass to the attractive woman, hopefully getting you a date. And if you looked cool enough she might pay for dinner.
Virginia count-Gotta make yourself look good now.

and in both stages i should add i'm being beaten with a bat, chain, or flava flav style clock necklace

If every person who shoots at an action shoot did it to prepare for some "real world" scenario, everybody would f***ing james bond.

That would be cool though! All the cowboy action guys walking around with chaps and spurs, I'd be f***ing impressed.
how about....They do it cuz they have fun!!!! holy shit thats f***ing unheard of!!!

I'm going to have to go buy some 5.11 pants, Wiley X sunglasses and a fishing vest and never take them off!!!!!! just in case shit hits the fan i'll be ready because i prepared at a match were i pulled the trigger six times!!!
everybody knows skill comes from as little shooting as possible at pieces of carboard that don't shoot back.
how about we throw safety to the wind and just shoot at each other. thats real word!!!!

Who would want to shoot one target per stage? what a waste of gas to drive to the match! I wanna show up and shoot at least 100 rounds, running around blasting away. Because its FUN. no other reason than that. If you want to prep for some kind of personal protection, you can do it by yourself. You must be used to playing with yourself so have a blast.
And if i really had to protect myself I'd prefer my "star wars" gun. it holds 20 rounds, has a big 'ol front sight and a 10 ounce trigger. You're probably one of those "Double action first shot is safer" dopes. HEY!!! if your guns pointed at a bad guy who gives a f*** about safety?!?!? ready to go ka-f***ing-blam is what i say!

I'm gonna start carrying a STI 2011 just to spite you. moron

In closing. I like to have fun. this was fun for me. Now i'm going to make a drink, play some XBOX and prepare for some Taken scenario where meatloaf eating robbers come to take my dog to europe. god bless drum mags. god bless America

Happy new year y'all see you at this years matches
 
Supermoto said:
The match should have you shoot at each other, that would be the most realistic. Anything else is a waste.
Click to expand...

You volunteering? My Glock, your M&P... 6 paces... lol

Wow this thread went nasty quick. I'll always feel safe with my 5.11s and fishing vest.
 
Any shooting is better than no shooting at all. It is possible to participate in an IPSC or IDPA match using what you consider to be "tactically appropriate" equipment and procedures. I have known police officers that shot IPSC matches using the tactics that they had been trained in. Really using cover when available and reloading only when safely behind cover cost them a lot of time so they never finished much better than the middle of the pack, despite their obvious skill. They didn't care; they shot the match as a form of training and their score wasn't all that important to them. What you get out of an IPSC match depends on how you approach it. Competing is far more rewarding than complaining.
 
38supermatt said:
People all crapping on USPSA and IDPA don't know what the hell they are talking... The only people who are "snorting" at these competitions are posers who can't shoot. They want to spout off about how this that or the other thing isn't done right, or practical. Those who can, DO, those who can't, they sit online and post about what improvements they can make in some fantasy match they probably want someone else to set up and run for them.
Click to expand...

This may be one of my all time favorite quotes of all time on here.
 
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Even I'll line up with the Bacon boys on this one

walkit said:
I've been into combat pistol since the 60s We designed the matches to be too long range, and too many targets (to reflect reality of civilian SD) for a reason. It was to provide enough time diffence that stopwatch timing could determine who placed 1'st from who was 10th. today's timers have removed that problem.

So why not some matches that DO reflect reality? Either ccw starts thuout, or mostly just "raise and fire" starts, as in home, vehicle or business defense. Few people in the US get to openly wear pistols, almost nobody doe in any other country in the world. So it's a pointless exercise. Nobody wears those Star War rigs, either, so why allow them, or make them an advantage in the matches? It's just a pointless expense. Ditto the compensators and optical sights. You wont have them when needed, so "ability" with them might as well be abiltiy with the rifle. If shtf, the rifle might mean something, the star wars pistol sure won't.

So let's have a max range of 10 yds. If you want real accuracy, require brain hits at 10 yds (4" circles). Nobody has ever proven that they could reliably shoot better than that, when under fire, so why waste time and $ practicing what's unrealisitic?

Let's have most of the strings of fire at less than 10 ft, none at more than 3 targets, and only 10% of strings of fire at more than 2 targets. No more than half of them at more than 1 target, to reflect reality. When you shoot 1-2 dead, the others either flee, or they kill you anyway. There's almost no "in between' in reality.So why practice doing what is pointless? Big waste of time and $.

Let's have moving targets, and (for proven good gun handlers) fire with movement. contrary to what most claim, this DOES work, at reaslistic ranges (ie, 10 ft and less) and it IS a necessary skill, too. Just standing there, exposed to enemy fire, shooting (and missing, in most cases, or getting hits that don't SUFFICE) is how you get shot. You can need to dodge blows from a pipe, knife, ball bat, chain, etc, you know. Better learn how to do so, while safely controling the gun and getting good hits, yes?

Such matches will attract new blood to our sport, you know! Many,many guys just snort at IPSC and IDPA, because they make so little more sense than bowling pin matches, Bullseye, Hunter Silohuette or PPC matches. They are not going to finish last because they use practical gear and tactics, because their egos won't permit that. They are also not going to drop the many thousands of $ and hours of practice needed to place will in a match that uses silly gear or tactics. Get rid of such baloney, and we'll get those guys competing/learning/teaching others.
Click to expand...

Come on over, (COME HEAVY), break a window or something & come on in!

Please [STRIKE]run[/STRIKE] wheel youself as fast as you can (I don't care which way, just be a moving target!)
AND please push the stop watch button on the way in......
I almost never practice! I promise not to fire before you are within 10 feet!

PS. I am building a ramp for your wheel chair since I noticed you've been in "combat pistol since the 60's" currently, my house is not ADA compliant..............
 
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Oh, man. As posted in another thread, this poster appears to be GunKid, or a reasonably good copy. That's awesome. It's the closest thing to a celebrity troll! I feel pretty honored that I've now posted in threads with the most famous of gun-board trolls.
 
TheRoland said:
Oh, man. As posted in another thread, this poster appears to be GunKid, or a reasonably good copy. That's awesome. It's the closest thing to a celebrity troll! I feel pretty honored that I've now posted in threads with the most famous of gun-board trolls.
Click to expand...

Check "Doby" on GlockTalk and "Gunzee" on THR
 

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