DUI = Loss of LTC ?

[glockstar]

I have always been under the impression that if you are found guilty of DUI your LTC will be revoked. A friend of mine from work was recently charged and pleaded guilty to DUI. When I asked him how it affected his lic. He told me it didn't, that there was never any mention of it. He still has a few yrs before it expires and has to be renewed so is that when they revoke it? Does anyone have any experience with this?

 

[william_munny]

I'm not sure if it effects the LTC directly, but he would be a federally prohibited person now, which makes him unable to purchase or possess firearms.

 

[Boris]

I got no direct experience, it's odd that he plead guilty though, I hope he had an attorney. Laws are one thing and his chief of police is another.

 

[drgrant]

Pleading guilty is not the same as actually getting convicted. Maybe they gave him a CWOF or something. An actual post 94 DUI conviction in MA is bad news.

-Mike

 

[M1911]

I have always been under the impression that if you are found guilty of DUI your LTC will be revoked. A friend of mine from work was recently charged and pleaded guilty to DUI. When I asked him how it affected his lic. He told me it didn't, that there was never any mention of it. He still has a few yrs before it expires and has to be renewed so is that when they revoke it? Does anyone have any experience with this?

1) Are you sure that he pleaded guilty? First time DUIs are often given the option of taking a CWF, which is not a guilty plea and doesn't require that the PD revoke your LTC (though they may).

2) Are you positive the charge was DUI?

3) Being found guilty on a DUI in MA means more than just losing your LTC -- you become a federally prohibited person.

4) No, the don't wait to revoke your LTC when you reapply. They typically show up on your doorstep and take your LTC, guns, and ammo.

 

[Admin]

I'm not sure if it effects the LTC directly, but he would be a federally prohibited person now, which makes him unable to purchase or possess firearms.

I thought a first offense DUI was a misdemeanor.

 

[M1911]

I thought a first offense DUI was a misdemeanor.

In MA, it is a misdemeanor punishable by up to 2.5 years in jail. The federal "felon in possession" law defines misdemeanors punishable by more than 2 years in jail to be felonies.

 

[Len-2A Training]

I have always been under the impression that if you are found guilty of DUI your LTC will be revoked. A friend of mine from work was recently charged and pleaded guilty to DUI. When I asked him how it affected his lic. He told me it didn't, that there was never any mention of it. He still has a few yrs before it expires and has to be renewed so is that when they revoke it? Does anyone have any experience with this?

If this was in MA (other states vary), he is now a Federally Prohibited Person and if they wanted to push it, the Feds could arrest and convict him. If the system worked as it is supposed to work, within a few days, his PD should get a "subsequent activity" report stating that he is revoked and to confiscate the guns/ammo/LTC. If a PD doesn't review these reports, he could skate for a while . . . but his illegal status started the minute he pleaded guilty to OUI in MA!

He'd be smart to sell off all his stuff immediately before he gets the "revoked" letter and visit to confiscate everything. At least he'll get some money out of it that way. If the PD ships to a bonded warehouse (I know the law but some PDs dump the stuff immediately), he'll lose everything or pay thru the nose to get it out of hock.

 

[M1911]

He'd be smart to sell off all his stuff immediately before he gets the "revoked" letter and visit to confiscate everything. At least he'll get some money out of it that way. If the PD ships ot a bonded warehouse (I know the law but some PDs dump the stuff immediately), he'll lose everything or pay thru the nose to get it out of hock.

Yup.

 

[Admin]

In MA, it is a misdemeanor punishable by up to 2.5 years in jail. The federal "felon in possession" law defines misdemeanors punishable by more than 2 years in jail to be felonies.

Ahhhh....

 

[Admin]

Yup.

+2

 

[william_munny]

I thought a first offense DUI was a misdemeanor.

It's a crime that carries a maximum sentence of 2+ years though, which pushes it into prohibited person territory (this is a state law that ends up screwing you on the federal level). drgrant has a good point though, perhaps the guilty plea avoided a conviction and caught a CWOF instead.

ETA: M1911 beat me to it.

 

[drgrant]

It's a crime that carries a maximum sentence of 2+ years though, which pushes it into prohibited person territory (this is a state law that ends up screwing you on the federal level). drgrant has a good point though, perhaps the guilty plea avoided a conviction and caught a CWOF instead.

ETA: M1911 beat me to it.

Yeah, I hope for that guys' sake he's "not remembering things correctly. " If the person in question sucked for a guilty plea and he got convicted of DUI, he's basically screwed out of legally owning a gun for the rest of his life.

I find it strange that someone would, unless it's not his first offense or he had a crappy attorney.

-Mike

 

[glide]

I thought DUI convictions were unheard of in MA. The caveat being, you must refuse the breathalyzer and have a competent attorney.

 

[M1911]

I thought DUI convictions were unheard of in MA. The caveat being, you must refuse the breathalyzer and have a competent attorney.

Not if you plead guilty...

 

[Smash05]

Even a CWOF would disqualify him. CWOF is an admission of guilt, this is enough for the Feds. The 24D disposition requires an admission of sufficient facts. LenS, do you know if a Guilty Filed with no sentence avoids the 2.5 year issue with the feds?

 

[william_munny]

Even a CWOF would disqualify him. CWOF is an admission of guilt, this is enough for the Feds. The 24D disposition requires an admission of sufficient facts. LenS, do you know if a Guilty Filed with no sentence avoids the 2.5 year issue with the feds?

I'm pretty sure this is wrong.

 

[Smash05]

I'm pretty sure this is wrong.

Guilt is too strong a word, but CWOF is an admission of sufficient facts to warrant a guilty finding at trial. It is not a Plea of Guilty, but that Admission is used at the Federal level for all kinds of disqualifications - big issue right now is for immigration purposes.

 

[william_munny]

Guilt is too strong a word, but CWOF is an admission of sufficient facts to warrant a guilty finding at trial. It is not a Plea of Guilty, but that Admission is used at the Federal level for all kinds of disqualifications - big issue right now is for immigration purposes.

The reason I think it's wrong in this case is because I know people who have a CWOF on their record who were still able to get their LTC-A unrestricted and pass a 4473, both after the fact.

 

[GunGrey]

I know of a few people who were able to have their records sealed/what ever you call it when they expunge your record. One was a DUI and the other was due to driving

 

[davemata]

I thought a first offense DUI was a misdemeanor.

Far too lenient. Should be chemical castration.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Even a CWOF would disqualify him. CWOF is an admission of guilt, this is enough for the Feds. The 24D disposition requires an admission of sufficient facts. LenS, do you know if a Guilty Filed with no sentence avoids the 2.5 year issue with the feds?

I don't know how the Feds look at these things. But I do know that in spite of CWOF ASF, EOPS/GCAB has pronounced this as "treat it as NOT GUILTY". Some towns do differently and the law will support them under "suitability" for that decision.

I know of a few people who were able to have their records sealed/what ever you call it when they expunge your record. One was a DUI and the other was due to driving

MA never expunges your record, under NO circumstances. "Sealed" has a hole in it for LTC/FID issues . . . it gets unsealed and looked at to determine DQ status by MGL.

 

[Chris]

CWOF is NOT a conviction.

A guy I have known since High School once bought a bicycle off a neighbor kid. Turns out the bike was stolen. Being 18 at the time, he was charged with receiving stolen property over $250 which is one of those misdemeanor charges that carry a potential jail term of 2.5 years.

He was initially denied a license, but a review of the case turned up a CWOF and since he'd been clean since (more than 15 years later) he got his license.

 

[The Patient Man]

Pleading guilty to 1st offense OUI is not very common because most DAs will agree to a CWOF even if they have a very strong case. And if the DA doesnt agree to it in most cases the Judge will dispose of it as a CWOF. I've seen defendants lose a 1st offense trial and still avoid a conviction.

 

[excoastie]

This – and other reasons one might lose their right to carry - is a good reason to have one’s spouse obtain their LTC also. That way all one should have to do is sign over all firearms to their loved one rather than to a friend or other relative. As G. Gordon Liddy said, “I own no firearms but Mrs. Liddy owns a whole bunch of them.”

 

[rudiewhitebwoy]

Thank God I got my 1st DWI in 87 & a CWOF in 88. I think if I had pled guilty to the second I would've been SOL for an LTC in MA. I'm glad it happened to me because 4/25/88 was my last drink, the world is a safer place. I'm glad I decided to fight the second one.

I feel bad for those with post 94 DWI's that aren't fall down drunks like I was, there screwed LTC wise, although I read somewhere that if a certain amount of time passes and you get a good lawyer and a medical profesional to sign a document saying you're cured you might be able to get an LTC.

My little brother got busted with a bag of weed in 1990 and he had his FID card. He gave his guns to a friend in NH thinking that was the end for him. Now he want's to get an LTC but I don't think that's possible in MA. He thinks his FID card is good for life. I told him to go down to the PD and apply for a new FID card for starters.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

The reason I think it's wrong in this case is because I know people who have a CWOF on their record who were still able to get their LTC-A unrestricted and pass a 4473, both after the fact.

CWOF is not a conviction for the purposes of firearms licensing but, in the case of DUI, is structured to carry penalties that can leave the defendant who is not paying close attention thinking they were convicted since penalties (court fees, alcohol programs, insurance increases, etc, etc.) are at a level that renders such a CWOF as basically a "conviction without the full stigma of a record". A DUI CWOF is treated as if it were a guilty plea for the purposes of registry action; insurance surcharges; and will even be treated as a "prior offense" if the defendant is charged with another DUI at a future point in time.

I feel bad for those with post 94 DWI's that aren't fall down drunks like I was, there screwed LTC wise, although I read somewhere that if a certain amount of time passes and you get a good lawyer and a medical profesional to sign a document saying you're cured you might be able to get an LTC.

If you are treated for "habitual drunkenness", yes. If you have a post 1994 MA DUI conviction then you are federal disqualified for life unless you get a governor's pardon with specific restoration of gun rights.

Furthermore, the BATFE does NOT recognize a FLRB (MA Firearms Licensing Review Board) restoration of rights, and will NOT remove a disqualifying conviction from the NICS record check database, or overturn a NICS denial, even if you prove the offense that DQed you is one for which the FLRB has issued a state level rights restoration.

Oh, and on the pardon - the form asks if you are requesting restoration of firearms rights. You will not trick the system by trying to convince them you just want your good name back and hoping that firearms rights come with the package. They will not be restored unless the pardon board/governor explicitly chooses to grant said relief from disability to the applicant.

And while we're on the topic, be sure to report all hotel fires and make sure any bank you are working at is solvent as "failure to report a hotel fire" and "receipt for deposit by insolvent banking institution" are both MA disqualifiers.

 

[The Patient Man]

Wow. I am printing Boudrie's post and keeping it for future reference. Thanks!

 

[OfficerObie59]

Wow. I am printing Boudrie's post and keeping it for future reference. Thanks!

Yeah, I kept reading the thread and kept seeing half-correct or incomplete answers. His was true, accuate, and complete.

In the interest of thoroughness (just in case anyone was wondering), in 1994 the legislature upped the penalty for OUI to two and a half years, in effect making it a disqualifier b/c it then became a misdemeanor with a possible penalty over 2 years, a statutory disqaulifier.

Ditto on most 1st offenses being CWOFed with a 24D program. BTW, just in case anyone was interested, if you choose to pay an attorney to fight your OUI, your chances of winning are likely over 70%, and even higher if you don't blow and don't take field sobriety.

I say "likely" because, writing a research paper last year, I quickly discovered finding conviction rates for OUI from any state agency is like trying to get the federal government to release documents related to Area 51. I was eventulally able to use OUI arrests vs. total convictions, and the figures I was hitting were convicton rates in the low 30% over a fiver year period from 2005-2010. Thus, becuase I only used arrests as the denominator, the conviction rate must be less because a small portion of people charged with OUI are summoned, but were not figured in to the equation.

 

[bostonasphalt2]

CWOF is not a conviction for the purposes of firearms licensing but, in the case of DUI, is structured to carry penalties that can leave the defendant who is not paying close attention thinking they were convicted since penalties (court fees, alcohol programs, insurance increases, etc, etc.) are at a level that renders such a CWOF as basically a "conviction without the full stigma of a record". A DUI CWOF is treated as if it were a guilty plea for the purposes of registry action; insurance surcharges; and will even be treated as a "prior offense" if the defendant is charged with another DUI at a future point in time.


If you are treated for "habitual drunkenness", yes. If you have a post 1994 MA DUI conviction then you are federal disqualified for life unless you get a governor's pardon with specific restoration of gun rights.

Furthermore, the BATFE does NOT recognize a FLRB (MA Firearms Licensing Review Board) restoration of rights, and will NOT remove a disqualifying conviction from the NICS record check database, or overturn a NICS denial, even if you prove the offense that DQed you is one for which the FLRB has issued a state level rights restoration.

Oh, and on the pardon - the form asks if you are requesting restoration of firearms rights. You will not trick the system by trying to convince them you just want your good name back and hoping that firearms rights come with the package. They will not be restored unless the pardon board/governor explicitly chooses to grant said relief from disability to the applicant.

And while we're on the topic, be sure to report all hotel fires and make sure any bank you are working at is solvent as "failure to report a hotel fire" and "receipt for deposit by insolvent banking institution" are both MA disqualifiers.

When did the FLRB route become ineffective?