Does my buddy stand a chance in getting his permit?

[planb1215]

So, I went to VT last weekend with a good friend of mine to visit one of our friends. While we were there our buddy who lived in VT showed us his new Glock and told us how great it was that all he needs to do is show his drivers license. On the way home my friend was asking me about how i went about to get my firearms permit here in Mass, because he's been interested in getting his. I was giving him the details and i asked him if he's ever been arressted. He said he did for criminal mischief and vandalism in Maine 5 years ago. The vandalism charge was dropped, but he pled guilty and paid a fine for the criminal mischief charge. It was considered a misdemenor. Now what are his changes of getting a fire arms permit in the state of Massachusetts. I'm probably thinking that he won't be able to get one, but things always seem to surprise me.

 

[JRyan]

So, I went to VT last weekend with a good friend of mine to visit one of our friends. While we were there our buddy who lived in VT showed us his new Glock and told us how great it was that all he needs to do is show his drivers license. On the way home my friend was asking me about how i went about to get my firearms permit here in Mass, because he's been interested in getting his. I was giving him the details and i asked him if he's ever been arressted. He said he did for criminal mischief and vandalism in Maine 5 years ago. The vandalism charge was dropped, but he pled guilty and paid a fine for the criminal mischief charge. It was considered a misdemenor. Now what are his changes of getting a fire arms permit in the state of Massachusetts. I'm probably thinking that he won't be able to get one, but things always seem to surprise me.

From the BFS course I just took, I think his chances are very poor. My understanding was that any charges are lifetime disqualifiers?

Maybe someone with more practucal experience can clear that up though.

 

[KMaurer]

Charges without either a guilty plea or a conviction aren't anything, except as grist for licensing authoritoes looking for a way to declare someone unsuitable. Unless the maximum possible penalty for the mischief charge was over 2 years, it isn't a disqualifier. A guilty plea to a nonviolent misdemeanor would be a problem in some towns, but not in others. I don't haven't heard anything as to how the state has been treating them for non-resident licenses.

Ken

 

[Lynne]

What Ken said is correct. It also depends on what town or city your friend lives in as the Chiefs differ (as long as your friend isn't disqual'd because of the arrest) in their, um....philosophies??...on the issuing of licenses. Except for the FID card that is. As long as you pass the background check on that, they have to give it to you. Here's a listing of the disqualifers...

Misdemeanors: Conviction Disqualifiers for FID Cards and LTC's (License to carry)

Under Massachusetts law, misdemeanors punishable by imprisonment for more than two years include the following offenses:

Crimes against the Person

Assault (c. 265, §13A)
Assault & Battery (c. 265, §13A)
A&B on Public Employee (c.265, §131)
Permitting Injury to a Child (c. 265, §13S)
Gross Negligence by Common Carrier (c. 265, §30)
A&B/Property Damage to Intimidate (c. 265, §39)
Causing Injury in a Physical Exercise Program (c. 265, §40)
Resisting Arrest (c. 268, §32B)
Crimes Against Property

Failure to Report Hotel Fire (c. 266, §13A)
Larceny from Common Carrier/Business (c. 266, §30(1))
Larceny Under $250 from Elder/Disabled Person (c. 266, §30(5))
Shoplifting Over $100 (c.266, §30A)
Falsely Obtaining Commercial Computer Service (c. 266, §33A)
Receipt of Deposit by Insolvent Bank (c. 266, §54)
Receiving Stolen Property Under $250 (c. 266, §60)
False Statement to Motor Vehicle Insurer (c. 266, §111B)
Obstruction of Medical Facility - Sebseq. Offense (c. 266, §120E)
Wanton Destruction Property Over $250 (c. 266, §127)
Destruction Church/School Property (c. 266, §127A)
Destruction Jail Property (c. 266, §130)
Motor Vehicle Offenses

Operating After Suspension for OUI/MVH, etc. (c. 90, §23)
OUI (c. 90, §24(1)) (only applies to conviction after May 27, 1994)
Motor Vehicle Homicide while OUI or While OTE (c. 90, §24G(b))
OUI with Serious Bodily Injury (c. 90B, §24L(2))
OUI on a Vessel (c. 90B, §8(a))
OUI on a Vessel with Serious Bodily Injury (c. 90B, §8A(2))
Homicide by Vessel While OUI or While OTE (c. 90B, § 8B(2))

 

[Len-2A Training]

Ahem,

Lynne, better re-read the OP!

OP LIVES in VT! Looking to get MA NR LTC, thus can't get FID (no such thing for NRs).

Real question at hand is HOW the MSP/CHSB "interpret" suitability. Most of us here (myself included) have NO CLUE of the answer to this.

Best answers here might be from our "legal counsel".

So, Keith, Darius, Jesse, what say you all?

 

[dwarven1]

Ahem,

Lynne, better re-read the OP!

OP LIVES in VT! Looking to get MA NR LTC, thus can't get FID (no such thing for NRs).

Lo, how the mighty have fallen... I'm gonna enjoy this.

So, I went to VT last weekend with a good friend of mine to visit one of our friends. While we were there our buddy who lived in VT showed us his new Glock and told us how great it was that all he needs to do is show his drivers license. On the way home my friend was asking me about how i went about to get my firearms permit here in Mass, because he's been interested in getting his.

Sounds to me like it was his friend here in MA who he was asking for.

Busted.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Ross,

You may be right . . . in which case, apologies to Lynne!

I guess I need a play-book . . .

Who's on first?

 

[BillK]

I guess I need a play-book . . .

Who's on first?

this might expalin who is on first.... or maybe just make you think of the good ole' times Whos On First?

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Charges without either a guilty plea or a conviction aren't anything, except as grist for licensing authoritoes looking for a way to declare someone unsuitable.
Ken

Some police departments believe that a Continuance Without a Finding, if accompanied by an Admission to Sufficient Facts (which many courts require as a condition of accepting a CWOF deal) is the statuatory equivalent of a conviction for licensing purposes. In any case, a CWOF for which the continuance period has not expired is the equivalent of "pending charges", but that is not what is being discussed here - the Warren PD position is that CWOFs for offenses which are disqualifers are, by statute, lifetime disqualifiers themselves if accompanied by an ASF.

If you don't believe this, check out item #6 on the Warren, MA police department web page http://www.police.warren.ma.us/forms/firearms-faq.html,
which states:

IMPORTANT EDITOR’S NOTE: A continuance without a finding (CWOF), although not a conviction in Massachusetts, will disqualify an applicant for a LTC or FID (5 years for FID’s), where it is based on an admission to sufficient facts. An admission to sufficient facts will be deemed a plea of guilt pursuant to c278§18. However, it is possible to have a case continued without an admission – which will not amount to a guilty plea or an incriminating admission. Therefore, police must search the file to see what type of disposition was rendered.

I checked the statute that the Warren PD cites 278(18), and it states:

...If a defendant, notwithstanding the requirements set forth hereinbefore, attempts to enter a plea or statement consisting of an admission of facts sufficient for finding of guilt, or some similar statement, such admission shall be deemed a tender of a plea of guilty for purposes of the procedures set forth in this section....

I'm not a lawyer, but the "for the purposes of the procedures set forth in this section" would not appear to encompass firearms licensing since that is not covered in section 278.

Are there any lawyers on the who can advise:

#1: Is the Warren PD interpretation correct?

#2: If not, is there any case law to back up that conclusion?

#3: What would be someones chances of winning an issuance appeal on this, assuming the issuing authority was not concurrently making a not-suitable argument?

In any case, any lawer counselling sonmeone offered a CWOF should certainly be advising someone that some departments will indeed consider a CWOF whih has run its course to be a statuatory disqualifier. It's also something that I mention in any introduction course I run.

 

[Scrivener]

Here's the statute:

G.L.c. 278, § 18. Pleas of not guilty, guilty or nolo contendere; requests for specific disposition; pretrial motions.

Section 18. A defendant who is before the Boston municipal court or a district court or a district court sitting in a juvenile session or a juvenile court on a criminal offense within the court's final jurisdiction shall plead not guilty or guilty, or with the consent of the court, nolo contendere. Such plea of guilty shall be submitted by the defendant and acted upon by the court; provided, however, that a defendant with whom the commonwealth cannot reach agreement for a recommended disposition shall be allowed to tender a plea of guilty together with a request for a specific disposition. Such request may include any disposition or dispositional terms within the court's jurisdiction, including, unless otherwise prohibited by law, a dispositional request that a guilty finding not be entered, but rather the case be continued without a finding to a specific date thereupon to be dismissed, such continuance conditioned upon compliance with specific terms and conditions or that the defendant be placed on probation pursuant to the provisions of section eighty-seven of chapter two hundred and seventy-six. If such a plea, with an agreed upon recommendation or with a dispositional request by the defendant, is tendered, the court shall inform the defendant that it will not impose a disposition that exceeds the terms of the agreed upon recommendation or the dispositional request by the defendant, whichever is applicable, without giving the defendant the right to withdraw the plea.

If a defendant, notwithstanding the requirements set forth hereinbefore, attempts to enter a plea or statement consisting of an admission of facts sufficient for finding of guilt, or some similar statement, such admission shall be deemed a tender of a plea of guilty for purposes of the procedures set forth in this section.

Any pretrial motion filed in a criminal case pending in the Boston municipal court or district court or a district court sitting in a juvenile session or a juvenile court and decided before entry of defendant's decision on waiver of the right to jury trial shall not be refiled or reheard thereafter, except in the discretion of the court as substantial justice requires. Any such pretrial motion not filed or filed but not decided prior to entry of the defendant's decision on waiver of the right to jury trial may be filed thereafter but not later than twenty-one days after entry of said decision on waiver of the right to jury trial, except for good cause shown.

Methinks the Warren PD has overzealously applied a portion of the statute and ignored the express language - "conviction" - of the controlling licensing statute.

Note that the PD could deny an LTC on "suitability" grounds; there is NO basis for denying an FID.

Then again, why are we discussing hearsay squared for some alleged third party who isn't interested enough to do his own legwork?

 

[Lynne]

Ross,

You may be right . . . in which case, apologies to Lynne!

I guess I need a play-book . . .

Who's on first?

I'll be gracious.

BTW - thank you Ross. Was it as good for you as it was for me?

 

[Len-2A Training]

I'll be gracious.

BTW - thank you Ross. Was it as good for you as it was for me?

Hey there!!

I'll be the first to admit that I'm not perfect, and sometimes mis-read something.

That post was full of "buddy" here, "friend" there and he mixed them between the title and the text. Parsing that failed my brain-filter as to who was who from where!

My bad!

 

[dwarven1]

I'll be gracious.

BTW - thank you Ross. Was it as good for you as it was for me?

Oh, Lynne... it was WONDERFUL!

 

[Len-2A Training]

Oh, Lynne... it was WONDERFUL!

Just remember old sage, revenge is sweet!!

You too will mis-read something and make a mistake some day . . . and when you do, someone else may get sweet revenge and the last laugh!

 

[Rob Boudrie]

I realized that the Warren PD was unlikely to add notations like "IMPORTANT EDITOR'S NOTE" to their own pagel so I googled around a bit and found the identical text on the Brockton PD (http://www.brocktonpolice.com/crimeprevent/gunsafety.htm) web site, with a footnote "The above questions and answers were provided compliments of Commonwealth Police Services". (Ergophobia rears its head), http://www.commonwealthpolice.net/ with a bit more about the attorney mastermind behind this endeavor http://www.policelegal.com/viewtopic.php?t=13

 

[dwarven1]

Just remember old sage, revenge is sweet!!

Revenge is a dish best eaten cold.

You too will mis-read something and make a mistake some day.

Absolutely! And I freely acknowledge that you will be fully justified in twitting me about it!

Heck, Bro, you should have seen how many errors I just caught proofreading my Lodge notice before getting it duplicated. G-d only knows how many slipped through... but I'm sure that there will be some Past Master to point them all out!

 

[Len-2A Training]

Revenge is a dish best eaten cold.

Absolutely! And I freely acknowledge that you will be fully justified in twitting me about it!

Heck, Bro, you should have seen how many errors I just caught proofreading my Lodge notice before getting it duplicated. G-d only knows how many slipped through... but I'm sure that there will be some Past Master to point them all out!

I have a friend (and Brother) named Bill Y. that I'm sure will be happy when he reviews your work for any errors/omissions . . . and he HAS your number! Should I have him keep an eye out for "extra attention" to your handiwork?

 

[dwarven1]

I have a friend (and Brother) named Bill Y. that I'm sure will be happy when he reviews your work for any errors/omissions . . . and he HAS your number! Should I have him keep an eye out for "extra attention" to your handiwork?

Wouldn't be the first time I've gotten a call from the GM's office! There's a bit of a learning curve for Secretary, as I'm sure you know.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Bill Y. is a member of my Lodge and he's nailed our Secretary (who's been doing the job for >10 years now) a few times recently. Nothing like having him sit in Lodge and tell us what we can't do!

 

[Lynne]

Oh, Lynne... it was WONDERFUL!

 

[C-pher]

Who's on first?

Oh man, not this again.


Do they even look at other states.

I knew a guy that was arrested for, I believe, Reckless driving in another state. When he went to get his permit, He said something to the cheif about it. And he said that when they ran his MA info...I'm guessing Drivers License, they said that he was clean... No matter if that's a disqualifer or not, they said that he had a clean record. So the question would be if they even check out of state records. Now, I don't know if he put that he lived in other states on the app, as I never saw it. But, it's still something that I was wondering about.

Anyone know?

 

[Patriot]

Oh really!

Bill Y. is a member of my Lodge and he's nailed our Secretary (who's been doing the job for >10 years now) a few times recently.

Oh really! Interesting Lodge I might say. Do they take new members?

 

[Len-2A Training]

TBP,

Of course we take new members! Two new Master Masons this past Tuesday plus one who went thru the 1-day class last month.

We can always use more good men, whether going thru the degrees or associating.

Give me a shout via phone or Email if you want to follow up.

 

[dwarven1]

Oh really! Interesting Lodge I might say. Do they take new members?

EVERY Masonic Lodge takes new members! If you're closer to Grafton, check out Franklin Lodge. We just raised two candidates tonight... which is why I'm home (and still awake) so late.

One Brother is a shooter... I'm trying to get him to come to the IDPA shoot on Sunday. The other Brother is ex-Army but doesn't have his MA LTC. Yet. I'm working on that... we're going to take his sons shooting, too. heh, heh, heh... I love addicting new shooters.

 

[Lynne]

TBP, you need to forgive Ross and Len. Sometimes they can be so serious that it's embarassing. For Ross and Len - re-read Len's post that BP quoted and laughed at. I'll give you some time to back up and read it.

 

[dwarven1]

TBP, you need to forgive Ross and Len. Sometimes they can be so serious that it's embarassing. For Ross and Len - re-read Len's post that BP quoted and laughed at. I'll give you some time to back up and read it.

Oh. *blush*

Sorry, we were too close to the forest to see anything but them darn trees.

Bill Y is the Grand Master's secretary. It's his job to read ALL the Lodge monthly newsletters... and he will call the hapless secretary who makes a mistake and bust his chops about it. Misspelled names, wrong dates, etc... Bill is a stickler. Since Len's Secretary (who's a guy, BTW) got busted by Bill, and since I've gotten busted by Bill, too, well... Hey, we knew what we were talking about!

Oh... and we ARE accepting applications for membership, anyway!