Do any of you ever practice this way?

[Fooped]

On the heels of the "No ears" thread, I pose a question that has long been in the back of my mind:


Do any of you out there ever shoot your carry gun at an outdoor range without ears PURPOSELY?

The reason I ask is that if a self-defense situation ever came up, it almost certainly is going to be a "No ears" situation. I've personally shot my J-frame without ears on a couple of times, and it is freakin' LOUD. My concern is that if I'm not at least somewhat accustomed/prepared for the report of the gun in a combat situation, it could freak me out to the point where the 2nd shot is fired in an unsafe direction, possibly drop the gun due to being startled, etc.

Obviously, there's going to be all kinds of other stresses occurring in a situation like this, but mitigating as much of the known issues seems like good practice to me.


Any thoughts?

 

[tuna]

I would think that it would be along the lines of hunting, when you take the shot with full concentration on the bird (or deer, or whatever) that you don't really notice the sound until after. My ears ring after a single .22 at the range, but I don't notice it when I'm in the field.
Of course, that may be because I'm not in an area with a roof to echo the sound to me.
Hmmm, first I hope to never need my CCW. Second, if I need it, I hope to be in a big field during daylight.

 

[M1911]

Obviously, there's going to be all kinds of other stresses occurring in a situation like this, but mitigating as much of the known issues seems like good practice to me.

Huh? What did you say? Speak louder.

Exposing unprotected ears to gunshots damages your hearing. It does so each time and the damage is cumulative and irreversible. You are deliberately damaging your ears so that in the unlikely event of a gunfight you might be less effected by the noise. That's not a trade-off that I would make.

 

[GTOShootr]

I always wear plugs and muffs. I have enough trouble with the English language, forget about learning sign language. I don't think the noise would be a factor in such a situation anyways.

 

[Fooped]

Huh? What did you say? Speak louder.

Exposing unprotected ears to gunshots damages your hearing. It does so each time and the damage is cumulative and irreversible. You are deliberately damaging your ears so that in the unlikely event of a gunfight you might be less effected by the noise. That's not a trade-off that I would make.

I'm talking about having done this literally twice. Having been in the Hi-Fi and proaudio business, as well as being a drummer for the past 30 years, I know a thing or two about the human ear and the effect of "loud" noises on it.

Clearly I do not make this a habit, or even an occasional occurrence. However, when met with some ringing in my ears (or even a percentage of hearing damage) as opposed to not being able to effectively defend myself or loved ones, due to not ever having experienced the sound of a CCW going off unprotected, I'll take the ringing every single time.

This is similar to training for a fight (boxing, martial arts, etc) and never doing some "heavy sparring" ala taking off all the pads and striking at 70-80% of what the actual opponent will use against you. Without this "real life" component of training, when the first punch/kick/elbow etc lands in earnest, the fighter most likely will not know how to react and his or her game plan likely goes out the window.

I'm not under any circumstances saying that shooting your CCW "earless" is the magic lynchpin in effective self-defense, but it seems to be an integral part of understanding and preparing for (God forbid) the experience, should it ever become a neccessity.

 

[Twigg]

Not something I'd do every day.

I fired my 91/30 without ears ONCE and will not do that again. Heck even my little 22/45 is freaking loud. I have no desire at all to shoot my M-44 or the .500 without protection !

Some folks seem to think you're gonna do deaf after just one gunshot.
Hearing loss is gradual and cumulative.

(NOT meant as an attack or affront to anybody ! )

I think it's a good idea to fire off a round or two once in a great while so you don't forget just how loud it can be. Personally I have no desire to stand there and fire off even one mag full.

I do believe a handgun of an adequate self defense caliber can be a loud thing and I also believe it could startle you to the point where you'd be more than a tad rattled for a follow up shot.

Should one do this ? It's all up to the individual. Others have stated there will be other "stress factors" all of which I think would be much more serious than a little hearing loss.

 

[N.E. CHARTERS]

You wont hear a thing

The brain shuts off unnessasary functions like hearing under high stress situations. You dont noitice things like your taste buds not working (Think about that) or hearing not working due to all of your adrenaline being concentrated in your musells during times of extreame stress.

Other activities pruduce the same reaction such as your eyes will shut down during TV sporting events when your wife starts talking about shopping. You wont even know it happened.

Dont forgo hearing protection while shooting. Its a good idea to also wear eye protection. Many sports require P.P. E. (Thats a morden and lucky way of saying Safety Gear) think Football= Sholder Pads, Basketball=Sneakers, Hocky=Helmut, Golf=One Glove and womens tennis= Jock strap. All these are used to help protect the athelete from hurt.

My hearing is acutely diminished do to abuse by my Unckle Sam when I was younger. I can only remember what birds used to sound like but I do know they go quak when you blast them.

Were hearing protection even while hunting. In the duck blindregular ear plugs work well as it is a visual sport. In the woods for other game I use my hearing aids which have noise clippers to shut them down over 85 db. They also work well for listening to deer if I turn up the volume full.

If Im at the range I use foam ear plugs and micky mouse ears together as well as polycarbonate glasses.

 

[stoneypete]

I am living with the result of shooting as a youth without hearing protection. Those who know me know not to speak on my left side. I ALWAYS use protection now, even in practice.

 

[Mikey]

Every time I read an account of a SD shooting the person always seems to say they never heard the shots and like newengland said above I think we are wired to shut out the sound during the event. So it should not bother you or anyone during an encounter.

I always use ears unless I am just shooting my 10/22 outside (indoors ALWAYS with ears on).

 

[SKS Ray]

I too think in a self defense situation that sound wouldn't be an issue, mainly because of adrenaline.

 

[Fooped]

I too think in a self defense situation that sound wouldn't be an issue, mainly because of adrenaline.

Likely so, and having had no practical experience with this (and I hope I never will), I'm just throwing it out there...

 

[Adam_MA]

In my Suarez class, Jim told us about the human body's bio-mechanical ability to actually turn off your hearing, telling accounts of police officers who were working together during a gun fight, that one was literally 2 feet away screaming at the other one, and he couldn't recall hearing anything.

On that note, I have fired guns without ears on purpose. Why? Just wanted to check it out.

In a true defense situation, I don't think you will even hear the shots.

Maybe Jim will chime in with better facts?

 

[Patriot]

This is an interesting thread. I do some hunting with a 30-06 and I would
normally never shoot this without hearing protection. I have shot it without
'ears' when hunting and I never noticed the sound at all.

Yet, my brother-in-law touched of his .243 while standing about five feet
away from me one time as I was adjusting my 'ears' and I thought that he had
blown my ear drums out.

 

[JimConway]

What you hear in a shooting situation under stress

Since Adam wants to quote me, I will chime in. Someone said that the brain WILL shut off the sounds of gun fire. This is not entirely true. The brain MAY shut off the sounds of gun fire. Almost everyone reacts to stress differently and this may or may not help your hearing situation. What is happening is that the ears are still receiving the sound, but the brain is not processing the input from the ears.
There is another aspect that is less understood and this is that the ears, can independantly of the brain, shut off. In this situation the shot is not heard and the is no ringing in the ears afterwards. Current research seems to indicate that this "turning off the ears" happens very fast but again not everyone seems to experience it. There have been LEOs that have shot and have no hearing problems afterwards and others that do have problems

 

[N.E. CHARTERS]

on the flip side

You shoud allyays use eye protection.. I can recall seeing a shotgun being discharged and the smoke and shot leaving the barrel and NO SOUND whatsoever!

This was quite a sight, being that what I was watching was happening at 186,000 miles per second at an angle of zero and the fact that in about half that time I had jumping into a woodchuck hole it is not surprizing that the sound traveling at 769 mph from the blast did not reach me until what seemed like a very long time later.


Faster than a RADAR Mile!

 

[N.E. CHARTERS]

Think of your ears as miniture Crop Circles.

Sound is collected by the pinna (the visible part of the ear) and directed through the outer ear canal. The sound makes the eardrum vibrate, which in turn causes a series of three tiny bones (the hammer, the anvil, and the stirrup) in the middle ear to vibrate. The vibration is transferred to the snail-shaped cochlea in the inner ear; the cochlea is lined with sensitive hairs which trigger the generation of nerve signals that are sent to the brain.
On average, people can hear sounds in the frequencies between 20 to 20,000Hertz.



Load noise over 85deciblasts will damage the tiny hais. They will lay down like blades of weat in a hurricane and break. Once they break they will not regrow. The shock wave (Which we commonly know as Blast, Gunfire, Jet engine noise or obnoxisoly loud RAP music from cheap Jap cars) with damage the hearing in proportion to the intensity and duration of the noise.

Just out of curiousity. I am going to bring my db meter or noise-ometer if you will to the Range and try some different guns to find the level of sound. May be interesting.

 

[pdm]

Pity we can't have sound suppressors in MA.

 

[Jose]

I've done it only once (shoot my a handgun without hearing protection to see how loud it was. That was enough.

Oddly, the subsonic target ammo used in smallbore match shooting is so quiet that the crack of the bullet breaking paper and cardboard 100 yards away is louder than the muzzle report.

 

[Chris]

Keep in mind that regardless of the brain's failure to react to the sensory input, the physical damage to the ear when subjected to loud SPL is still going to occur.

Everyone reacts differently to stress. One of the reasons that upper level course try to induce stress and why competition is a good way to practice is that it allows a person to get used to dealing with that stress.

Things like time compression/expansion, tunnel vision, loss of hearing or location awareness, and other physical issues are all types of things that are reported under stressful situations, not just shootings.

The only way to know how you handle stress is to be under it.

One thing is for certain, when a stressful situation overloads the ability to reason, the body acts instinctively. That is, it will resort to doing exactly what you have trained to do. If you train by pulling punches, you will do so under stress. If there is no training, the body can even freeze and not do anything. I'm sure we've all been in this situation.

Officers after a shooting have been asked questions such as "How many shots did you fire?" and such. Almost inevitably the answers given are wrong. A person performing in extreme situations Will usually have very little memory or proper perception of details following the incident.

I've taken a course where one of the exercises was to be hit with a taser type device and then engage targets. Was one of my best targets of the week. But that came at the end of a very advanced course where the goal was to push yourself beyond your comfort zone. Quite frankly, you would have a very hard time getting that kind of environment at your average club. And I doubt that I'd be able to do half as well today if I were under the same situation. But even half as well would be way better than the 11% average hit rate that police shootings have.

There are things you should do to prepare for such times, but noise simply isn't one of the important ones. I've seen some really crazy things like "donating a pint of blood and then shoot", "Hit yourself with an Epi-Pen", "fasting", etc. While much of this is interesting to see the results, none of it really made much difference more than regular drills and the pressure of competition can do.

 

[Admin]

Keep in mind that regardless of the brain's failure to react to the sensory input, the physical damage to the ear when subjected to loud SPL is still going to occur.

+1

It's kind of like sparing for MMA with bare knuckles. Yeah it's realistic but a lot of damage will occur. I will stick the the muffs and deal with the damage if I ever have to engage a BG on the street with not muffs on my mellon.

 

[depicts]

As I sit here with my second set of hearing aids on, I have a different opinion than I had when I was young.

In firefights, rocket attacks, incoming and outgoing artillery in Vietnam, we had no hearing protection. Often cannon cockers would put a finger in one ear while they pulled the cord to fire the gun. Sometimes I recall yelling and hearing a response, and sometimes I don't remember hearing anything. The level of "stress" didn't seem to make a difference.

Recently someone fired an AR15 before I had my electronic muffs on. I couldn't believe how loud that .223 seemed. My sister was with me, and she said, it's no wonder ALL you Vietnam vets aren't deaf.

Coulda, shoulda, woulda! If I knew as a young hunter/shooter what I know now, I wouldn't go without electronic muffs. The ones brought to our attention here in the forum had a noise reduction value of 31, which is great.

Even better is the sound amplification you can get with electronic muffs when you are hunting stealthy varmints and such. You can hear so much more with them turned up, and protect your hearing at the same time. You also hear voices a lot further off, which is a safety factor.

Please believe me when I say it isn't worth it to "practice" shooting without ear protection. Even once can cause tinnitus, ringing in the ears. When your 40 and can't hear your children speak (high pitched voices evaporate) or women, or the high notes in music or Birds in the morning, you'll regret it, honest.

Bill

 

[drgrant]

The reason I ask is that if a self-defense situation ever came up, it almost certainly is going to be a "No ears" situation. I've personally shot my J-frame without ears on a couple of times, and it is freakin' LOUD. My concern is that if I'm not at least somewhat accustomed/prepared for the report of the gun in a combat situation, it could freak me out to the point where the 2nd shot is fired in an unsafe direction, possibly drop the gun due to being startled, etc.

IMO if you're focused in on the threat, you won't be worrying too much
about the explosion going off in front of you. I've been caught off
guard without hearing protection once or twice, and that was enough to
know what it really sounds like. I would never tell people to shed
hearing protection even for "testing". And even with good ear pro,
you still know what the gun -feels- like when it goes off, and IMO that
is the most important thing to be familiar with.

I'm not saying it might not have any effect at all... but I doubt you will
be dropping the gun out of your hand, or be distracted enough by the
gun going off where it would make a huge difference. There have been
cases of people who have never fired a gun before defending themselves
successfully with one, which makes me believe that mentally speaking, if
you have the fortitude to try to defend yourself, that it won't be a
problem.

I've read accounts of people involved in shootings, some of them for the
very first time... none of them said they had problems with the noise, at
least not during the "event". One account I read was from an off
duty LEO, who fired a 357 mag snubby inside a car during a carjacking
attempt. He survived the encounter but ended up with some permanent hearing damage in one ear.

All leads me to wonder though.... how different states of adrenaline
infusion would affect shooting response.... etc... eg, is it harder
for someone to shoot if their system is already "ramped up" as opposed to
someone who is defending from a spontaneous attack?

-Mike

 

[boomerang]

Having been in the Hi-Fi and proaudio business, as well as being a drummer for the past 30 years, I know a thing or two about the human ear and the effect of "loud" noises on it.

A Fooped,
What pro audio business work did you do?
My best friend owns PAD.

 

[drgrant]

Please believe me when I say it isn't worth it to "practice" shooting without ear protection. Even once can cause tinnitus, ringing in the ears. When your 40 and can't hear your children speak (high pitched voices evaporate) or women, or the high notes in music or Birds in the morning, you'll regret it, honest.

Bill

I agree with this... mainly because a good friend of mine suffers from tinnitus...
and it is bad enough that he needs to have noise to go to sleep, because if there
is too much quiet in the room the ringing will keep him awake all night. I think
he usually runs a fan or the TV, just so he doesn't have to listen to the damned ringing.

I think he has a "light" case too.... but that was enough to convince me
to wear more/better hearing protection.

-Mike

 

[M1911]

I too have tinnitus. Whether it is from listening to too much loud music as a kid or being on construction sites. For those of you who don't have it, I can tell you authoritatively that you don't want to get it.

As for the training impact of training without ears, let me say this. Most of us have once or twice heard a gun go off on the range before we got our ears on. It was loud. Very loud. Possibly painfully loud. But did any of us become disoriented or unable to concentrate as a result of it? No? So why would you become disoriented by it in a gunfight when you are focussed on a threat?

 

[Lugnut]

I always use muffs and always will. I was in an indoor range once and didn't put my muffs on. I almost pissed my pants it was so loud. It was a .45ACP. Only one other time with a 9mm. It is amazing how loud they are at an indoor range. Would you ever light an M80 and just stand there to see what it was like? I wouldn't!

EDIT: Heck I've been at a firing line next to someone with a P229 .357 Sig. (ejection side) and had to check to make sure my muffs were on.... it was painful WITH them on!

 

[dwarven1]

It makes me crazy to see bikers with no ear plugs, or landscaping guys using blowers or gas mowers with no hearing protection. Why? Because, like a lot of guys here, my hearing isn't the best, either. In my case, it's not from shooting - unless it was when I was a kid shooting single-shot .22s in camp (I have no idea if we used ear protection or not!) - it's from about 10 years of riding without plugs.

No one ever told me that the wind noise could damage my hearing...

 

[Jose]

I too have tinnitus. Whether it is from listening to too much loud music as a kid or being on construction sites. For those of you who don't have it, I can tell you authoritatively that you don't want to get it.

+2

It sucks. Bad.

 

[Len-2A Training]

One time shooting with a buddy, he let loose with 3 rounds (.38 snubby) before I got my muffs on. My ears were ringing for ~3 days. This was outdoors with only a roof over us (no walls).

My 3 years in a shipyard (no hearing protection), in and out of submarines with constant welding, chipping, grinding, etc. going on did me in.

I have tinnitus real bad (sounds like the ocean in both ears, all the time), oftentimes can't hear what people are saying clearly. You learn to smile a lot and nod, but seriously irritated with the inability to clearly hear what is being said. I do wear a hearing aid, but nothing makes the tinnitus go away.

Don't subject yourself to ear damage, do yourself a favor.

 

[boomerang]

Same as Fooped, I've been playing the drums for almost 40 years, ever since I was three.
I never used hearing protection.
When I last had my hearing tested, there was only a very slight loss.
The biggest problem I've had was getting Raynauds (loss of circulation in the fingers) after being on the road with a band all summer all over the country.
some people have a higher propensity to hearing damage than others.