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Dissapproved???Updated final time 8/25

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m91196

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Dissapproved???Updated January 2010

GOT my form 1 back as "illegal in State"
WTF, building a 10.5 inch bbl, 25.5 OAL AR on a new lower is illegal in MA?
Will they talk to me about it?
8/20/09
Talked to the examiner today. Very nice and was happy to tell me this; on or about about July 1 the ATF was notified by the AG in MA that SBR's and SBS's were not legal and they should approve no more. She may have been off by a few days but told me I just missed it. She said the next step would be the Section Chief but said he would not over rule the AG in MA. She also stated she found this very odd and so did her fellow examiners.

Wish I had the time and $$ to fight city hall but I dont

Updated info 8/21
Talked to the NRA legal people, they expressed interest. Also I see that a kind attorney has requested clarification as well.

8/24
Spoke to the supervisor @ ATF, following COC. Less than interested in my case, said the letter they are working off of does mention SBR's but no can see. He said this is a matter I need to take up with the AG. Talked to civil side of the AG's ofice and they have no info and claim no knowledge. Recommend I talk to the criminal side. The criminal side, duty officer, was a nice guy-said he was a gun guy and knew nothing about my plight.

8/25 The ATF Chief returned my call today. I plead my case, said he would call me back. Called within 10 minutes and said "our bad". Lesson learned call up the chain and dont take no for an answer. Thanks for the support and interest now I need to start all over........ I still blame Massachusetts.

1/21/2010-Got the Stamp I should have gotten in August. Still waiting on the refund for the first $200. The Branch Chief is working on it.
 
Last edited:
m91196 said:
GOT my form 1 back as "illegal in State"

WTF, building a 10.5 inch bbl, 25.5 OAL AR on a new lower is illegal in MA?

Will they talk to me about it?

I poured over all info I could find.

Did I miss something?

THoughts

[angry]
Click to expand...

You need a 16" barrel. 26" overall. There's your problem(s).
 
I think you have your answer now. Still, if you want the exact reason you should call, they should be more than willing to assist you. Thumbs up for ATF NFA customer service staff.
 
Your Form hit a bad examiner. Call the NFA Branch, and get it escalated to a supervisor. All the conjecture on length in this thread is WRONG. Your SBR can have both a short barrel and short OAR, that's why its a SBR! You don't have to have a pre-ban lower, either.

--EasyD

m91196 said:
GOT my form 1 back as "illegal in State"

WTF, building a 10.5 inch bbl, 25.5 OAL AR on a new lower is illegal in MA?

Will they talk to me about it?

I poured over all info I could find.

Did I miss something?

THoughts

[angry]
Click to expand...
 
EasyD said:
Your Form hit a bad examiner. Call the NFA Branch, and get it escalated to a supervisor. All the conjecture on length in this thread is WRONG. Your SBR can have both a short barrel and short OAR, that's why its a SBR! You don't have to have a pre-ban lower, either.

--EasyD
Click to expand...

+1 all bad info

call and correct the ATF.
 
(3) a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length

(4) a weapon made from a rifle if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length

(c) The term “rifle” means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed cartridge to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire a fixed cartridge.
Click to expand...

This is quoted from the post 'MA-centric NFA FAQ' here on NES (emphasis on 'or' added by me). Maybe that should be changed so there is no confusion.
 
Kaos116 said:
This is quoted from the post 'MA-centric NFA FAQ' here on NES (emphasis on 'or' added by me). Maybe that should be changed so there is no confusion.
Click to expand...

It shouldn't be changed, as its a direct quite from the law...

It's an XOR operation... If either length is below the limit, its a SBR, but it never says both can't be under the limit.

--EasyD
 
clinotus said:
The length is not the issue, but the lower. You need a preban lower.
Click to expand...

There is no legal requirement for an SBR to have a preban lower on it. The preban lower just makes it so that you can legally have evil features on it if you want.

There is much controversy, of course, about whether or not a postie SBR can have evil features on it or not, but that's not relevant WRT the actual NFA registration process.

I agree with EasyD- this guy got shafted by yet another dumbass examiner at NFA branch. Some of those examiners are dumber than a box of rocks- they don't even know or understand the laws. Either that, or the goal over there is to screw with applicants to try to discourage NFA registrations. Some of the crap I see, it almost seems like this is apparent. For example, the rejections of NFA branch types on licensed full blown FFL/SOTs in MA making suppressors. It clearly states in MGL that manufacturers are exempt, but yet guys were getting their apps rejected because "silencers are illegal in MA" [rolleyes]

-Mike
 
EasyD said:
Your Form hit a bad examiner. Call the NFA Branch, and get it escalated to a supervisor. All the conjecture on length in this thread is WRONG. Your SBR can have both a short barrel and short OAR, that's why its a SBR! You don't have to have a pre-ban lower, either.

--EasyD
Click to expand...

Jesus Christ!!! Seriously it took almost a page of BS, before the corect and easiest answer was given, WTF. (ie. just call NFA branch) I am not trying to be an "NFA snob" but how bout not answering an NFA question if you don't have a clue what you are talking about...

EasyD, glad you caught this one, this one was pretty scary...[crying]
 
securityboy said:
Jesus Christ!!! Seriously it took almost a page of BS, before the corect and easiest answer was given, WTF. (ie. just call NFA branch) I am not trying to be an "NFA snob" but how bout not answering an NFA question if you don't have a clue what you are talking about...

EasyD, glad you caught this one, this one was pretty scary...[crying]
Click to expand...

Talk about being a snob, people were trying to help the guy out, myself included. All in all the best advice given in the thread was a post by patio to just call. Everyone has different experiences and routes to take with this stuff as the gray areas are so large.

I see your contribution to the thread is still nothing more than a shit filled comment. You should follow your own advice.
 
Thanks for correcting things easyd. I thought most of this thread was BS, but I didn't want to comment on things I didn't know about like everyone else here.
 
drgrant said:
There is no legal requirement for an SBR to have a preban lower on it. The preban lower just makes it so that you can legally have evil features on it if you want.

There is much controversy, of course, about whether or not a postie SBR can have evil features on it or not, but that's not relevant WRT the actual NFA registration process.

I agree with EasyD- this guy got shafted by yet another dumbass examiner at NFA branch. Some of those examiners are dumber than a box of rocks- they don't even know or understand the laws. Either that, or the goal over there is to screw with applicants to try to discourage NFA registrations. Some of the crap I see, it almost seems like this is apparent. For example, the rejections of NFA branch types on licensed full blown FFL/SOTs in MA making suppressors. It clearly states in MGL that manufacturers are exempt, but yet guys were getting their apps rejected because "silencers are illegal in MA" [rolleyes]

-Mike
Click to expand...

Yes I was surprised at this as well and pm'd EasyD on it for clarification. While he does give good legal advice for the reading of the law there are still some in law enforcement who may disagree with his interpretation. MA law does leave a fair amount of wiggle room here and I guess it would depend on who was doing the 'interpretation'. But color me surprised on the non Preban issue thinking of the money I could have saved!
 
m91196 said:
Talked to the examiner today. Very nice and was happy to tell me this; on or about about July 1 the ATF was notified by the AG in MA that SBR's and SBS's were not legal and they should approve no more. She may have been off by a few days but told me I just missed it. She said the next step would be the Section Chief but said he would not over rule the AG in MA. She also stated she found this very odd and so did her fellow examiners.
Click to expand...

Just awesome. It will be so much safer out there now that people with legal ATF approved SBRs and Mass approved LTCs will no longer be running around shooting people. Thanks Martha, you are a real patriot.
 
That really ticks me off if the AG actually went and did that. What law that wasn't passed did she quote now? I was hoping at some point to get a SBR myself.
 
m91196 said:
Done, I e mailed Jon, but honestly we are fringe you know.
Click to expand...

Why Jon, he does training not the legal stuff. Send it off to Jim, he's the guy that tracks all the laws.

economist said:
Just awesome. It will be so much safer out there now that people with legal ATF approved SBRs and Mass approved LTCs will no longer be running around shooting people. Thanks Martha, you are a real patriot.
Click to expand...

Not just that, but if this is really true they probably created a lot of felons-in-waiting! [thinking]

I'm not into NFA stuff and thus don't know the rules/laws in this arena, so I have no opinion on who is right here.
 
m91196 said:
8/20/09
Talked to the examiner today. Very nice and was happy to tell me this; on or about about July 1 the ATF was notified by the AG in MA that SBR's and SBS's were not legal and they should approve no more. She may have been off by a few days but told me I just missed it. She said the next step would be the Section Chief but said he would not over rule the AG in MA. She also stated she found this very odd and so did her fellow examiners.

Wish I had the time and $$ to fight city hall but I dont

[angry]
Click to expand...


Wow that's stunning.......[sad] they don't even bother to pass the laws anymore, they just ban whatever they want.
 
I have been reading some of these laws tonight and not a single one bans an SBR. On the contrary, 141 ss 121 specifically defines an SBR as a firearm. WTF!!!! The only mention of length is to use the barrel length as a delineator between a firearm and a rifle. There is no restriction on said length however.
 
LenS said:
Why Jon, he does training not the legal stuff. Send it off to Jim, he's the guy that tracks all the laws.



The told me to email Jon, I will get on the phone with the NRA and fire off a letter to the AG to make me feel better. This is so typical
Click to expand...
 

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