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Dissapproved???Updated final time 8/25
- Thread starter m91196
- Start date
Sorry for the delay, it has been a crazy day. FYI... the ladies in the NFA Department are fantastic! Here is the body of the letter (It was OCRed, so sorry about any overlooked mistakes):
_______________________________________________________________
As you can see, there are several licenses that an individual may have to own firearms in Massachusetts (Class A, Class B, FID and Machinegun license). We need to ensure that the license we are presented with is applicable and we shouldn't be approving applications to individuals who don't have the proper one. Hopefully the attached document will more easily illustrate what is necessary. For example, we should not be approving machine gun transfers to Massachusetts residents who only have an FlD card. They need a Machine Gun License issued by the state.
If there is ever a question as to the validity of a Massachusetts issued license contact [CHSB EMPLOYEE NAME] at [1-800-92-JENNY].
"Assault Weapons" - Massachusetts has an assault weapons law that is based on the now expired Federal assault weapons law. My contact with Massachusetts authorities has verified that NFA firearms do not fall within the purview of the Massachusetts Assault Weapons law, therefore we don't need to worry about it when considering transfers. I included it in the document for reference purposes only.
"Sawed Off Shotguns" - Massachusetts has a law that strictly prohibits what they call "Sawed Off Shotguns." In order for an NFA SBS to be legal in Massachusetts, it must have been originally manufactured, (by a licensed manufacturer) that way. It is illegal to cut down a shotgun barrel no matter who you are in Massachusetts. It is also the State's position that it is illegal to make your own SBS or shotgun AOW, therefore we will not approve Form 1s to make a short barreled shotgun or a shotgun AOW by a non-licensee/non-SOT. Since our branch doesn't record how an SBS or a Shotgun AOW was originally made, we will approve Form 2s, 3s, and Form 5s for short barreled shotguns and Shotgun AOWs.
"Covert Firearms"- Massachusetts has a state law that bans what they call "Covert Firearms." These are concealable firearms that don't, "resemble a pistol, SBS or SBR" For us they are AOWs such as pen guns, lighter guns, cane guns ETC. We should not be approving those AOWs in the state of Massachusetts. I have been advised that other AOWs, such as vertical foregrip pistols, combination guns (marble game getter) are legal. If you have a question, bring it your supervisor for review.
_______________________________________________________________
The ATF blanked off the introduction/signature and failed to provide me with the mentioned enclosure, but on its face it looks to come from the CHSB. There is a little note on the bottom of the letter stating: Please contact AG's Office (MA). Either way... nothing about SBR's and it you really want your feet to tingle re-read the paragraph about the AWB![[wink]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/002.gif "Wink [wink]")
_______________________________________________________________
As you can see, there are several licenses that an individual may have to own firearms in Massachusetts (Class A, Class B, FID and Machinegun license). We need to ensure that the license we are presented with is applicable and we shouldn't be approving applications to individuals who don't have the proper one. Hopefully the attached document will more easily illustrate what is necessary. For example, we should not be approving machine gun transfers to Massachusetts residents who only have an FlD card. They need a Machine Gun License issued by the state.
If there is ever a question as to the validity of a Massachusetts issued license contact [CHSB EMPLOYEE NAME] at [1-800-92-JENNY].
"Assault Weapons" - Massachusetts has an assault weapons law that is based on the now expired Federal assault weapons law. My contact with Massachusetts authorities has verified that NFA firearms do not fall within the purview of the Massachusetts Assault Weapons law, therefore we don't need to worry about it when considering transfers. I included it in the document for reference purposes only.
"Sawed Off Shotguns" - Massachusetts has a law that strictly prohibits what they call "Sawed Off Shotguns." In order for an NFA SBS to be legal in Massachusetts, it must have been originally manufactured, (by a licensed manufacturer) that way. It is illegal to cut down a shotgun barrel no matter who you are in Massachusetts. It is also the State's position that it is illegal to make your own SBS or shotgun AOW, therefore we will not approve Form 1s to make a short barreled shotgun or a shotgun AOW by a non-licensee/non-SOT. Since our branch doesn't record how an SBS or a Shotgun AOW was originally made, we will approve Form 2s, 3s, and Form 5s for short barreled shotguns and Shotgun AOWs.
"Covert Firearms"- Massachusetts has a state law that bans what they call "Covert Firearms." These are concealable firearms that don't, "resemble a pistol, SBS or SBR" For us they are AOWs such as pen guns, lighter guns, cane guns ETC. We should not be approving those AOWs in the state of Massachusetts. I have been advised that other AOWs, such as vertical foregrip pistols, combination guns (marble game getter) are legal. If you have a question, bring it your supervisor for review.
_______________________________________________________________
The ATF blanked off the introduction/signature and failed to provide me with the mentioned enclosure, but on its face it looks to come from the CHSB. There is a little note on the bottom of the letter stating: Please contact AG's Office (MA). Either way... nothing about SBR's and it you really want your feet to tingle re-read the paragraph about the AWB
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... nothing about SBR's and it you really want your feet to tingle re-read the paragraph about the AWB
WOW!
![[shocked]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/007.gif "Shocked [shocked]")
![[smile]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/001.gif "Smile [smile]")
Wow, that's awesome. Is there official documentation that we can rely on
A few days ago I tried explaining to a guy at the Munro muffler shop in Pittsfield how the Massachusetts AWB doesn't prevent one from obtaining a machine gun in Massachusetts. It was then that I realized how silly it all sounded.
No... Unlike the ATF... A letter to the CHSB and/or MA AG's office requesting clarification will go unanswered, so all we have is a snippet of communication from someone in MA with the authority to direct the ATF to withhold permits for unlicensed individuals and certain firearms.
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So by the looks of this, the OP gets his SBR and all those with them are in the clear. Sounds good. But man, this whole event has raised my hoarding cockles and got me itching for an SBR despite not caring much for them (in rifle calibers, my arm can be twisted on handgun caliber SBR ![[grin]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/041.gif "Grin [grin]")
). "Man, I got to get out of here".
). "Man, I got to get out of here". The ATF blanked off the introduction/signature and failed to provide me with the mentioned enclosure, but on its face it looks to come from the CHSB. There is a little note on the bottom of the letter stating: Please contact AG's Office (MA). Either way... nothing about SBR's and it you really want your feet to tingle re-read the paragraph about the AWB
The system won't let me give you more rep points, so just let me thank you again. Your efforts not only helped to inform all of us, but also cleared up an issue that almost surely would have otherwise devolved into supposition, tea leaf reading, political statements, personal insults, and, eventually, a locked thread (some of which could well have been my fault). Well done!
Yeah. I was sharpening the tines on my pitchfork, and practing my hangman's-noose knot tying technique. In a strange way, I feel a little let down.
Sorry... feel free to proceed with a full blown melt down
I'm currently brainstorming a way to get an enforceable clarification from MA, so we can all make new SBRs w/ the otherwise illegal AWB items.
Well since you live close by its adult beverage or ammo for you.
You pick 'em
Thanks for taking billable hours and a working on this.
Do you have any advice on the PC way to handle this now?
And yes the ladies at ATF were nice to me as well.
The OP should just go up one level to an admin and discuss that he has seen the letter in question and respectfully request reconsideration of that letter and his application. They are really reasonable and will work with you. If that doesn't work, call me and I'll get in touch with my contacts down there.
Sorry... feel free to proceed with a full blown melt down
I'm currently brainstorming a way to get an enforceable clarification from MA, so we can all make new SBRs w/ the otherwise illegal AWB items.
Lets not make this bigger than it is, this seems like a pretty simple situation of an examiner (and possibly supervisor) misunderstanding an internal NFA directive. No doubt NFA will promptly approve the OP's forms once resubmitted, unfortunately this really isn't too uncommon of a situation.
Be VERY CAREFUL when considering additional clarifications, writing letters etc especially if you are not an "involved party"...
Ask the (hundreds???) of owners of Akins Accelerator Stocks what happens when someone "wants clarification".
I agree with you in general, but what he's looking for clarification on is SBRs not being subject to the AWB. Most people have probably not assumed this, so a ruling that they are doesn't cost us anything.
If he does get the ruling he's after, imagine the number of SBRs that'll get built here.
Not trying to be a jerk here, but do you honestly believe that someone's letter caused that thing to get banned? IMHO that device's days were numbered the moment it came out. The whole thing's legality was based off a tech branch letter involving a completely different gun, so it's existence was pretty thin to begin with. The ATF has always known to be completely absurd and retarded with regards to what is or is not considered a machinegun.
-Mike
Just imagine the number of 15.5" barrel SBRs that would be simultaneously submitted to the ATF
As for illuminating a potential loophole that will quickly be closed, that is why I'm wracking my brain. Most firearms law attorneys and experts have assumed for quite a while that the AWB would be applied to an SBR.
As for illuminating a potential loophole that will quickly be closed, that is why I'm wracking my brain. Most firearms law attorneys and experts have assumed for quite a while that the AWB would be applied to an SBR.
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The ATF blanked off the introduction/signature and failed to provide me with the mentioned enclosure, but on its face it looks to come from the CHSB. There is a little note on the bottom of the letter stating: Please contact AG's Office (MA). Either way... nothing about SBR's and it you really want your feet to tingle re-read the paragraph about the AWB
EDIT: no need to fuel the fire.
Interesting....I'm waiting on "clarification"
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No you have your facts wrong, they (the akins group) had TWO approval letters for the akins accelerator...then once out "someone" (its no real secret who) wrote requested his "own" letter. It was his letter which brought about theATF reclassifing a stock to be a post sample machinegun...
Here is the problem "if he gets the ruling he is after" ...thats one hell of a gamble for a very minor "victory". If he doesn't "get what he is after" well then if you look at their policy (in that letter) about SBS's its not hard to figure out what thier new SBR policy would be...
How do you figure? MA doesn't have a state law banning sawed off rifles.
Read the last sentence of there policy on SBS's, even though "factory" SBS's are Mass legal they won't approve (to regular folks) because thier office doesn't know how they were originally manufactured....
So hmm, not really a stretch that if they decide clarify thier possition on SBR's and the AW ban...well somethin like, " Since our branch doesn't record if a firearm was an assualt weapon prior to the massachusetts ban, we will approve Form 2s, 3s, and Form 5s for short barreled rifles".
***Just a side note, I'd be happy to continue this discussion, but unfortunately will be on vacation for a week, with no computer, so have fun with out me. But seriously befor anyone writes anyletters, don't consider just what good might come from that letter consider fully the "bad"***
Of course, even if BATFE says "according to MA SBRs are exempt from the AWB" what real legal bearing does that statement have? MA could still renege, absent some kind of
printed statement from EOPS or whoever the actual governing authority is... and chances are, we'll see that right around the time pigs start making regularly scheduled flights in and out of logan airport. Not to mention the AWB status of the gun is somewhat of an issue of mootness WRT SBRs, so technically BATFE doesn't even have go embroil themselves with that.
Bear in mind that BATFE just uses the state law tack in an effort to reduce the numbers of NFA registrations as much as they possibly can using the "must be legal in that
state" clause in the US code. BATFE could likely care less about whether or not someone could ever get busted on a state level charge, they just use it as a vehicle to
deny as many transfers as possible, when it is -clear- that they can get away with it.
-Mike
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Where the hell is my pitchfork ....
So was the AG desk guy going to look into it further on his side? Clearly ATF is working off some letter. If it is the text from the letter that Hickson posted then it would appear that ATF is riding well off the reservation.
Also did you include a copy of your LTC with the Form 1?
Also did you include a copy of your LTC with the Form 1?
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