Coyotes Are Becoming Wolves, Deadly On Mature Deer, Even Bucks

[pastera]

Novel mutation with beneficial attributes has been observed multiple times in bacteria. Keep in mind that we only recently learned how to sequence genomes - it will take quite a while to document beneficial mutations in things with longer generations. Already we can do quite interesting phylogenetic analysis of related species. Oh, one mutation that we have observed in humans is the adaptation to high altitude. Several populations of humans have independently adapted to altitude in a healthier way than humans normally adapt which is overproduction of red blood cells.

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Most of these beneficial mutations correct for one environmental factor but leave the organism less able to survive in a general situation (antibiotic immunity is an example).

As far as humans adapting to high altitude there was no new information just differential selection of existing traits based on environmental conditions - those who could perform better at altitude were afforded more opportunity to reproduce.

Without direct genetic manipulation we will not see measurable evolutionary processes in a lifetime or tens of lifetimes.

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[Sprocket]

I used to think that everything that killed/ate the same prey I did was an enemy - turns out, I'm in the woods way less than anything with fur or feathers. My role has a lot less impact on population than natural predation/mortality.

I'm not alarmed by coyotes in my yard - or fox or racoon, etc - they all want to eat the bunnies and squirrels that frequent the area - or [mostly] just pass thru to the golf course.

I know that Easterns are a hybrid of western Wyle-E-Coyote + Quebec wolves. I also know that loss of habitat has pushed the dogs to the point of changing - attacks on pets & people are just the way this hybrid is learning what is in play and what is not.

Anyone knows what is happening to the Black Duck population will understand. It's an awkward type of evolution.

Shooting a random dog may or may not be a good thing - if you understand the pack and know if you're taking the alpha [which actually keep the rest of them in check] it may be a bad thing. Now you've entered into understanding the pack.

Oh crap - I brought being knowledgeable into the discussion...

Fawk it - kill 'em all - let Ma Nature do the rest.

 

[browncoat]

Most of these beneficial mutations correct for one environmental factor but leave the organism less able to survive in a general situation (antibiotic immunity is an example).

As far as humans adapting to high altitude there was no new information just differential selection of existing traits based on environmental conditions - those who could perform better at altitude were afforded more opportunity to reproduce.

Without direct genetic manipulation we will not see measurable evolutionary processes in a lifetime or tens of lifetimes.

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Think about human jobs. You don't get good at most things by being good at everything, but by picking a specialization. Adjusting to a niche by decreasing general fitness makes sense. As for high altitude adjustment in humans, I think you are wrong. There are different genetic signatures between African, Asian, and South American high altitude populations, indicating they developed the ability separately. The fact that those mutations appear independently in the general population doesn't mean there is no new information being added. Every human has mutations that separate them from their parents. Most of those mutations are silent. Some of them end up causing cancer. And sometimes, groups of those mutations allow a population to live at high altitude and the mutations spread across and become fixed within the population. Just because the mutations appear independently long before fixation doesn't mean it's not all part of the slow process of evolution

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[Wickedcoolname]

Very insightful comment. Should't you be hitting the gun buyback to sell some guns?

Thank you. Absolutely. Looking to dump at least 3 junk pistols.

 

[Bt74]

Thank you. Absolutely. Looking to dump at least 3 junk pistols.

I'm sure you are. Buybacks are a great thing to some people. Good luck. Maybe you can use some of your blood money to go green?

 

[whacko]

I used to think that everything that killed/ate the same prey I did was an enemy - turns out, I'm in the woods way less than anything with fur or feathers. My role has a lot less impact on population than natural predation/mortality.

I'm not alarmed by coyotes in my yard - or fox or racoon, etc - they all want to eat the bunnies and squirrels that frequent the area - or [mostly] just pass thru to the golf course.

I know that Easterns are a hybrid of western Wyle-E-Coyote + Quebec wolves. I also know that loss of habitat has pushed the dogs to the point of changing - attacks on pets & people are just the way this hybrid is learning what is in play and what is not.

Anyone knows what is happening to the Black Duck population will understand. It's an awkward type of evolution.

Shooting a random dog may or may not be a good thing - if you understand the pack and know if you're taking the alpha [which actually keep the rest of them in check] it may be a bad thing. Now you've entered into understanding the pack.

Oh crap - I brought being knowledgeable into the discussion...

Fawk it - kill 'em all - let Ma Nature do the rest.

Yeah I get it. I was going to post about the presentation I attended on research on coyote behavior and that hunting them may make the population increase but.......I know it'll result in a flame war and hatred and discontent here on NES so.....


And btw......the biologist that presents such research is a hunter so.......not a moonbat pita asshats. To counter that stigma the first pictures she put up on the screen were photos of a many game she has harvested....bears, deer, Caribou......i aIways consider the source

 

[Horseman508]

Problem is probably that wolves are shy, and avoid humans, but coyotes are not, and don't avoid humans or densely populated areas.

I've seen it first hand. On a few occasions I've spotted coyotes walking along the edges of the woods on a few different golf courses; not bothered by us a few feet away at all.

 

[weekendracer]

Time to send in the Massachusetts Hybridization Stock...

Awww, look at the cute fluffly.......GET IT OFF ME.....GET IT OFF ME........*gurgle*

 

[tuna]

I always thought that hybrids were sterile. You can breed a donkey and a horse to get a mule, but mules can't breed. Or is it because coyotes and wolfs aren't as different as they seem, so they're more like poodles and collies, or Irish and Italians than horses and donkeys? I'm not a biologist, but this is NES so I'm sure that someone has a PHd in canine intercourse and will school us on this shortly.

I've been seeing them more and more when out hunting and fishing, but I've only seen the smaller sized ones - about the size of a 8 -12 month old german shepherd. I do remember someone taking a 75 pound coyote in Vermont several years ago that everyone thought was a wolf.

 

[whacko]

I always thought that hybrids were sterile. You can breed a donkey and a horse to get a mule, but mules can't breed. Or is it because coyotes and wolfs aren't as different as they seem, so they're more like poodles and collies, or Irish and Italians than horses and donkeys? I'm not a biologist, but this is NES so I'm sure that someone has a PHd in canine intercourse and will school us on this shortly.

I've been seeing them more and more when out hunting and fishing, but I've only seen the smaller sized ones - about the size of a 8 -12 month old german shepherd. I do remember someone taking a 75 pound coyote in Vermont several years ago that everyone thought was a wolf.

All canids can interbreed. Domestic dogs were developed from wolves thousands of years ago. Yes.....if you Breed that schnauzer with a wolf they will have fertile offspring.

The term."coywolf" is used sporadically as well as "coydog".......those are crossed between coyote and wolf or dog.......those offspring are fertile. No different than if you Breed a schnauzer with a pitbull.....fertile offspring. The way it was described to me in class......the "looks" an "personality" between different breeds of dogs (a d wolves or coyote) is likened to the differences in humans.....blond hair, black skin, white skin, blue eyes.....even personality......sound of your voice etc.....all DNA genetics.

Same with canids.

Basically......dogs....wolves.....coyote.....their DNA is so close that they can breed.


No PhD here.......but took quite a few courses in wildlife mgt and biology getting my BS in Forestry and also during my masters in logistics mgt I took some electives in fisheries and wildlife.

 

[pastera]

I used to think that everything that killed/ate the same prey I did was an enemy - turns out, I'm in the woods way less than anything with fur or feathers. My role has a lot less impact on population than natural predation/mortality.

I'm not alarmed by coyotes in my yard - or fox or racoon, etc - they all want to eat the bunnies and squirrels that frequent the area - or [mostly] just pass thru to the golf course.

I know that Easterns are a hybrid of western Wyle-E-Coyote + Quebec wolves. I also know that loss of habitat has pushed the dogs to the point of changing - attacks on pets & people are just the way this hybrid is learning what is in play and what is not.

Anyone knows what is happening to the Black Duck population will understand. It's an awkward type of evolution.

Shooting a random dog may or may not be a good thing - if you understand the pack and know if you're taking the alpha [which actually keep the rest of them in check] it may be a bad thing. Now you've entered into understanding the pack.

Oh crap - I brought being knowledgeable into the discussion...

Fawk it - kill 'em all - let Ma Nature do the rest.

Agreed - As far as ensuring and promoting a healthier and stronger herd, the coyotes are much better stewards than we are. Natural predators must conserve energy and protect themselves from injury when hunting and therefore predate those least likely to elude or injury them - the sick and weak. By removing the weaker animals and those more susceptible to disease, they reinforce the reproductive gene pool and by taking out the older, but tired and weakened, alpha buck they promote genetic diversity.

As hunters, we tend to let the lessor buck pass in favor of the trophy quality buck ensuring that those stronger genetics are removed from competition and actually are promoting a weaker herd.

Think about human jobs. You don't get good at most things by being good at everything, but by picking a specialization. Adjusting to a niche by decreasing general fitness makes sense. As for high altitude adjustment in humans, I think you are wrong. There are different genetic signatures between African, Asian, and South American high altitude populations, indicating they developed the ability separately. The fact that those mutations appear independently in the general population doesn't mean there is no new information being added. Every human has mutations that separate them from their parents. Most of those mutations are silent. Some of them end up causing cancer. And sometimes, groups of those mutations allow a population to live at high altitude and the mutations spread across and become fixed within the population. Just because the mutations appear independently long before fixation doesn't mean it's not all part of the slow process of evolution

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The genetic signatures are evidence of adaptation extinguishing a characteristic or trait in a population - that is loss of information not gain. The selective adaptation of larger lungs and higher red blood cell counts in high altitude populations is not evidence of new or novel genetic information - those with the traits that allowed for better survival at altitude had more successful reproduction rates and the genetic information for "normal" traits was bred out of that population due to the inability for that segment to compete. If those humans were to develop the ability to fructose as an energy supply instead of glucose in low oxygen conditions, like the naked mole rat, then that would be a novel use for that mechanism (although that genetic information does exist in humans, but only in the kidneys).

 

[RImike]

Down here in Newport RI on Aquidneck Island, we have a coy-wolf problem. They do indeed take down deer, I've seen them do it in my neighbor hood. Since everyone has fenced in back yards they have become very good at cornering the deer. Also going fishing at 4 in the morning on the way to Jamestown I saw a pack running across the Pell bridge. At first I thought a dog got lost it was so big but when I saw 3 of them it appears as if this wasn't their first time doing it. I only wonder if they had their transponder properly mounted.

 

[browncoat]

Agreed - As far as ensuring and promoting a healthier and stronger herd, the coyotes are much better stewards than we are. Natural predators must conserve energy and protect themselves from injury when hunting and therefore predate those least likely to elude or injury them - the sick and weak. By removing the weaker animals and those more susceptible to disease, they reinforce the reproductive gene pool and by taking out the older, but tired and weakened, alpha buck they promote genetic diversity.

As hunters, we tend to let the lessor buck pass in favor of the trophy quality buck ensuring that those stronger genetics are removed from competition and actually are promoting a weaker herd.




The genetic signatures are evidence of adaptation extinguishing a characteristic or trait in a population - that is loss of information not gain. The selective adaptation of larger lungs and higher red blood cell counts in high altitude populations is not evidence of new or novel genetic information - those with the traits that allowed for better survival at altitude had more successful reproduction rates and the genetic information for "normal" traits was bred out of that population due to the inability for that segment to compete. If those humans were to develop the ability to fructose as an energy supply instead of glucose in low oxygen conditions, like the naked mole rat, then that would be a novel use for that mechanism (although that genetic information does exist in humans, but only in the kidneys).

And that's where you are wrong. The adaptation to high altitude doesn't involve increased red blood cells in high altitude populations. That's how non adapted humans respond and there are long term health consequences for normal people living at altitude. Tibetans adapted for altitude show a mutation in a gene that is only found there and in some Chinese with common ancestry. That's new mutations conferring benefits.

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[browncoat]

I've seen it first hand. On a few occasions I've spotted coyotes walking along the edges of the woods on a few different golf courses; not bothered by us a few feet away at all.

Just yesterday my wife and I saw one running through our neighbors back yard, and we live in a relatively dense suburb. It was one of the 40-50 pounders my wife has run into it or a similar one while walking our son in his stroller.

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[Peaceseeker]

Well.....gotta say that, perhaps 8-10 years ago, on two occasions...once rather close-up and the other at some distance under a street light in the wee hours....I saw two that, compared to my 45 lb. dog, had to be comfortably-north of 50 lbs.... Just a judgment-of-the-eye, of course.

{And, yes, that was here in Foxboro, MA.}

 

[pastera]

And that's where you are wrong. The adaptation to high altitude doesn't involve increased red blood cells in high altitude populations. That's how non adapted humans respond and there are long term health consequences for normal people living at altitude. Tibetans adapted for altitude show a mutation in a gene that is only found there and in some Chinese with common ancestry. That's new mutations conferring benefits.

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True for Tibetans - the mutation that they experienced decreases the "normal" response to low oxygen saturation of increasing hemoglobin levels. That along with larger lung capacity and tendency to breath deeper and faster is the selected trait in that region. That mutation is not unique to Tibetans but occurs at an extremely high rate compared to their low land genetic neighbors

untrue for Andeans who adapted with an increase in hemoglobin and red blood cell count along with larger lung capacity

Also different are Ethiopian highlanders who adapt similarly to Tibetans but through a different genetic pathway


The Tibetan response is the loss of the ability to increase hemoglobin and red blood cell levels in order to counteract low oxygen saturation - It just happens to be a positive for that particular environment where it helps counter act altitude sickness. Same can be said for sick cell anemia and its associated reduction in susceptibility to malaria.

 

[whacko]

Some facts to "chew on"

4.7 million dog bites per year in U.S.

§ 800,000 need medical attention

§ 1,000 people per day go to ER for a dog bite

§ 15-20 people, on average, die per year from dog bite

► 4-5 coyote bites in Massachusetts’ history

§ 2 or 3 were rabid

§ 2 coyote fatalities in recorded history in N.A. in past 500 years: one on a toddler in Cali in early 1980s (food habituated animal) and one on an 18 year old lady in Nova Scotia in 2009

► Dog bite losses exceed $1 billion per year



Now.....the facts above leave out coyote impacts to pets and live stocK and game such as deer and rabbit.....I get it. But attacks on humans are RAAAAAARE!

 

[Dennis in MA]

Gotta be over a decade ago the local co-yo-tay pack took down a doe in my neighbor's backyard. Sounded like something out of a horror movie. LOL

They come and go. The deer seem to stay. For now. I've seen them during the rutting season on the side of the road in the Taunton-Dighton area in the last couple of years. Broad daylight. (First time I saw one was on the hill near the Comcast bldg in the Myles Standish Industrial Park. Ice cold January night. Snow on the hill. Coyote just stepped to the top and looked out. It was surreal. I thought Gregory Hines and Albert Finney were going to join me.)

 

[Shmella]

How is that not evolution?

It's exactly evolution.

The species that survive better under new conditions pass on their genes.

In this case "new conditions" were caused by over-hunting of wolves (according to the article)

This is what I was thinking. Wheres the argument this is not evolution?? Its pretty much evolution by definition.

 

[jhblaze1]

I've seen several in Saugus run right up my street. They're ****ing huge.

We have a 3 legged one that is an absolute monster.

 

[tuna]

Some facts to "chew on"

4.7 million dog bites per year in U.S.

§ 800,000 need medical attention

§ 1,000 people per day go to ER for a dog bite

§ 15-20 people, on average, die per year from dog bite

► 4-5 coyote bites in Massachusetts’ history

§ 2 or 3 were rabid

§ 2 coyote fatalities in recorded history in N.A. in past 500 years: one on a toddler in Cali in early 1980s (food habituated animal) and one on an 18 year old lady in Nova Scotia in 2009

► Dog bite losses exceed $1 billion per year



Now.....the facts above leave out coyote impacts to pets and live stocK and game such as deer and rabbit.....I get it. But attacks on humans are RAAAAAARE!

But Disney teaches everyone that wolves are bad and always are the pets of the big meanie villians and they're scary. Meanwhile, our dogs and cats can talk to us and are cute and cuddly, so it's especially terrible when they wind up a coyote's dinner. That's why even people who hate guns and hunting don't mind people shooting coyotes. If liberal snowflakes want me to shoot an animal, it is probably doing something I approve of.

I'm a deer and pheasant hunter, but I love watching coyotes in the wild - and have no awe about deer besides "aw, crap - missed!" Coyotes are just such cool animals to me, I always let them walk. If they bite a liberal, or eat their cat - so be it.

 

[whacko]

But Disney teaches everyone that wolves are bad and always are the pets of the big meanie villians and they're scary. Meanwhile, our dogs and cats can talk to us and are cute and cuddly, so it's especially terrible when they wind up a coyote's dinner. That's why even people who hate guns and hunting don't mind people shooting coyotes. If liberal snowflakes want me to shoot an animal, it is probably doing something I approve of.

I'm a deer and pheasant hunter, but I love watching coyotes in the wild - and have no awe about deer besides "aw, crap - missed!" Coyotes are just such cool animals to me, I always let them walk. If they bite a liberal, or eat their cat - so be it.

 

[MAGA99]

If liberal snowflakes want me to shoot an animal, it is probably doing something I approve of.

If liberal snowflakes want me to shoot a certain animal, that to me sounds like I should not be shooting that animal. If the liberals aren't livid, you're doing it wrong.

 

[browncoat]

If liberal snowflakes want me to shoot a certain animal, that to me sounds like I should not be shooting that animal. If the liberals aren't livid, you're doing it wrong.

That's what he said, you parsed it wrong. To translate, because liberals want people to shoot coyotes the coyotes are probably good fellows.

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[Sprocket]

Yeah I get it. I was going to post about the presentation I attended on research on coyote behavior and that hunting them may make the population increase but.......I know it'll result in a flame war and hatred and discontent here on NES so.....


And btw......the biologist that presents such research is a hunter so.......not a moonbat pita asshats. To counter that stigma the first pictures she put up on the screen were photos of a many game she has harvested....bears, deer, Caribou......i aIways consider the sourcie

It's safe to say we are on the same page
CHeers

 

[soloman02]

NH has no closed season on Coyotes and no bag limit. Night hunting from Jan 1-March 31. IIRC you can use lights and bait.
http://www.wildlife.state.nh.us/hunting/small-game-season.html

And now you can use suppressors to hunt!

 

[MisterHappy]

What is an "m"? You from Europe or something?

It's an excellent Scrabble word:

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/em



("en. too!)