Condominium Rules against guns?

[Titan]

The members of the Association would be cutting their own throats by doing this. At my girlfriend's condo complex, during the annual owners' meeting, the topic about banning pets came up. Apparently, some idiots refused to pick up after their animals and some areas were littered with poop. She owns a cat and "Pearl" never caused any problems. She pointed this out, along with the fact that such a ban would reduce the marketability of the units. The more bans in place, the less marketability. A gun ban would prevent hunters, target shooters, collectors, police officers, armed security guards (with or without Special Police Officer arrest powers) and single women who own guns for self-defense from purchasing a unit in such a complex.

Agreed.

However this is MA, and it doesn't mean it couldn't happen. I'm glad to hear your GF prevailed.

 

[Realtor MA]

To the OP. You've gotten some good advice in this thread. Any offer you make should be contingent upon a review of the condo docs, including financials. Your attorney will take a quick look at the docs. If he's a Real Estate attorney he may already have had some closings in that complex. If you have specific questions you should ask him. You should also read through the docs to be sure nothing jumps out at you. You will see clauses about not operating TVs and radios at loud volumes after 11pm, not hanging clothes on the balcony etc etc. Some people get very concerned about these types of restrictions but practically speaking they are seldom an issue. If you really want to live a freer life style perhaps a condo is not for you.
I'm not telling you anything a good Realtor wouldn't tell you.
FYI I have never seen a prohibition of firearms in any condo docs.

 

[Len-2A Training]

In a condo, aren't your gun rights only secure until a future condo board meeting?

Even if guns are allowed when you buy, I would think you could lose the ability to keep them if a future vote says they're no longer allowed.

Correct. My late MIL used to tell me "stories" about what went on at her condo assn BOD meetings (she was on the BOD) in FL. Busybodies change the rules all the time and they then affect EVERYONE, even if they weren't in writing when they "bought" the condo.

The question isn't "could it be cited?" The question is, "What does it say?"

Heller does not say that two or more parties jointly owning real property are barred from agreeing that none of them will possess firearms on the property, or that such a contract will not be enforced. This simply has nothing to do with the Second Amendment, however else interpreted.

Exactly, and here is the legal opinion some were seeking. Private property is a whole different ballgame and can essentially prohibit anything not SPECIFICALLY PROTECTED by the Fed Civil Rights Laws.

No, I am saying is that its nobody's business to know what you do in your own home that you pay for. I might be out of line here I'm not sure.

Correct. Nobody entering my house will see any evidence of gun ownership visible.

Not out of line. I was just clarifying what you meant. For me, the risk of discovery would be too great to take the risk, if I didn't already own a condo.

I'd avoid one, if at all possible. I even think that you might have better chances of keeping them if you lived in an apartment, where no condo rules apply.

I would think (and a lawyer will straighten me out, if wrong) that a peson with an LTC would be allowed to retain their rights in an apartment unless a prohibition was made clear before they rented.

Problems in a condo arise if you are seen leaving the unit/building with something that someone recognizes as a gun . . . and busybodies are legion in condos (and apartments).

Yes I suspect that as a tenant with a lease, the law would be more likely on your side if they change the rules after you sign the lease. Condo assns usually include a "disclaimer" that you will obey ANY CHANGES made later (after signing) during your ownership of the condo.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

LTC would be allowed to retain their rights in an apartment

You need to look at the practical dynamics of the power balance. Once you live in an apartment, you have the landlord by the reproductive glands. Just consider who would come out ahead if the landlord tried to impose a gun ban and the tenant said "That is a substantial change in terms I do not agree to; I am stopping paying rent now; and I will use every aspect of the MA court process to stretch out my occupancy in this unit for as long as possible. If you back off on the ban, my rent checks will continue to arrive on time every month. Your move."

Now compare that to condo fines and the dynamics of the MA "super lien" used to enforce collection thereof.

 

[ARowley]

Buy a house instead Condos are a PTA. All the rules and connected walls. I lived in one for 9 years and I am not going back.

 

[RKG]

IANAL, but you are correct. It was also briefly discussed in this thread :

http://www.northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/showthread.php/73731-CCW-on-your-property-when-renting?

Not necessarily.

 

[BillyBoy]

Buy a house instead Condos are a PTA. All the rules and connected walls. I lived in one for 9 years and I am not going back.

I think it depends on the condo community. The community I live in has pretty relaxed rules.

 

[P-14]

In a condo, aren't your gun rights only secure until a future condo board meeting?

Even if guns are allowed when you buy, I would think you could lose the ability to keep them if a future vote says they're no longer allowed.

The board cannot vote away your right to keep them in your condo. They can vote to forbid them in comment spaces - hallways, meeting rooms, driveways, etc. Then, I would use a don't ask-don't tell approach, if I lived where these Nazis ruled.

 

[RKG]

The board cannot vote away your right to keep them in your condo. They can vote to forbid them in comment spaces - hallways, meeting rooms, driveways, etc. Then, I would use a don't ask-don't tell approach, if I lived where these Nazis ruled.

I believe this statement to be quite wrong (insofar as it purports a legal opinion on the possible reach of "bylaws" of a "unit owners' association" of a condominium), absent some limitation on those powers contained in the Master Deed.

 

[Kevlar]

Not necessarily.

Care to elaborate, counselor?

 

[Titan]

The board cannot vote away your right to keep them in your condo. They can vote to forbid them in comment spaces - hallways, meeting rooms, driveways, etc. Then, I would use a don't ask-don't tell approach, if I lived where these Nazis ruled.

I wouldn't live anywhere that I had to tiptoe around for fear of being expelled, forced to move my family, and driven to absorb a likely financial loss.

I understand there are probably lots of folks in that position, though.

 

[Bill Nance]

Best advice you'll ever get:

Don't ever buy something with a homeowners assoc. Seriously, just don't do it. Chances are better than average you will run afoul somehow, and if nothing else it's an extra bill every year/month.

Renting a nice apartment is a much better alternative to owning a condo IMO. You can find other places to invest than the house you live in.

 

[RKG]

Care to elaborate, counselor?

Hard to do without writing a treatise and asking a whole bunch of questions. What type of tenancy? Term? Terms? Circumstances under which the the issue arises. But as a blanket statement, applicable without regard to any of these particulars, the assertion to which I responded "not necessarily" is far too broad and unqualified.

 

[Realtor MA]

I've been thinking about this thread over the last several days. As you might imagine I see people pretty much every day who are faced with making the decision between a condo and a single family. In some cases there are even more options ie) a two family or continuing to rent.
Condo living is not for everybody. Particularly those who like their privacy. However, you do get more for your money in a condo and you do get the comfort and convenience of not having to worry about exterior maintenance. For those who have been renting it is a 'freer' life style. For those who are moving to a condo from a single family it is more restrictive.
I understand the concerns raised about owning guns as a condo owner and the fear that an association might change the rules. But by my way of thinking it's all theoretical and probably a little far fetched to think that it would happen. I may be wroing but I don't think there's anyone here who can cite a real world example of a condo association that prohibits gun ownership.
I'm also thinking that it would probably take a vote of the ownership rather than a simple BOD decision to implement this type of ruling but I will defer to the lawyers on that matter.

 

[Titan]

I've been thinking about this thread over the last several days. As you might imagine I see people pretty much every day who are faced with making the decision between a condo and a single family. In some cases there are even more options ie) a two family or continuing to rent.
Condo living is not for everybody. Particularly those who like their privacy. However, you do get more for your money in a condo and you do get the comfort and convenience of not having to worry about exterior maintenance. For those who have been renting it is a 'freer' life style. For those who are moving to a condo from a single family it is more restrictive.
I understand the concerns raised about owning guns as a condo owner and the fear that an association might change the rules. But by my way of thinking it's all theoretical and probably a little far fetched to think that it would happen. I may be wroing but I don't think there's anyone here who can cite a real world example of a condo association that prohibits gun ownership.
I'm also thinking that it would probably take a vote of the ownership rather than a simple BOD decision to implement this type of ruling but I will defer to the lawyers on that matter.

For what many pay in condo fees (not to mention 'special assessments') you could afford some pretty good 'exterior maintenance' services as a single family home owner.

You also end up with an 'asset' you have usually have a horrific time selling because there is almost always a generous supply of identical units competing for your potential buyers.

I don't know anyone who bought a condo who didn't regret it either because of endless 'special assessment' or difficulty selling, when they wanted to.

 

[P-14]

I believe this statement to be quite wrong (insofar as it purports a legal opinion on the possible reach of "bylaws" of a "unit owners' association" of a condominium), absent some limitation on those powers contained in the Master Deed.

Counselor: Perhaps I should have restricted my comment to my own condo association. The Master Deed freely and clearly does not restrict anything with my condo space that is within the law and codes.

 

[Realtor MA]

For what many pay in condo fees (not to mention 'special assessments') you could afford some pretty good 'exterior maintenance' services as a single family home owner.

You also end up with an 'asset' you have usually have a horrific time selling because there is almost always a generous supply of identical units competing for your potential buyers.

I don't know anyone who bought a condo who didn't regret it either because of endless 'special assessment' or difficulty selling, when they wanted to.

I have no preference and no prejudice either way. Condos are a good choice for some people and not a good choice for others. It depends on a lot of things.
Not unlike a house, if the condo is well constructed and well maintained and in a nice location it will make a much better investment.
Some condo fees are high. Others are a bargain. I have no idea what type of home you own but I'm quite sure you could not maintain your house for $300 per month. That would include the following; water/sewer, insurance, pool & tennis courts(if you have them), lawn maintenance, snow removal, driveway, paint, roof, heating systems, exterior lighting and a reserve fund for misc. Even if you do everything yourself you'll still have a hard time staying in that budget. As for the special assessment I'll refer back to my statement above. If it's a well constructed building and it's been well maintained you'll probably be fine. I can show you condos today that have hundreds of thousands of $$ in reserves. No worries about special assessments there. And FWIW in a single family home you have special assessments too. They're called unexpected expenses.
As far as your friends who have difficulty selling their condos; They should be calling me!!

ETA For every person you can show me who regrets buying a condo, I can show you 10 who are thrilled that they did.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Counselor: Perhaps I should have restricted my comment to my own condo association. The Master Deed freely and clearly does not restrict anything with my condo space that is within the law and codes.

The issue is not "what does the master deed restrict", but "does the master deed give the condo association the authority to restrict anything within your condo space that is within the law and codes" - two different concepts.

What boggles the mind is people who by half a a condex (two family house made into a condo with two equal voting shares).

 

[P-14]

The issue is not "what does the master deed restrict", but "does the master deed give the condo association the authority to restrict anything within your condo space that is within the law and codes" - two different concepts.

What boggles the mind is people who by half a a condex (two family house made into a condo with two equal voting shares).

The master deed in my case does not give the condo association the authority to restrict anything within your condo space that is within the law and codes. But, each of you who are considering a condo should read the condo documents carefully.

 

[RKG]

Counselor: Perhaps I should have restricted my comment to my own condo association. The Master Deed freely and clearly does not restrict anything with my condo space that is within the law and codes.

I cannot, and do not, give you advice with respect to a specific situation, involving documents that I have not read (and don't really want to).

That said, the issue is not what the Master Deed does not restrict, but rather how the Master Deed defines (and perhaps limits) the powers of the unit owners' association to create rules and regulations from time to time in the future.

 

[RKG]

The master deed in my case does not give the condo association the authority to restrict anything within your condo space that is within the law and codes. But, each of you who are considering a condo should read the condo documents carefully.

Good for you. This is exactly the sort of restriction on the "rules and regulations" power bestowed on unit owners' associations that I had hypothesized.

 

[Realtor MA]

What boggles the mind is people who by half a a condex (two family house made into a condo with two equal voting shares).

Most of the people who buy a two family or duplex condo are coming from a rental environment. When they buy the condo it's a similar lifestyle except that now they share in the ownership and control. I know it sounds a little silly but relatively speaking they are 'taking a step up'.
Another strange phenomon I find with these two unit condos is that most people who buy them tend to go in with the attitude of getting along and making things work.
I'm not saying they are without problems and I'm not saying they are my cup of tea but they tend to work.

 

[SecondAmdFirst]

This

 

[GSG]

I have to believe that 'incorporation' is only a formality with respect to the 2nd Amendment.

I can't imagine anyone successfully arguing that there is an individual right to keep and bear arms only in Washington, D.C.

Common sense has to come into play at some point.

I'd like to think so too, but not with people like Feinstein, Pelosi, Kerry and Holder in office.

I may be wroing but I don't think there's anyone here who can cite a real world example of a condo association that prohibits gun ownership.
I'm also thinking that it would probably take a vote of the ownership rather than a simple BOD decision to implement this type of ruling but I will defer to the lawyers on that matter.

Full story here http://www.wtvf.com/Global/story.asp?S=6242822

ANTIOCH, Tenn.- Some people in a Nashville neighborhood are furious over a new rule that makes it illegal to own a gun.

Residents in Nashboro Village said it's unconstitutional and leaves them defenseless.

Two weeks ago, residents received a letter from their homeowners' association indicating that guns are not allowed on the property.

And TN is a very pro-2A state...

 

[GSG]

And a member here on NES had this happen.

http://www.northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/showthread.php/30253-Condo-bans-semi-automatic-guns

 

[Titan]

I have no preference and no prejudice either way. Condos are a good choice for some people and not a good choice for others. It depends on a lot of things.
Not unlike a house, if the condo is well constructed and well maintained and in a nice location it will make a much better investment.
Some condo fees are high. Others are a bargain. I have no idea what type of home you own but I'm quite sure you could not maintain your house for $300 per month. That would include the following; water/sewer, insurance, pool & tennis courts(if you have them), lawn maintenance, snow removal, driveway, paint, roof, heating systems, exterior lighting and a reserve fund for misc. Even if you do everything yourself you'll still have a hard time staying in that budget. As for the special assessment I'll refer back to my statement above. If it's a well constructed building and it's been well maintained you'll probably be fine. I can show you condos today that have hundreds of thousands of $$ in reserves. No worries about special assessments there. And FWIW in a single family home you have special assessments too. They're called unexpected expenses.
As far as your friends who have difficulty selling their condos; They should be calling me!!

ETA For every person you can show me who regrets buying a condo, I can show you 10 who are thrilled that they did.

There's still that pesky issue of the 'collective' deciding how you live your life (whether or not you can own guns, etc.).

Good luck to those who are happy with the set up.

 

[Realtor MA]

There's still that pesky issue of the 'collective' deciding how you live your life (whether or not you can own guns, etc.).

Good luck to those who are happy with the set up.

Agreed!

ETA

ANTIOCH, Tenn.- Some people in a Nashville neighborhood are furious over a new rule that makes it illegal to own a gun.

Residents in Nashboro Village said it's unconstitutional and leaves them defenseless.

Two weeks ago, residents received a letter from their homeowners' association indicating that guns are not allowed on the property.

According to the article they plan to reverse this rule. The article refers to a HOA rather than a condo association. It also doesn't mention whether the 'residents' are homeowners or renters. It'll be interesting to follow this one.

 

[Serapis]

Does belonging to a condo mean you lose basic constitutional rights? If so, if the covenants say so can they kick me out because I am not a specific race.?

 

[Len-2A Training]

Does belonging to a condo mean you lose basic constitutional rights? If so, if the covenants say so can they kick me out because I am not a specific race.?

You are correct, with one caveat . . . they can NOT discriminate against enumerated minorities under the Civil Rights Act. Other than that, they pretty much have free reign on what they can do/can't do based on their condo assn bylaws and covenants.

 

[RKG]

Does belonging to a condo mean you lose basic constitutional rights? If so, if the covenants say so can they kick me out because I am not a specific race.?

1) No.

2) You have no constitutional right against private racial discrimination.

3) You have a federal statutory right against private racial discrimination, in some circumstances.

4) Has no relevance to guns prior to "incorporation" of Second Amendment and most likely will have no relevance after "incorporation."