Concealed Carry in a School?

[beldavius]

So here's the question: Does the concealed carry restriction for schools only apply to public schools? Several friends and I could carry at church on Sundays, with the full knowledge and blessing (so to speak) of the pastor. Our church, however has a private school that does pre-school through 8th grade during the week. Hypothetically speaking, would carrying in this instance be a violation of the letter of the law restricting CCW on school grounds?

 

[P-14]

IANAL, but I think if you have permission from the school (probably the Pastor or Principal), you can carry at the school. I used to shoot at a high school range in a suburb of Buffalo and the Principal gave all participants permission to bring their firearms on the property. We never had any issues.

 

[depicts]

IANAL, but I think there is some technical bit that says "written permission". It would probably never come up in your situation, but if I'm wrong I''m sure many people will say so soon.

 

[M1911]

So here's the question: Does the concealed carry restriction for schools only apply to public schools? Several friends and I could carry at church on Sundays, with the full knowledge and blessing (so to speak) of the pastor. Our church, however has a private school that does pre-school through 8th grade during the week. Hypothetically speaking, would carrying in this instance be a violation of the letter of the law restricting CCW on school grounds?

The restriction covers all schools -- both public and private. MGL Chapter 269 Section 10 Paragraph J:

(j) Whoever, not being a law enforcement officer, and notwithstanding any license obtained by him under the provisions of chapter one hundred and forty, carries on his person a firearm as hereinafter defined, loaded or unloaded or other dangerous weapon in any building or on the grounds of any elementary or secondary school, college or university without the written authorization of the board or officer in charge of such elementary or secondary school, college or university shall be punished by a fine of not more than one thousand dollars or by imprisonment for not more than one year, or both. For the purpose of this paragraph, “firearm” shall mean any pistol, revolver, rifle or smoothbore arm from which a shot, bullet or pellet can be discharged by whatever means.

Full text here: http://www.mass.gov/legis/laws/mgl/269-10.htm

IANAL, but it seems to me that you need written permission from the head of the school, whether that is the pastor or someone else.

 

[Kevlar]

depicts is correct.

M.G.L. c.269 s.10(j):

Whoever, not being a law enforcement officer, and notwithstanding any license obtained by him under the provisions of chapter one hundred and forty, carries on his person a firearm as hereinafter defined, loaded or unloaded or other dangerous weapon in any building or on the grounds of any elementary or secondary school, college or university without the written authorization of the board or officer in charge of such elementary or secondary school, college or university shall be punished by a fine of not more than one thousand dollars or by imprisonment for not more than one year, or both. For the purpose of this paragraph, “firearm” shall mean any pistol, revolver, rifle or smoothbore arm from which a shot, bullet or pellet can be discharged by whatever means.

ETA: M1911 beat me to it

 

[beldavius]

The restriction covers all schools -- both public and private. MGL Chapter 269 Section 10 Paragraph J:


Full text here: http://www.mass.gov/legis/laws/mgl/269-10.htm

IANAL, but it seems to me that you need written permission from the head of the school, whether that is the pastor or someone else.

Interesting! And if I read the next sentence in that paragraph correctly, if the pastor or head of the school doesn't provide written permission, but knows about it, he's guilty of a misdemeanor?

Any officer in charge of an elementary or secondary school, college or university or any faculty member or administrative officer of an elementary or secondary school, college or university failing to report violations of this paragraph shall be guilty of a misdemeanor and punished by a fine of not more than five hundred dollars.

All hypothetically speaking, of course!

 

[M1911]

Interesting! And if I read the next sentence in that paragraph correctly, if the pastor or head of the school doesn't provide written permission, but knows about it, he's guilty of a misdemeanor?

Yup.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Yup.

Not certain. In order to sustain a conviction,

The entire facility, not just the are used for "class" would have to be found to be the building or grounds of the school. The church might be found to not be "part of the school". Or it might.

 

[dixidawg]

There are a lot of not so clear cut boundaries for what a school consists of. For example, MGH has a School of Nursing. Students are often on the Med Surg floors doing clinicals etc. Does this mean that those floors and other parts of MGH are a school? Anyone want to be a test case?

 

[Len-2A Training]

There are a lot of not so clear cut boundaries for what a school consists of. For example, MGH has a School of Nursing. Students are often on the Med Surg floors doing clinicals etc. Does this mean that those floors and other parts of MGH are a school? Anyone want to be a test case?

. . . and if you walk by a group of students on a sidewalk . . .

This has been beaten to death too many times to count.

 

[jasons]

Anyone want to offer an opinion on what "in any building or on the grounds of" means exactly? For example, let's just say that I have a "friend" who works on one floor of a multi-floor office building. One of the local colleges has some administrative offices (and possibly classrooms, not sure) a couple floors down. Is the entire building a "school" or just that one floor? If I carry in the elevator on my way to my office and the elevator stops on that floor am I now a felon?

Another example: if you get off the T at Ruggles are you technically "on the grounds of" Northeastern if you stay on the sidewalk?

 

[Titan]

I believe that teaching, especially part time, that occurs in a church doesn't constitute a school, but IANAL.

Since in your case, the teaching is a regular weekday activity, the court (as Rob said) may or may not declare it a school. I would think they would.

Again, written permission resolves the issue.

 

[M1911]

Anyone want to offer an opinion on what "in any building or on the grounds of" means exactly? For example, let's just say that I have a "friend" who works on one floor of a multi-floor office building. One of the local colleges has some administrative offices (and possibly classrooms, not sure) a couple floors down. Is the entire building a "school" or just that one floor? If I carry in the elevator on my way to my office and the elevator stops on that floor am I now a felon?

I suspect that would be unlikely to be considered a school, but when I had an attorney research this for me ~10 years ago he could find no precedent.

Another example: if you get off the T at Ruggles are you technically "on the grounds of" Northeastern if you stay on the sidewalk?

I suspect that as long as you are on the sidewalk of a public street, that would not be considered to be part of the school.

Of course, IANAL and it sure would suck to be the test case.

 

[M1911]

I believe that teaching, especially part time, that occurs in a church doesn't constitute a school, but IANAL.

From the original post:

Our church, however has a private school that does pre-school through 8th grade during the week

I don't see anything that suggests this is "part time."

 

[Titan]

Anyone want to offer an opinion on what "in any building or on the grounds of" means exactly? For example, let's just say that I have a "friend" who works on one floor of a multi-floor office building. One of the local colleges has some administrative offices (and possibly classrooms, not sure) a couple floors down. Is the entire building a "school" or just that one floor? If I carry in the elevator on my way to my office and the elevator stops on that floor am I now a felon?

Another example: if you get off the T at Ruggles are you technically "on the grounds of" Northeastern if you stay on the sidewalk?

Just my opinion (and common sense) but I'd assume that the school, in that case, is the floorspace occupied by the school and not the entire building.

 

[M1911]

Just my opinion (and common sense) but I'd assume that the school, in that case, is the floorspace occupied by the school and not the entire building.

Laws seldom have much to do with common sense. Witness the MA definition of a "firearm" in MGL Chapter 140 Section 121.

 

[Titan]

From the original post:


I don't see anything that suggests this is "part time."

I agree with you and covered that in post #12 but maybe I was editing while you were posting.

 

[dixidawg]

. . . and if you walk by a group of students on a sidewalk . . .

This has been beaten to death too many times to count.

And what were the results of that beating?

MGH students on MGH property being "schooled" on say the MGH Oncology floor as they make their rounds? It IS where their learning takes place and is a required part of their curriculum.

Completely different from students on the sidewalk....

Or are you volunteeering to be the test case? ;-)

 

[Titan]

Laws seldom have much to do with common sense. Witness the MA definition of a "firearm" in MGL Chapter 140 Section 121.

Good point!

 

[holyroler]

if you work at a public school...can you carry if the principal gives written permission.

 

[Len-2A Training]

And what were the results of that beating?

MGH students on MGH property being "schooled" on say the MGH Oncology floor as they make their rounds? It IS where their learning takes place and is a required part of their curriculum.

Completely different from students on the sidewalk....

Or are you volunteeering to be the test case? ;-)

Yes, and wherever I worked as a Co-Op student from NU must have been a "school" too, after all it was a requirement for the degree back when I was there!

I don't let it worry me! I ccw'd when I taught at a college . . . and in fact one time I was running so late leaving a detail that I almost taught that class in full uniform!

 

[M1911]

if you work at a public school...can you carry if the principal gives written permission.

Yes. Good luck getting that written permission.

 

[dixidawg]

Yes, and wherever I worked as a Co-Op student from NU must have been a "school" too, after all it was a requirement for the degree back when I was there!

I don't let it worry me! I ccw'd when I taught at a college . . . and in fact one time I was running so late leaving a detail that I almost taught that class in full uniform!

Did you miss the part that it was an MGH student on MGH property fulfilling an MGH curriculum requirement?

That it doesn't worry you somehow means that my original point of "There are a lot of not so clear cut boundaries for what a school consists of."
is somehow invalid?

 

[Len-2A Training]

dixidawg, believe what you will. If you want to believe that every inch of MGH is a "school" since Med/Nursing students are present, doing and learning as they go thru their education, be my guest. I am certain that Mumbles Menino and Snoopy Dog Davis will agree with you . . . as well as some DAs and some judges with their normal anti-gun bias. I'm not a subscriber to the tinfoil crowd, so you and I will disagree here.

Having had business at one of the Med Schools in Boston last year I can tell you that the one I was in was very definitely separate from the hospital part of the operation, with their own security and a card-key system to keep anyone out that didn't have legit access needs in that area. The police Lt. who assisted me in finding the person I needed and provided access to those restricted areas didn't ask or care what, if anything I might have been carrying.

To address your particular example, it looks like MGH Institute for Health Professions is officially resident at the US Navy Yard in Charlestown. Not a place you are likely to be for a doctor's office visit or hospitalization.
http://www.mghihp.edu/about-us/directions/default.aspx
Charlestown Navy Yard
36 First Avenue
Boston, MA 02129-4557

Therefore, I'll contend that a student working at MGH, BWH, DFCI, etc. would be the equivalent of my prior example: when I was a NU Co-Op student working at various companies.
Partners Healthcare owns all of the above:
http://www.partners.org/research/research_teaching.html

TTBOMK, there is no case law on this and the law prohibiting guns at any school in MA goes back to 1966-ish, right after Whitman shot the students from the clock-tower in Texas.

At one time NU tried to ban LEO students from carrying on campus due to a ND, but they quickly learned that they couldn't legally do that. This was back in the 1970s IIRC.

 

[Jaxon]

That's why they call it "concealed"....

 

[depicts]

Just my opinion (and common sense) but I'd assume that the school, in that case, is the floorspace occupied by the school and not the entire building.

Titan, please don't try and bring "common sense" into any issue regarding mass Firearms law.

I've found common sense to be ridiculously lacking in Massachusetts courts.

 

[Titan]

Titan, please don't try and bring "common sense" into any issue regarding mass Firearms law.

I've found common sense to be ridiculously lacking in Massachusetts courts.

A moment of weakness....I should have known better!