Comm2A, SAF, GOAL and FPC file against Baker admin on shop closures

Jason Flare said:
Actually the state did concede. They stopped being a broken record and dreamed up some ridiculous restrictions.

The judge did nothing but agree with the state.

On the other hand the state could have said something like, “In good conscience we see no way for gun shops to open in this uncertain time.“ Just like the plaintiff took the opposite stand that gun shops were essential and should be allowed to open under existing social distancing guidelines.

I don’t see the judge doing any more than getting the state to admit their broken record wasn’t broken and then conceded to the state’s requirements.
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No.

The state offered a pre calculated limitation, which they have verified is the slowest and most restrictive operation of any fun shop or gun shop. The judge allowed it.

It's like only allowing trucks on the highway to use first gear low range.

No gear shifting.
 
fshalor said:
No.

The state offered a pre calculated limitation, which they have verified is the slowest and most restrictive operation of any fun shop or gun shop. The judge allowed it.

It's like only allowing trucks on the highway to use first gear low range.

No gear shifting.
Click to expand...

The only sort of FFL I would imagine could survive this, lives in the Mill under the protection of @one-eyed Jack
 
fshalor said:
This isn't a win. I can't see them opening to 4/hr.

I'm sorry to detract from it. I do understand that it is a logistic step in a difficulr+-to-+move direction in the 4d chess game.

Should the state pay for Calendy pro plans for all gunshop employees?

calendly.com

Free Online Appointment Scheduling Software | Calendly

Calendly is the modern scheduling platform that makes “finding time” a breeze. When connecting is easy, your teams can get more done.
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The state just placed a burden on them, without justification. (or well, I guess this is a TRO , so technically the court did. )

Can anyone do the maths along side me? I can't envision a world where any brick and mortar could even pay the power bill on a diet of transfer fees only.

Taking a small shop example 1 owner 3 employees. Open 7 days a week. Normal daily peak hour serves 50 people. Conversion rate of 20%.

One employee is the gunsmith. Half the time he gets brought up from the dungeon, it's a turn-a-way.

So an hour block could have been:
10 transactions.
2 ffl transfer fees $60
2 ammo purchases for $200 (profit $50)
1 gunsmith sight install $75 minus the $30 to the employee and $20 for insurance and taxes on his overhead.
1 handgun sale Taurus Curve and a box of .380 $400 (profit $100)
1 used gun consignment sale (maybe $50 profit)
1 new rifle sale $1100 Ruger American Scout with goodies (profit $150)
1 pepper spray for a dudes GF $12 ($5 maybe )
1 fake turkey lawn ornament as a joke ($5)

This is a kicking business, employees make 20-35/hr (40 hr / week. 2 off per year paid. With health insurance)

Take that example hour. 20% conversion rate. 50 person flow.

If 20 of those hours happened a week, this shop would pull in $1.9 million a year net. $225k in profit. Call that a baseline.

Now yank that down to 4 /hour
Max: $85k (biggest transactions )
Min: -$211k (smallest transactions)

This was calculated assuming a 100% conversion rate per appointment (all appointments generate a sale. Doubtful. Should actually be between 50% and 75% conversion.)

Now If 2/3 employees were fired. Not including unemployment costs.

Max: $248k
Min: -$71k

That's a lot of risk.No way would I run a business with a potential swing into the red that far.

20 good hours per week at my initial rates would give me a few hundred K in profit, while paying for 3 employees. Business flow would have to cut that in half to see a loss.

Vs the 4apt/hour plan. Which offers no ability to maintain a floor on paper.
Click to expand...
For larger shops you are correct. For the tiny shops, they can work with this and usually it is merely a part-time gig for them.
 
I have 07FFL and thought about offering transfer services to bigger gun shops. Only problem, I am so busy with work, I wont have the time. The idea was that bigger shops use smaller shops like at The Mill to provide transfer services. The big gun shops still get the sale but the gun is locally shipped to a close by smaller shop who can get the transfer fee. It frees up valuable time from the big shops from doing the 4473. I think customers would understand that given the state restrictions the added transfer fee and another trip to a close by shop is the trade off to getting what they want. The alternative is to wait longer for an appointment. The big shops could sell more than 4 guns per hour by having the actual transfers to the customer done at a rate of 4 per hour at the smaller shops. Each smaller ffl could absorb upto 36, 4473's per day. Big gun store can still do their own 36 transfer. If there are like 50 ffls at the mill then the mill could cover up to 1800 gun sales per day. For the record I am not at the mill. It was just an idea which may be completely impractical.
 
HARRYM said:
Very grateful for G.O.A.L. and all who help them. Proud to be a member. I fully agree we should always remember those who are willing to stand with and for us.
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The Second Amendment Foundation and Firearms Policy Coalition were very supportive of the case. Comm2A was involved and the attorney Jensen has a long standing relationship with Comm2A and has argued cases for them in the past. Whether or not the attorney for the other case (Couture) was of benefit or not is a matter of subjective opinion.
 
Rob Boudrie said:
The Second Amendment Foundation and Firearms Policy Coalition were very supportive of the case. Comm2A was involved and the attorney Jensen has a long standing relationship with Comm2A and has argued cases for them in the past. Whether or not the attorney for the other case (Couture) was of benefit or not is a matter of subjective opinion.
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Can you clarify the thread title, given your comments (here and earlier) and the Comm2a account being the OP?
"Comm2A, SAF, GOAL and FPC file against Baker admin on shop closures"

Today Comm2A joined by partners Second Amendment Foundation, Firearms Policy Coalition, and Gun Owners Action League filed suit against several Massachusetts officials and police chiefs over the Commonwealth's closure of businesses selling firearms and ammunition.
Click to expand...

Not trying to throw anyone under the bus, just looking for clarity.
 
rommel said:
I have 07FFL and thought about offering transfer services to bigger gun shops. Only problem, I am so busy with work, I wont have the time. The idea was that bigger shops use smaller shops like at The Mill to provide transfer services. The big gun shops still get the sale but the gun is locally shipped to a close by smaller shop who can get the transfer fee. It frees up valuable time from the big shops from doing the 4473. I think customers would understand that given the state restrictions the added transfer fee and another trip to a close by shop is the trade off to getting what they want. The alternative is to wait longer for an appointment. The big shops could sell more than 4 guns per hour by having the actual transfers to the customer done at a rate of 4 per hour at the smaller shops. Each smaller ffl could absorb upto 36, 4473's per day. Big gun store can still do their own 36 transfer. If there are like 50 ffls at the mill then the mill could cover up to 1800 gun sales per day. For the record I am not at the mill. It was just an idea which may be completely impractical.
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Why wouldnt someone order online (and not pay sales tax) or have the small shop from the mill order the item online, rather than having to call the store, paying over the phone (since most shops are not set up to do online transactions), having them ship it, then pay an extra $20 on top of the already paid sales tax at the first shop.
 
I'm the one who made the statement that I feel like Charlie Brown ready to kick the football. While lying on my back I started to think about this. This was a small win for us (mass gun owners) and a small loss for the state. If the state had their way their would be no gun sales until everything reopens.(actually no gun sales period) This is a long war of attrition. We're fighting an entire system with unlimited funds. My guess is the state is pretty pissed about the loss no mater how minor. They never lose. Right now gun stores are open, yes a very limited business for now. but open. This unfortunately is how we have to fight. We need to keep winning these little victories and maybe over time they add up. I don't for see a grand slam win from the Supremes anytime soon. Hopefully I'm wrong. this is the equivalent to fighting someone way tougher than you and losing but you knocked a tooth out and stuck their eye pretty good.
 
Jason Flare said:
I don’t know about MA but in FL there are shops as big as grocery stores with pallets full of guns and employees at counters all around.
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We have shops as big as grocery stores.

Four seasons is the size of one of those small ethnic grocery stores.

Unless you consider Cabelas or Bass Pro a gun store, there is nothing "big" around here.

I have also never seen 50 people in a gun store. Not a 4 seasons or SO. I can say I have seen 50+ at KTP.
 
Broccoli Iglesias said:
We have shops as big as grocery stores.

Four seasons is the size of one of those small ethnic grocery stores.

Unless you consider Cabelas or Bass Pro a gun store, there is nothing "big" around here.

I have also never seen 50 people in a gun store. Not a 4 seasons or SO. I can say I have seen 50+ at KTP.
Click to expand...
I’ve only been to the small shops in Western MA and B&K in Natick.
 
Broccoli Iglesias said:
We have shops as big as grocery stores.

Four seasons is the size of one of those small ethnic grocery stores.

Unless you consider Cabelas or Bass Pro a gun store, there is nothing "big" around here.

I have also never seen 50 people in a gun store. Not a 4 seasons or SO. I can say I have seen 50+ at KTP.
Click to expand...

It’s in RI, but D&L is pretty big. It just seems smaller because the entire space is filled with ammo and firearms.
 
fshalor said:
The only sort of FFL I would imagine could survive this, lives in the Mill under the protection of @one-eyed Jack and Megan.
Click to expand...
FIFY
I have also never seen 50 people in a gun store. Not a 4 seasons or SO. I can say I have seen 50+ at KTP.
Click to expand...
Yes, but have you seen KTPs gun counter so busy they had several staff members working with customers on gun purchase paperwork and customers literally taking a number for their turn to make a purchase? Or seen 8+ people concurrently working their gun counter?
 
Rob Boudrie said:
FIFY

Yes, but have you seen KTPs gun counter so busy they had several staff members working with customers on gun purchase paperwork and customers literally taking a number for their turn to make a purchase? Or seen 8+ people concurrently working their gun counter?
Click to expand...

I think the most I counted was a few months back on that white board where they write names, they had something like 7 names, those are the ones that finished their background check. So, no idea how many were being processed.

Thar same day, there were 3 people, including myself, waiting to go do the background check.
 
Jason Flare said:
I’ve only been to the small shops in Western MA and B&K in Natick.
Click to expand...
Same here. Like I said, you're lucky if you are not the only customer in there for a half hour; this would make 4 an hour an increase. Some places would not be able to hold more than 4-5 people if the 6 foot rule was in effect.


Rob Boudrie said:
FIFY

Yes, but have you seen KTPs gun counter so busy they had several staff members working with customers on gun purchase paperwork and customers literally taking a number for their turn to make a purchase? Or seen 8+ people concurrently working their gun counter?
Click to expand...
No, but I have had one person before me there before. Maybe 50 in the whole store, sure, but that is multiple levels, and sells clothes, fishing gear, hunting gear, and other stuff as well as guns.
 
I’ve seen some dealers have some “online 4473”. Almost like a preapproval. Not sure of the logistics of it all. If you can plan ahead, run it a couple hours early go in the store bingo bango and pump people in and out.
 
Knuckle Dragger said:
GOAL is a fine organization and we're (Comm2A) proud to have partnered with them in many other areas. But they were not part of this action.
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If true, someone really needs to change the title of this thread and change or delete the first post in this thread. [thinking] Very misleading! [hmmm]
 
fshalor said:
The tone in this thread, and @Boston4567 's blogolog post made it seem like it was accepted instantly in the first interaction with Plaintiffs.

I will love to hear otherwise when reading the full transcript.
Click to expand...
I don't think a reasonable enough attempt was made to push back on it. Arguments have been made here that any further attempt to push would have done more harm than good, but I don't buy it. I think it would have been useful to push back to at least get the judge thinking about it.

I will admit, the court didn't have a properly developed record upon which to base a ruling to allow some stores to have more appointments per hour on the basis of square footage or any other fact-dependent metric. The judge probably would have needed floorplans and/or staffing of various shops on the record, for example, in order to avoid risking getting his ruling stayed. Getting those on the record would have taken additional time, and he wanted to rule immediately. Emergencies include emergency efforts to protect constitutional rights, after all.

So it's not likely he would have wavered from the limited appointments per hour on guns at the preliminary injunction stage. But maybe they could have gotten to five appointments per hour, which would be a 25% increase in throughput and could make a big difference to getting more gun shops "in the black". That could have been justified on the basis of the record, where I believe both sides agreed it takes about 10-15 minutes per appt (10 minutes per appt = 6 appts per hour, so 5/hour is conservative). And he could have made ammo a separate category of appointment, or allowed curbside pickup for ammo.

All that said, there's room for this stuff to be expanded upon later, as long as the argument gets made.
 
AFVet said:
Do you honestly, deep down in your heart and soul, believe that Faker and Heil Healy , are going to let any gun shops, ranges, or anything else 2A related, go full open in a month, 2 months, whenever, because he knows "it's the right time" ? They are going to keep their thumbs on everyone , until Comm 2A, GOAL, and the Fed Court knock them back again. Paul.
Click to expand...

Even in mASS, I can't see them making an order "everyone who is not a gun shop can open fully as of X/XX date." Anything relating to ANY "non-essential" business will be meted out equally.

fshalor said:
This isn't a win. I can't see them opening to 4/hr.

I'm sorry to detract from it. I do understand that it is a logistic step in a difficulr+-to-+move direction in the 4d chess game.

Should the state pay for Calendy pro plans for all gunshop employees?

calendly.com

Free Online Appointment Scheduling Software | Calendly

Calendly is the modern scheduling platform that makes “finding time” a breeze. When connecting is easy, your teams can get more done.
calendly.com calendly.com

The state just placed a burden on them, without justification. (or well, I guess this is a TRO , so technically the court did. )

Can anyone do the maths along side me? I can't envision a world where any brick and mortar could even pay the power bill on a diet of transfer fees only.

Taking a small shop example 1 owner 3 employees. Open 7 days a week. Normal daily peak hour serves 50 people. Conversion rate of 20%.

One employee is the gunsmith. Half the time he gets brought up from the dungeon, it's a turn-a-way.

So an hour block could have been:
10 transactions.
2 ffl transfer fees $60
2 ammo purchases for $200 (profit $50)
1 gunsmith sight install $75 minus the $30 to the employee and $20 for insurance and taxes on his overhead.
1 handgun sale Taurus Curve and a box of .380 $400 (profit $100)
1 used gun consignment sale (maybe $50 profit)
1 new rifle sale $1100 Ruger American Scout with goodies (profit $150)
1 pepper spray for a dudes GF $12 ($5 maybe )
1 fake turkey lawn ornament as a joke ($5)

This is a kicking business, employees make 20-35/hr (40 hr / week. 2 off per year paid. With health insurance)

Take that example hour. 20% conversion rate. 50 person flow.

If 20 of those hours happened a week, this shop would pull in $1.9 million a year net. $225k in profit. Call that a baseline.

Now yank that down to 4 /hour
Max: $85k (biggest transactions )
Min: -$211k (smallest transactions)

This was calculated assuming a 100% conversion rate per appointment (all appointments generate a sale. Doubtful. Should actually be between 50% and 75% conversion.)

Now If 2/3 employees were fired. Not including unemployment costs.

Max: $248k
Min: -$71k

That's a lot of risk.No way would I run a business with a potential swing into the red that far.

20 good hours per week at my initial rates would give me a few hundred K in profit, while paying for 3 employees. Business flow would have to cut that in half to see a loss.

Vs the 4apt/hour plan. Which offers no ability to maintain a floor on paper.
Click to expand...

The flip side, and let me say I concur with your assumptions, is that gun shops will likely be busy 4/hr almost EVERY hour they are open from now until the end of the month. For most gun shops, it's D-E-A-D outside of some hours on Fri and Sat. With a lot of people home-working and not-working I can see a very steady flow for a while.


Drix said:
Would it even be a 4s experience without jockeying for a cashier while your trying to check out before you get annoyed at the subtle stank of BO in the air?
Click to expand...

Hey, at least it isn't Marlborpoo Gun Show and Ass-travaganza. ROFL!!!!
 
Dennis in MA said:
The flip side, and let me say I concur with your assumptions, is that gun shops will likely be busy 4/hr almost EVERY hour they are open from now until the end of the month. For most gun shops, it's D-E-A-D outside of some hours on Fri and Sat. With a lot of people home-working and not-working I can see a very steady flow for a while.
Click to expand...
This - also, shops can expand their hours to open from 9am-9pm, and put their employees on staggered shifts to keep them busy. I know certain shops are doing this, based on their email newsletter.
 

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