CMP to Allow Optics for Service Rifle?

[Mountain]

While researching & sourcing components for the AR service rifle I have wanted to build, I ran across some buzz on a couple forums regarding a potential CMP rule change that would allow optics for service rifles. Checking the CMP forum, I noted the following reference to a note from CMP's COO regarding rule changes up for vote:


Service Rifle:
1) The only alibis that will be permitted are range alibis (no fault of the shooter).

2) Optics will be allowed on rifles that weigh 11.5 lbs., total with optic installed. Optics will only be allowed on the AR platform. The optic maximum magnification will be 4.5 power. There will not be a separate category for optical sighted ARs.

3) No weight limit on iron sighted, non-optical sighted ARs, i.e. you can shoot the current configured service rifle just as it is with no weight restrictions.

4) Only .223/5.56 NATO will be allowed for ARs, .308/7.62 NATO for M14 platforms, .308/7.62 NATO or .30/06 for M1 Garands.

5) M-4 type stocks will be allowed on the AR platforms.

If the rules pass the up-coming CMP Rules Committee meeting the new rules package will be implemented in the 2016 CMP Rules for Service Rifle and Service Pistol. Just a note a service rifle with no lead front or back weighs 10.9 pounds with carry handle installed. Remove the carry handle and install a 1-4.5 power scope and rings you get 11.25 lbs. With that said we set the weight limit with optics at 11.5 lbs. If you want to shoot with a scope you will not be able to lead the rifle. If you want to shoot with iron sights go as heavy as you like.

Best Regards,

Mark Johnson
Chief Operating Officer
Civilian Marksmanship Program

I was looking forward to a couple more matches this year and perhaps being more active next year. Overseas travel and important family events conflicted with some matches this year, so work & family trumped fun. Camp Perry is on my bucket list, so I'd like to improve. Not sure I like the rule change as I was looking forward to building skills with irons. I'm guessing the USMC is pushing for this, as supposedly they are training & qualifying solely with optics now. I still think there's value in practice with irons.

The folks at Compass Lake Engineering are now machining some space on their A4 uppers so that a carry handle / A4 combo can accommodate iron sights that have full range A2-like adjustment. They mentioned it was a common special request but now will be standard so that both good irons and optics can be accommodated via the A4 upper / carry handle combo. So now my build will be A4 based but ugh- I'd like to stick with irons while my eyes hold up.

 

[xtry51]

I think what you're seeing is simply the advancement of technology, and you can't stop that from entering competition. I mean as it is, there's tons of "cheating" going on with respect to iron sights. I.e. Weighting the rifle, shooting jackets, etc.

The current competition in no way replicates "real world" shooting. No one in battle is walking down range rolling a cart with their gear in it.

I do think it would make more sense to separate the two, irons and optics, into their own categories. The skills to use either are different.

On the military side you're going to continue to see adoption of only aim point/eotech/scope and discarding of iron sights completely. The aim point is probably the best single sight for teaching new people to shoot and hit something, coupled with ruggedness.

 

[MisterHappy]

People complained when people had to stop loading powder, and patched ball, too.



Tech marches on.

 

[Mountain]

Yeah, guess I'm getting closer to the "Get off my lawn!!!" stage.

But when I get there I guess I'll be able to see the target with a 4.5X optic.

 

[mac1911]

Yeah, guess I'm getting closer to the "Get off my lawn!!!" stage.

But when I get there I guess I'll be able to see the target with a 4.5X optic.

If you shoot service rifle the target is pretty big.
Now don't forget CMP has a modern military match also and there is no mention of optics ( at least I have not seen or heard) use there.
As far as shooting jackets, adding weight and such. Well there's really isn't any cheating in service rifle because the rifle can weigh as,much as you like as long as it's contained in the rifle.
My current service rifle set up is 15lbs.
The CMPs modern military puts the AR at 7 1/2 lbs limit.
I think what you will see is more guys participating and that's what the cmp wants.
I don't think a 4x optic will have a huge advantage vs a nice NM iron sight set up IF you can see! Unlike some of us.

Remember also the key to shooting service rifle is shooting small groups the best you can.
Some 4x optics will take up so much of the target you will just get hits on target.

So for me I wouldn't mind a old school match. With no more than a simple USMC shooting jacket from the early days. Every one issued ammo and iron sights.......
Just a note: if you look into the average age of some of the cmp competitors you might see why they will allow optics.....cuz we just can't see the sights no more.

Yes the times are a changing.
You don't see to many A2 rifles much anymore at the clubs. Also only a handful of people I see around me with NM rifles at the club
Much like the old timers who huffed and puffed about the mousefart guns starting to show up and win at Perry..... and unless I go to a NRA or CMP high power /service rifle match I hardly see any AR rifles.

So mountain build a A4 flat top and get the detach NM sight white oak offers. When the eyes go your ready for the 4x

 

[Rob Boudrie]

USPSA just introduced a provisional division "carry optics" for the same reason - advancement of technology.

It's common for sandbox operators to have ACOGs or EOTECHs on their modern sporting rifle, and I suspect it will be common for carry guns to have small heads up optics displays like the Jpoint or Doktor.

 

[mac1911]

USPSA just introduced a provisional division "carry optics" for the same reason - advancement of technology.

It's common for sandbox operators to have ACOGs or EOTECHs on their modern sporting rifle, and I suspect it will be common for carry guns to have small heads up optics displays like the Jpoint or Doktor.

Yet cmp/nra will DQ you if you show up to perry from a state like mass with your muzzle brake.
Or DQ you for a 10 round magazine because it doesn't fit the 20 round profile. Yet the advance in tech gets some wiggle room.
The rules are what they are.....solid fundementals will still have the advantage.

 

[mac1911]

Yet cmp/nra will DQ you if you show up to perry from a state like mass with your muzzle brake.
Or DQ you for a 10 round magazine because it doesn't fit the 20 round profile. Yet the advance in tech gets some wiggle room.
The rules are what they are.....solid fundementals will still have the advantage.

How do they plan on testing the mag X on the optics?
Seems the cmp can't just keep it simple and just create another class. Optic AR Service Rifle
With a 11.5lb rifle weight limit.

I also don't understand why they wouldn't have optics in the Mondern Military Class, after all the modern military is mostly optics now anyway.

I really don't think the military is really interested in creating marksmen anymore. As much as the thinking of our military and government in the past to have citizens trained and ready to shoot well if ever called upon.

Could you imagine our current congress passing a citizen or youth firearms training organization!

 

[Mountain]

So mountain build a A4 flat top and get the detach NM sight white oak offers. When the eyes go your ready for the 4x

I'm on it! Should have something put together before mid September. I plan to make the next Old Colony match and I'll bring it. I better practice Garand rapids- last time I dropped 60 points in rapids.

I'm certain my eyes will go eventually. They're bad for a few days after my monthly overseas trips, though mainly I just need reading glasses. As a pilot, Dad had glasses made with readers on top to see the close overhead cockpit controls. Nothing on the bottom- main instruments and outside no problem to see 20/20. RIP Dad, he would have been 75 today.

 

[mac1911]

I'm on it! Should have something put together before mid September. I plan to make the next Old Colony match and I'll bring it. I better practice Garand rapids- last time I dropped 60 points in rapids.

I'm certain my eyes will go eventually. They're bad for a few days after my monthly overseas trips, though mainly I just need reading glasses. As a pilot, Dad had glasses made with readers on top to see the close overhead cockpit controls. Nothing on the bottom- main instruments and outside no problem to see 20/20. RIP Dad, he would have been 75 today.

I plan on being there.....then it's all AR for me till next April . The Mondern Military Match at Pembroke is cluster **** . I shot high overall score but Franco denied me because I had a NM rifle.....even says NM rifles welcome on the flyer......and behold the power of the match director......

My eyes are just not what they used to be. On top of that I don't have a glasses set up that I can use standing with out canting the rifle.
Just not fun anymore. I don't like the champion or nobloch style shooting glasses much and they offer very little protection.
As for optics I wonder what would be good for service rifle?

Im do for a eye exam soon also.

 

[Mountain]

So who won after your DQ?

How does one stay legal for modern military?

 

[mac1911]

So who won after your DQ?

How does one stay legal for modern military?

Don't know Franco didn't enter the scores to cmp for that match. I learned not to care anymore.
I like to shoot and that's it.

Legal for modern military.....heck cmp can't even answer that. Basically for the AR government profile barrel and under 7 1/2 lbs and your good to go. The rest is a toss up and under the match directors decisions?

So if you find a government profile barrel with a target crown in 1/8 Wylde let me know.

 

[PatMcD]

I'm not a fan of this rule change, if it goes through. Scores WILL go up. No way around it.

I'm glad I legged out before this was discussed.

 

[xtry51]

I'm not a fan of this rule change, if it goes through. Scores WILL go up. No way around it.

I'm glad I legged out before this was discussed.

I agree, scores will absolutely go up.

 

[jasons]

I'm glad I legged out before this was discussed.

Me too...

I don't have an issue with allowing "service" optics, in other words the standard issue stuff that guys are training with, qualifying with, and using throughout their careers, or even something very similar to that. You want to shoot an ACOG and hold over? Knock yourself out.

My issue with this is that it looks like the CMP is going to start an equipment race by allowing civilian optics with all sorts of target-specific features that have little or nothing to do with what your average rifleman is running. Custom reticles, target turrets, adjustable parallax, etc., opens the door to gamesmanship in my opinion.

The whole point of EIC matches is that we're all shooting ~basically~ the same rifle, and it's one that's DNA comes directly from standard issue military lineage. This new rule, at least as it's currently being discussed, damages both of those precepts in a way that I think will ultimately detract from the sport.

I think what you will see is more guys participating and that's what the cmp wants.

We'll see. I'm not so sure personally. We may see some "retired" service rifle shooters pick them back up for shits and giggles, but many of those guys have moved onto match rifle in a pretty serious way and I doubt they'll give those up.

On the other hand, at some point 95% of the line will be shooting optics. Most of the people winning stuff will be shooting optics. For better or worse they'll become the defacto standard and people new to the sport with assume that they "need" a scope. That'll increase the cost of the (already expensive) sport which I think will keep some new shooters away. Ultimately we need to attract new shooters to keep service rifle alive, I don't think this will help in that regard.

 

[PatMcD]

It will keep older shooters (like myself) more competitive with the younger kids and their good eyes. Problem is, that doesn't bring new people into the sport: I'm already in.

Maybe I'll change one of my uppers over to a flat top and throw an optic on there. Or maybe I won't. Or maybe I'll switch back over to the M14.

 

[Mountain]

If they allow optics in JC Garand matches, I'm taking up archery.

 

[Jasper]

honestly I'm kind of excited for it

I stopped shooting the SR because I was fighting it every step of the way. ever since I had LASIK, I simply don't see things the way I used to. I shot the SR this past weekend @ Nashua, and actually shot decent (my average, basically)...offhand was about as expected...rapids were pretty good, but I had a LOT of off-call stuff @ 600 (which is where I had problems last time around too). I think the scope would put me right back in the game with a SR (not to worry, I won't be giving up the T2K's, love that gun too much)....but I'm afraid what a truly appropriate scope is going to cost.

1/4MOA, usable reticle, adjustable parallax, and REPEATABLE clicks. NightForce is honestly about it as far as I know for something that'll ALWAYS repeat back to "0" (meaning you won't be wanting to shoot a Leapers for XTC)....this by itself is going to double the cost of playing the game (the optic alone is probably going to be $1500)



I wouldnt worry about them adding optics to garands. they already have a match for that (vintage sniper).

 

[jasons]

1/4MOA, usable reticle, adjustable parallax, and REPEATABLE clicks. NightForce is honestly about it as far as I know for something that'll ALWAYS repeat back to "0" (meaning you won't be wanting to shoot a Leapers for XTC)....this by itself is going to double the cost of playing the game (the optic alone is probably going to be $1500)

I'm sure we'll have new shooters lined up down the block.


https://www.whiteoakarmament.com/xcart/pages.php?pageid=20&mode=preview

While I am still not sold on the idea of scopes for service rifle shooting, if it does come about, I think it is going to be a game changer. The only question is, will it be for the better. If a scope does end up increasing the scores of the top shooters, then it will take what is currently a very low cost game to compete in, and make it a lot more expensive if you want to compete at the top of the sport.

 

[mac1911]

I'm sure we'll have new shooters lined up down the block.


https://www.whiteoakarmament.com/xcart/pages.php?pageid=20&mode=preview

Almost every person coming down with ARs to the 2 ranges I belong are running optics. Are they good for service rifle? Range is cheap to many Swift,night force, US optics, leupold, trijicon. Oddly there are more nice optics up on top of just ok ARs it's a little bizzare to me.
As much as I have come to like service rifle I don't get out to XTC much at all. 1-3 times a year.
Legging out is nothing more than a day dream. Personally local matches cmp/nra are slowing going the way side. This year I have made it to all the cmp matches at one club and turn out has been low. Last week it was only me and the match director.
Shooting irons is getting harder for me. I can't find a lens/frame set up I can see through in sitting or standing and I don't like the lack of protection I feel with noblochs.
For me it's either a poormans match rifle set up next or a optics type match.
I see to many issues with positions and optics to bother with service rifle with optics.

As for drawing new shooters? I don't think much will draw more shooters. Young folks are hard to get. Locally of the regulars who come to the matches I'm the young guy at the cmp shoots @ 44 years.
old.
Next year might be my last year for service rifle up at Reading. I just don't have the time with the kids getting older and demanding more from me.
I already started building and planing a scoped AR build and been saving for a new scope. Figure a few prone matches here and there and local shoots from here on out.
I have a A4 stripped receiver to transfer to from my A2 if I decide to try a optic.
I'm not skilled enough to compete with the good shooters. So I just shoot because I like it.
Struggling with vision and special glasses is taking the fun out of it. Along with the monetary demands. I'm slowly making a shift to shooting cast bullets in my vintage rifles to play at 200 yard matches to keep it affordable. So as long as there are matches I can get to with what I have to shoot I will be there when I can.

Perry or CMP shooting park is another far off wish.
I'm curious to the attendance at Perry over the years and the average age of shooters.

I also wonder who has requested or pushed for these rule changes.
Is it the military? I was going to do the modern military mat,hes just for fun but unless I'm reading the rules wrong they are not really based on modern equipment? I showed up to a cmp MM match and was DQ'd because of my HBAR barrel and muzzle brake.....oh the joy.

 

[jasons]

Just to be clear, you can already shoot a service rifle with a scope in NRA matches (granted in a different category, but you can still shoot.) We're just talking about CMP here.

Are you talking about CMP leg matches or something else? The average age at every leg match I ever shot is well below 44. There are a ton of juniors and adults under 40 who shoot those matches, but we need more not less. It may sound cliche to say the young shooters are the future of the sport but cliche or not it's true.

As for the optics, the rule hasn't been published yet so we don't really know what existing optics will qualify. They're talking magnification limits, weight limits, etc. We'll have to wait and see.

 

[mac1911]

Legging out, NRA standings.....pretty much given up on all of it.
Just want to shoot now and have fun. I will make it to any match time allows.

Missed the state service rifle match due to baby sitter showing up late.

Might make it to the prone match if I have not missed it already.

For anyone wanting a good old wood and iron match come on down 9/13/15 as issued M1 match/clinic Pembroke Ma old colony club guns are all nice and 10 ring shooters...
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_ed7I-0dDxILTVBcW9nRHpkclk/view

 

[jasons]

Legging out, NRA standings.....pretty much given up on all of it.
Just want to shoot now and have fun. I will make it to any match time allows.

Missed the state service rifle match due to baby sitter showing up late.

Might make it to the prone match if I have not missed it already.

For anyone wanting a good old wood and iron match come on down 9/13/15 as issued M1 match/clinic Pembroke Ma old colony club guns are all nice and 10 ring shooters...
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_ed7I-0dDxILTVBcW9nRHpkclk/view

The midrange prone state championship match is this Sunday at Reading if we don't get rained out.

There's an 80 round across the course match at Pelham on the 13th that I'm already planning on going to. Thanks for the invite though, I do pull the Garand out once in a while so maybe some other time.

 

[mac1911]

The midrange prone state championship match is this Sunday at Reading if we don't get rained out.

There's an 80 round across the course match at Pelham on the 13th that I'm already planning on going to. Thanks for the invite though, I do pull the Garand out once in a while so maybe some other time.

I can say I won't get north of reading anytime soon. Planned on 3 trips to reading got in 1.
Had a feeling the prone match was sooner than later....ugghh

 

[jasons]

Had a feeling the prone match was sooner than later....ugghh

We have a few more. Maureen's 9/11 memorial match on 9/19, a 3x600 on 9/20, "sniper" match on 10/3. That'll pretty much be it for us this year.

 

[mac1911]

The midrange prone state championship match is this Sunday at Reading if we don't get rained out.

There's an 80 round across the course match at Pelham on the 13th that I'm already planning on going to. Thanks for the invite though, I do pull the Garand out once in a while so maybe some other time.

I shoot the M1 most during the summer as Pembroke is 15min from my house although I'm there longer with 12guys than shooting up at reading . I get out once a month that's it so I tend to go to matches. Problem I have with reading is the dates all fall on days I can't go! Might get there 10/3 if I get my new scope by then.
Still shooting my old leupold vxIII 2.5x8x32. Can't decide what to put up on top of my varmint/bench/prone AR? Looked through many scopes and I'm finding them with to busy with some of the reticles and the mil dots all over the place.
I would love to bring my 1903a4 clone but I'm not sure how that scope will behave beyond 200 yards. Have not really played with it to see how well she tracks.

 

[Mountain]

Here's my rapid fire (ish) target from breaking in the mutt service rifle I just assembled. A4 upper with carry handle just in case... 100 yds, SR-1 on cheap copy paper. Late, me in sun but targets well shaded.

Not the best vis condition, so eyes are not toast yet at almost 51 years . Meh for optics while my eyes hold up.

 

[jasons]

View attachment 145789

View attachment 145790

Here's my rapid fire (ish) target from breaking in the mutt service rifle I just assembled. A4 upper with carry handle just in case... 100 yds, SR-1 on cheap copy paper. Late, me in sun but targets well shaded.

Not the best vis condition, so eyes are not toast yet at almost 51 years . Meh for optics while my eyes hold up.

Is that one of those Australian rifles?

 

[Mountain]

Is that one of those Australian rifles?

No, but apparently my iPhone is Australian, lol.

 

[mac1911]

View attachment 145789

View attachment 145790

Here's my rapid fire (ish) target from breaking in the mutt service rifle I just assembled. A4 upper with carry handle just in case... 100 yds, SR-1 on cheap copy paper. Late, me in sun but targets well shaded.

Not the best vis condition, so eyes are not toast yet at almost 51 years . Meh for optics while my eyes hold up.

,off to a good start, I might just bring my A2 service rifle to Pembroke on the 13th. I rather shoot that than hear the whine about my muzzle brake on my Mondern Military A2.
Flyer says match rifles are welcome. Still not sure how that works out in the modern military match?
O well either way I'm shooting blind so matters not.