CMP to Allow Optics for Service Rifle?

[Mountain]

My club's annual bbq is the 13th. I really wanted to head to Pembroke and bring the Garand and AR but already told the family about the bbq. If I get a response from Chicopee I may go there on the 12th- they have a Garand shoot but I don't know if it's open.

 

[mac1911]

My club's annual bbq is the 13th. I really wanted to head to Pembroke and bring the Garand and AR but already told the family about the bbq. If I get a response from Chicopee I may go there on the 12th- they have a Garand shoot but I don't know if it's open.

That ok, I don't expect a good turn out anyway. Its been slow since you came up last.
Oh and my pool was doing great. Woke up Wednesday,and it's that pale green color again.
Been on top of the chlorine and PH. Filter changes etc. It's slowly getting darker green?

 

[Mountain]

How's the pool? Granted it's been years, but when pools really got away from me it would take a combo of properly working filtration first; then shock treatment with Cl and a floculant additive to help kick out the haze.

Shoot Hanson today?

I guess Oct will be last Pembroke Garand match. Pretty sure I can make that one.

 

[mac1911]

No hanson today. I only get out once a month , so I tend to shoot Pembroke for 200 yards.
Hanson is more or less just a cmp shoot. No match, scores are for your records only.
Good for just blasting or trying out a new rifle/load. Although they use the MR31 reduced target which is tough....

 

[xtry51]

I put cheating in quotes specifically because I was talking about the rules being crafted to allow certain technologies to advance scoring, that are not used by the military in battle. A "pure" service rifle competition would not allow items not issued to troops who carried those weapons in battle.

As long as technology advances, rules will be altered to allow advantages.

 

[jasons]

I put cheating in quotes specifically because I was talking about the rules being crafted to allow certain technologies to advance scoring, that are not used by the military in battle. A "pure" service rifle competition would not allow items not issued to troops who carried those weapons in battle.

As long as technology advances, rules will be altered to allow advantages.

The point of service rifle competition is to find the best marksman. The modifications to the rifles that are allowed are there, to the extent practical, to take the equipment out of the equation so that the focus can be on the marksman. Things like a floated barrel, a good trigger, etc. allow the marksman to reach his maximum potential without being held back by the limitations of the rifle.

Now the difference between service rifle and match rifle is that the basic form and function of the service rifle must be substantially similar to the actual standard issue military rifle that it's based on. Yes you can float the barrel but the exterior dimensions of the hand guard have to be the same. Yes you can tune up (or even replace) the trigger but it still has to make the trigger weight specification. The range and level of allowable modifications is self-limiting because there's that tie back to "standard issue." This evens the playing field so that we're focusing on finding the best marksman while using a fairly standardized platform, which is the whole point. (To me anyway.)

With that said, yes, technology advances and new recruits are now training with ACOGs. As such I have no problem with actual military issue optics (or reasonable facsimiles) being included in the rules. The issue I have with the leaked rule changes is that they're not limiting the optics to actual military issue (or reasonable facsimiles,) they're basically opening it up to pretty much any optic regardless of it's originally intended use. This means that purpose-built target optics with features that will never show up on a standard issue optic will not only be allowed but PREFERRED. That $1500+ optic mentioned above, though never issued to any service member (outside of perhaps the guys on the AMU,) will provide an undeniable advantage over someone shooting, for example, irons or an issued ACOG (or even a "tuned up" issued ACOG.) All of the sudden we're moving away from the focus on the individual marksman to a combined focus on the marksman and the equipment.

To me this signals a fundamental shift away from the whole point of service rifle. Maybe that's a good thing or maybe not, but in any case I think we're kidding ourselves to pretend that this shift is unimportant or that the consequences won't be significant. My guess is that the top shooters will move to optics (most likely expensive ones since they tend to be pretty well funded already,) and will continue to dominate as they have for years only more so. I think that the effect of that will be that a lot of guys who would normally get into the sport will look at what's "needed" (perception being reality) to play at that level and either decide not to participate or say "F it, I'll just shoot a match gun."

I'm in the second camp myself - if I'm going to shoot something that's really not a true service rifle anyway I might as well jump in with both feet and shoot the match gun. I don't see myself spending that kind of money on an optic just to shoot a few CMP matches a year and there are a lot more NRA matches on the calendar where I can shoot the match gun anyway.

I think the longer term effect will be that for ~most shooters~ the service rifle matches become more like games matches, which is already a trend that the CMP seems to be encouraging. Perhaps that's the CMP's real goal. I don't know and they haven't said.

 

[xtry51]

I agree completely that it will drive the cost of participation to be competitive up, and probably discourage people.

It definitely should have been limited to what was issued IMO.

 

[Road_Clam]

This optic debate clearly has pros and cons depending on your specific situation, the old skool shooters with healthy eyes are feeling threatened , and I get that, however I'm a new perspective HP shooter whom has been plagued with extreme nearsightness since I was born. I very much enjoy shooting irons, but I'm only good for 200 meters, then things get tough beyond that. At 600 yds forget it , while I can see the black on an standard MR target I can't verify my lane # board so out of respect to my potential competitors I'm concerned about cross shooting targets. I belong to PF&G and our HP match attendance is pretty poor. There is a lot of new shooters such as myself wanting to compete yet can't (or scared too) because of vision handicaps. This is where the proposed optic rule will hopefully fill up those empty lanes. I shoot against myself, and I very much enjoy and respect the interactions from the friendly master iron sight marksmen. So bottom line, don't feel threatened in any way if an old blind guy shows up with a 4x glassed AR service rifle , all's he want's to do is shoot and have some fun. I really would like to see some type of separate scoring system which would acknowledge the higher level of skill required in iron shooting. Maybe some type of handicap system... again it's a tough situation that's work in progress.

 

[PatMcD]

I don't think any of us are threatened by optics shooters.

The issue is with what some of us perceive as a watering down of the Distinguished Rifleman's badge.
I think a worse change was allowing someone to shoot in 6 EIC matches a year (5 plus Perry).


I think the real downside to this is that it just got very expensive to bring a "competitive" rifle to a match. Not to say that a standard $1000 Rock River, Bushmaster, etc. isn't fully capable of shooting a perfect score, because they certainly are. But, I know how shooters think, especially new ones; they are going to want the "best" rifle they can field. I see that "best" rifle as around the $3000 mark now.

 

[Admin]

I don't think any of us are threatened by optics shooters.

The issue is with what some of us perceive as a watering down of the Distinguished Rifleman's badge.
I think a worse change was allowing someone to shoot in 6 EIC matches a year (5 plus Perry).


I think the real downside to this is that it just got very expensive to bring a "competitive" rifle to a match. Not to say that a standard $1000 Rock River, Bushmaster, etc. isn't fully capable of shooting a perfect score, because they certainly are. But, I know how shooters think, especially new ones; they are going to want the "best" rifle they can field. I see that "best" rifle as around the $3000 mark now.

I agree 100%

Getting in to highpower before this was pricey, just in match grade ammo alone. I also didn't know they allow two more EIC matches a year either. Part of the pressure of shooting good enough for a leg is knowing you only have a few chances to do it each year. Basically EVERY OTHER match now is a leg match.

 

[Road_Clam]

I'm more of a scoped precision prone shooter, but recently really took an interest in high power. I never had any type of military fundamental marksmanship training so I'm trying to get up to speed. I built my own WOA rifle for about $900, excluding a few misc A2 parts I had kicking around. Already have some stuff to help with HP shooting, the only real item I need is a spotting scope stand, possibly a nice shooting jacket. I already handload 223 so I've got that aspect covered. In my situation even if the optic rule doesn't fly, I still plan on shooting high power type positions at my clubs 600 yd range during our 600 yd "open" type shoots. I voluenteered to work a local club HP match a few weeks ago and learned a lot of neat tricks. Got to know a great group of people who are excellent shooters !

 

[jasons]

I voluenteered to work a local club HP match a few weeks ago and learned a lot of neat tricks. Got to know a great group of people who are excellent shooters !

Pelham? I was probably there.

Don't count your vision out just yet. There are guys (I know one in particular who posts here sometimes, maybe he'll chime it) who were able to be very successful with huge uncorrected vision issues. A properly set up pair of Knobloch glasses (or similar) with a prescription from an optometrist who actually understands that shooting prescriptions are way different than "walking around" prescriptions will help immensely.

Cross-fires are tough with the way the number boards are set up at Pelham, the numbers are hard even for me to see with good vision. I know Bob is working on some improvements in that regard.

 

[Road_Clam]

Pelham? I was probably there.

Don't count your vision out just yet. There are guys (I know one in particular who posts here sometimes, maybe he'll chime it) who were able to be very successful with huge uncorrected vision issues. A properly set up pair of Knobloch glasses (or similar) with a prescription from an optometrist who actually understands that shooting prescriptions are way different than "walking around" prescriptions will help immensely.

Cross-fires are tough with the way the number boards are set up at Pelham, the numbers are hard even for me to see with good vision. I know Bob is working on some improvements in that regard.

Thanks for the tip, i'll research the Knobloch glasses and have a conversation with my optometrist. To put my poor vision into context, my eyes are so bad I can't even have LASIK performed as my corneas are extremely "malformed". Bob G is a great guy, he has been my HP "mentor" from the beginning, he helped me do my match SR build correct , keep it legal , and even gave me ballpark 77gr loads to get me going. I'm going to take Bob's HP seminar that he puts on over at Nashua F&G in April.

 

[jasons]

New rules: http://thecmp.org/2016-cmp-rifle-and-pistol-rule-changes/

It's basically match rifle light.... I don't know why anyone would bother with this non service service rifle when they can just shoot match rifles.....

 

[Road_Clam]

Had a chance yesterday to shoot my service rifle with the addition of a 1-4x Bushnell AR optic , and had no problems shooting at 600 . I can also keep shooting RH (which is unfortunately my weaker eye) and still clearly distinguish my lane board. I shot off a rest as i'm learning how this new to me MIL's scoped rifle shoots and testing a few different loads and learning MIL dopes (i'm much better with MOA). I shot mostly 8's and 9's got a few x's as well. I also weighed my rifle with the optic and no lead and i'm at exactly 11# so there's not much wiggle room to add any lead once you commit to optics. I'm looking forward to embarking in some matches next year. So next is practicing over the winter with the sling.

 

[Mountain]

So more than a year later...

I'm done with the damn scope, LOL. Vortex 1-4X. Difficult to find a scope position that gives me a good field of view from prone, sitting, and standing; a good cheek weld; and a natural and repeatable position for my eye. I've tried different mounts- the latest being the offset Vortex mount. Last straw was practice at the range yesterday- I shoot much better with irons, even at a relaxed pace. Last September shot very well with irons (2 points away from 2nd) in the regional CMP M16 match and then had trouble with the scope in XTC. When my eyes get so bad I can't use irons, I'll just shoot F-class.

Nothing wrong with the scope. I'll either mount on my .458 SOCOM or sell to fund other projects.

 

[mac1911]

So more than a year later...

I'm done with the damn scope, LOL. Vortex 1-4X. Difficult to find a scope position that gives me a good field of view from prone, sitting, and standing; a good cheek weld; and a natural and repeatable position for my eye. I've tried different mounts- the latest being the offset Vortex mount. Last straw was practice at the range yesterday- I shoot much better with irons, even at a relaxed pace. Last September shot very well with irons (2 points away from 2nd) in the regional CMP M16 match and then had trouble with the scope in XTC. When my eyes get so bad I can't use irons, I'll just shoot F-class.

Nothing wrong with the scope. I'll either mount on my .458 SOCOM or sell to fund other projects.

yeah I'm already progressing in that direction. Because of my limited range and travel time think F class tactical Rim fire...
I don't even want to get into being able to get a decent cheek weld. Even with irons on AR I still need to modify my cheek weld. If I plunk down and put the full weight of my head on the stock my eye is looking just above the charging handle.
I'm not so sure the optics rule helped cmp or not. I don't have a legal scope to try. I would most likely have the same problems.

 

[Admin]

Remember guys, the CMP opened the optics to keep the sport alive. We can bitch and complain all we want, when the numbers are getting lower and lower every year you're not going to have a lot of choices for HP service rifle matches. A 1-4x optic isn't going to help you shoot a 99 standing. It's not going to help with a wind call at 600 yards. What its going to do is make some people who are on the fence about competition give HP a try. The sport needs new blood desperately.

Not to mention it's called "service rifle" for a reason. Nobody in the Service uses irons anymore. If my old ass could get recalled back in to the Marines I'm not going to take a 20" A2 rifle with irons. I'm going to grab a service rifle with a 1-4 or 1-5x scope and go to work.

Embrace the change and hope it keeps across the course matches alive.

Of course this is just my .02 take it for what you paid for it.

 

[jasons]

Not to mention it's called "service rifle" for a reason. Nobody in the Service uses irons anymore.

They also don't use purpose-built big money target scopes with custom target reticles, unless of course they're on a well funded team competing to win at the nationals.

 

[evalance]

anyone pm me about CMP i'd like to explore my horizons

 

[Jasper]

So more than a year later...

I'm done with the damn scope, LOL. Vortex 1-4X. Difficult to find a scope position that gives me a good field of view from prone, sitting, and standing; a good cheek weld; and a natural and repeatable position for my eye. I've tried different mounts- the latest being the offset Vortex mount. Last straw was practice at the range yesterday- I shoot much better with irons, even at a relaxed pace. Last September shot very well with irons (2 points away from 2nd) in the regional CMP M16 match and then had trouble with the scope in XTC. When my eyes get so bad I can't use irons, I'll just shoot F-class.

Nothing wrong with the scope. I'll either mount on my .458 SOCOM or sell to fund other projects.

what mounts did you try? biggest issue for SR and a scope is mount height. i'm on my 3rd mount myself (and i dont even shoot SR full time anymore)...the vortex / larue mounts are too tall (1.5")...they'll work ok for standing and sitting, but WAY too high for prone, especially if you're running an A2 stock. I had good luck with the Keystone A5 mount (1.3"), and recently picked up one of Gieselle's "super-precision" NM mounts (also 1.3")

I also had issues with the scope initially, but unfortunately for me, it appears to be the reticle moving around in the scope (its going back to vortex for a check up)....have someone else shoot your rifle and make sure POI isnt shifting shot to shot (i was having 1.5-2.5moa swings)

 

[Fixxah]

Will my 6-24×50mm work?

 

[rogues]

Are the eye relief problems caused by the fact that we can't use adjustable stocks in MA? I'm looking into going the optics route (WOA) but the scope changes so many other things, esp if you are changing the stock (weight/balance) and could get expensive fast.

 

[PatMcD]

Will my 6-24×50mm work?

Maybe. It won't be legal though. 4.5x maximum power.

 

[Mountain]

.

 

[Mountain]

Resurrecting this one...

I still think I will keep the glass off of my service rifle, but for CMP Modern Military I thought it might be worth a shot to try again at the close up friendly distance of only (lol) 200 yards. Bought a decent mount and when the weather was too bad to even enjoy skiing I played around with position to find one that worked at least OK for all positions.

Off to the range today. No way to get there without 4x4- this is what the range road looks like after it has been plowed:

View attachment 194948
If one of my kids did that, I'd make him come back for a do-over.

So here's the Modern Military upper that I pieced together with a Criterion USGI spec 20" skinny barrel and parts from the bin:

View attachment 194949
Yep, that's the infernal 1X-4X Vortex on top, just waiting to mock me with frustrating shots at my 100 yard range.

Here's a 5-shot group off the bench with my 69 grain Nosler Comp reloads:

View attachment 194951
So not too bad for the first time checking out the self built upper. Seems like reasonable accuracy for the platform.

Because I had a bunch loaded up, thought I'd try some of my 80.5 grain Berger reloads:

View attachment 194952
Very promising! This barrel & upper combo seems to like the same chow that I feed by Compass Lake heavy bbl upper.

Awkward for me from the bench (edit), but I thought I'd try this upper with a sling. I would not mind prone in snow, but I wasn't going to do slush so I slinged up on the bench. POI definitely shifted downward. Straight downward at least, but ~4" down. After a couple sighting in shots, back to the SR-1 target:

View attachment 194953
Ugh... I was thinking I was using consistent technique, but those two high shots were the last two I fired. Most likely culprit is 'me', but I still think it's possible that I could be having fits with the scope. Next trip I'll mount the carry handle rear sight and try with and without sling. Hope to get it sorted out before the Modern Military match at Pembroke.

 

[mac1911]

I went to a web sling for my MM upper. I for what ever reason can find a more consistent sling tension some where less than tight vs the brown sling and the heavy NM free float.
I have not bothered trying a scope yet for service rifle shooting. only thing close to rules is a 2.5x8x32 leupold VXIII duplex reticle.

 

[PatMcD]

Forgot about this thread.

I'm going to officially be a scoped SR shooter this year.
Bought a Vortex from a buddy who upgraded to a March.

Anybody need an A2 upper with a 1/2×1/2?

 

[jasons]

Forgot about this thread.

I'm going to officially be a scoped SR shooter this year.
Bought a Vortex from a buddy who upgraded to a March.

Anybody need an A2 upper with a 1/2×1/2?

I thought you bought a match gun?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Mountain]

Forgot about this thread.

I'm going to officially be a scoped SR shooter this year.
Bought a Vortex from a buddy who upgraded to a March.

Anybody need an A2 upper with a 1/2×1/2?

Wow, the price on that March! Still cheaper than a boat and/or mistress, LOL.

One positive for the Vortex was that the come-ups were spot on. 200 to 300 to 600 yards were 100% predictable vs. match irons in terms of elevation and perfectly straight tracking. I practiced at 100 yards with predictable results, then had no issues at the actual CMP match. I think the new Vortex mount and better position is helping.

I may become a convert, eventually. Kinda takes out the light conditions variable that affects my view of the bull. Also overseas travel tends to leave my eyes tired for a couple days while I re-adjust from jet lag. I can drink coffee and be active to fight my way through the fatigue but there's no fooling my eyes. I'll be in Japan all week & might be interesting to take a trip to the range next Saturday & use the scope.