Cleveland cop shoots 12 year old who was holding an Airsoft gun

[Tango680]

Why did they get so close?

This.

Lets say he really had a firearm. Why the hell would they pull up relatively quickly and so close. They are asking to get popped and best case the proximity automatically escalates the situation. Maybe they are trying to put themselves between the kid and people...but that park looks empty. Also now the cops are saying they yelled put you hands up while rolling in. I think these people need better training.

 

[mav]

It wasn't that many years ago that police were brave men and women who risked their lives for public safety.

This. I can't believe all the BS in this thread from jackasses saying the shoot was justified. Since when is shooting a 12yo American boy carrying a toy justified? That cop was a god damn coward and deserves to live the rest of his life in shame and disgrace. Too afraid to do your job and maybe not go home at night? Quit! But don't for a second think you can justify shooting and killing a child with a toy.

So how many people (myself included) are changing their thoughts now that we've seen the video tape.

There was clearly no time for any orders. They simply drove up and murdered the kid. Done.

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Because it was easier to shoot him that way.

Cops don't train de-escalation any more. They just train to roll over any PERCEIVED threat.

DISGUSTING.

They better fix their training and perception of their own value to society real quick. Pretty soon it will be no lawyers, no justice system, no protests... just eye-for-an-eye, Old-Testament style punishment. Bundy ranch and Fergeson should be wake-up calls for everyone that things are changing and these actions by agents of the government will not be tolerated.

 

[hminsky]

That was insane. Talk about going Judge Dredd on someone. "I AM the law!"

 

[Dench]

-Is there a precedent in the US of young children (say, 12) shooting police? No.
-Were shots fired prior to the police showing up? No.

The only stupid game I saw in the released video were the police pulling up to a "person with a gun" point blank and then doing that they did.

The child was acting like a child. The police weren't exactly acting like assessts to their community. They acted like jumpy trigger men fighting their way through an ambush, as if they were surprised by what they pulled up to. It looks to be the definition of shoot 1st ask questions later.

If the US Army shot at every child who aimed a toy gun at them while deployed half of the military would be in prison.

If you can't provide a career worth of selfless service to your community while policing it, don't apply. there are many men who can handle the stress, risks and situations better.

It wasn't that many years ago that police were brave men and women who risked their lives for public safety.

Perfectly said.

 

[weekendracer]

-Is there a precedent in the US of young children (say, 12) shooting police? No.
-Were shots fired prior to the police showing up? No.

The only stupid game I saw in the released video were the police pulling up to a "person with a gun" point blank and then doing that they did.

The child was acting like a child. The police weren't exactly acting like assessts to their community. They acted like jumpy trigger men fighting their way through an ambush, as if they were surprised by what they pulled up to. It looks to be the definition of shoot 1st ask questions later.

If the US Army shot at every child who aimed a toy gun at them while deployed half of the military would be in prison.

If you can't provide a career worth of selfless service to your community while policing it, don't apply. there are many men who can handle the stress, risks and situations better.





Perfectly said.

Maybe not shooting at cops, but 12 yr olds with evil within them, yes:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitchell_Johnson_and_Andrew_Golden

edit: Coming out now, the cop that fired was a 8 month rookie. Figure 4-5 month academy, the guy was probably just getting out in the field.

 

[HuntMaine]

The tendency to blame the police is lost on me. They have a kid with a gun threatening people as far as they know. Looking at the video it appears the kid is drawing on them, it sucks but thats what appears that happened. Police are trained to react to that by taking out the threat and not dialogue in their head if they should use a taser or maybe just yell loudly. Its not like hes the first 12 yr.old to wield a real gun either http://m.on.aol.com/video/517930550/police-12-year-old-armed-robber-makes-getaway-on-bike


And yes its sucks it was a kid but in todays world the police are always on defense. I dont condone what happened and surely wouldn't choose to be a cop today

Sent from the blind

 

[Dadstoys]

So how many people (myself included) are changing their thoughts now that we've seen the video tape.

There was clearly no time for any orders. They simply drove up and murdered the kid. Done.

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Because it was easier to shoot him that way.

Cops don't train de-escalation any more. They just train to roll over any PERCEIVED threat.

DISGUSTING.

I'm still up in the air about it after seeing it.
He stood up , took a couple of steps toward them and reached for the butt of what we only know afterward was not a real gun, in his waist band.
In most LE encounters that's pretty much the formula for getting popped.
It surely does suck, but if he was 20 instead of 12 in identical circumstance I doubt the outrage would be there.
I wonder if it went down the same way in one of our living rooms at 3AM how long do you wait to shoot.

 

[namedpipes]

-Is there a precedent in the US of young children (say, 12) shooting police? No.
-Were shots fired prior to the police showing up? No.

The only stupid game I saw in the released video were the police pulling up to a "person with a gun" point blank and then doing that they did.

The child was acting like a child. The police weren't exactly acting like assessts to their community. They acted like jumpy trigger men fighting their way through an ambush, as if they were surprised by what they pulled up to. It looks to be the definition of shoot 1st ask questions later.

If the US Army shot at every child who aimed a toy gun at them while deployed half of the military would be in prison.

If you can't provide a career worth of selfless service to your community while policing it, don't apply. there are many men who can handle the stress, risks and situations better.

Perfectly said.

I find myself in complete agreement with you.

I'm still up in the air about it after seeing it.
He stood up , took a couple of steps toward them and reached for the butt of what we only know afterward was not a real gun, in his waist band.
In most LE encounters that's pretty much the formula for getting popped.
It surely does suck, but if he was 20 instead of 12 in identical circumstance I doubt the outrage would be there.
I wonder if it went down the same way in one of our living rooms at 3AM how long do you wait to shoot.

But it wasn't in a private home at 3am where you have an expectation of complete privacy.

It was in a public park where kids play and the drunkard (quite clear in the 911 recording) that called stated it was probably a kid with a toy gun.

Whether the operator screwed up in not communicating the info or the rookie screwed up by panicking doesn't really matter. The kid was killed because he acted exactly the way a kid would and btw doing exactly what many of US did when WE were 12.

 

[Bison]

Is it possible there is dash cam footage with audio to go with the already released video? The dash cam video might not show much, but it would certainly reveal what the police actually communicated as they arrived. My gut feeling is the PO was yelling and was unintelligible or his command directly led to the kid reaching for the gun. It looks like his command might have been something like "DO YOU HAVE A GUN?!!!!!" The kids thinks sure and goes to show it to the PO.

 

[Dadstoys]

I find myself in complete agreement with you.




But it wasn't in a private home at 3am where you have an expectation of complete privacy.

It was in a public park where kids play and the drunkard (quite clear in the 911 recording) that called stated it was probably a kid with a toy gun.

Whether the operator screwed up in not communicating the info or the rookie screwed up by panicking doesn't really matter. The kid was killed because he acted exactly the way a kid would and btw doing exactly what many of US did when WE were 12.

I don't ever recall stepping towards a police officer and reaching for a toy gun in my waistband.
That's what I saw in the video.
We know it's a toy now. But then again on Monday morning we're all the smartest guys in sports.
The hood is it's own world and like I posted previously, I do know an LEO that got shot right in the face costing him an eye by a 10 year old in a crack house.
Did the rookie mess up?
I don't know, maybe.
Go into some of these crapholes and assume that some 12 ,13 ,14 year old won't shoot your ass just as fast if not faster that a 25 year old and your wife might be collecting your insurance.

 

[drgrant]

You might want to change the thread title. When I just glanced at it I was thinking "WTF, now cops are teasing autistic kids by shooting them with airsoft guns?"

 

[namedpipes]

I don't ever recall stepping towards a police officer and reaching for a toy gun in my waistband.
That's what I saw in the video.
We know it's a toy now. But then again on Monday morning we're all the smartest guys in sports.
The hood is it's own world and like I posted previously, I do know an LEO that got shot right in the face costing him an eye by a 10 year old in a crack house.
Did the rookie mess up?
I don't know, maybe.
Go into some of these crapholes and assume that some 12 ,13 ,14 year old won't shoot your ass just as fast if not faster that a 25 year old and your wife might be collecting your insurance.

I have no desire to serve as a cop. MY duty is to my family.

Sucks that it is a hard job, but it is what it is. Quit?

Bottom line is the kid is dead because an leo panicked over kids being kids. Probably, anyway.

 

[glockstones]

I can't find the article but in the initial interview with the chief he even said they would be looking Into why the pulled up right on top of the kid before immediately opening fire on him. The truth is this type of behavior is not going anywhere fast. Since last march over 1,200 people have been shot by police and the numbers just keep climbing. Since our wonderful war on terror has started you are 8 times more likely as an American to be killed by police than a terrorist in America. I am an electrician as an occupation, before the government would allow me permission to install wires in buildings I had to receive 8,000 hours in the field and 4 years of night schooling before passing a test. In alittle over 3 months you can receive a badge a gun and no clue the laws or what to do and be set out to do whatever. Shooting kids throwing flash bangs into cribs this is all old news the media wont even tell 1% of the story behind any of this. The reason you only hear about black americans being killed by white cops is because the government wants to maintain that racial division that it sparks. The government fears the day that we stop falling for this whites vs Mexican immigrants or whites vs blacks and all together focus on the real threat to a peaceful life, which is the government itself. It is a shame that so many more will have to die in order for people to maybe start to pay attention.

 

[Dench]

http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/...an-police-fired-just-85-bullets-total-in-2011

German police officers fired a total of 85 bullets in 2011, 49 of which were warning shots, the German publication Der Spiegel reported. Officers fired 36 times at people, killing six and injuring 15.

Followed by such classics as

84 shots were fired at one murder suspect in Harlem, and another 90 at an unarmed man in Los Angeles.

That's ****ed up. Even when you screw with the numbers, adjust per capita and look at it again, it's disgusting and not acceptable.

 

[gearjunky13]

Alright am i the only dumb ass who read the head line as if a cop actual shot the 12 year old with the air soft gun, my first thought was damn police budgit must be tight, lol

actualy thought from the headline some kid fooling around had his air soft gun taken away then the cop shot him with it, but things were a bit more serious then that i see,

 

[Palladin]

this is gas on the fire....

http://www.cnn.com/2014/12/04/justice/cleveland-police-officer-timothy-loehmann/index.html?hpt=hp_t4

 

[Bonesinium]

"a pattern of lack of maturity, indiscretion and not following instructions," a "dangerous loss of composure during live range training" and an "inability to manage personal stress."

"I do not believe time, nor training, will be able to change or correct these deficiencies," Independence Deputy Chief Jim Polak wrote in a November 2012 memo.


A Cleveland Police spokesman said Thursday that during a background check before hiring Loehmann, his department didn't review the officer's personnel file from Independence

Sadly, we see this stuff more often then we should. Cop quits from some department only to be hired at another department, and the hiring department doesn't bother to find out why the person quit. It is a systematic failure that can only be attributed to willful ignorance, incompetence, carelessness, or the worse reason, intentional disregard. Disgusting.

 

[exojam]

City is saying it is the kids fault he is dead.

http://dailycaller.com/2015/03/01/c...-old-boy-shot-by-police-caused-his-own-death/

 

[Bonesinium]

The city also claimed to have had no knowledge that the cop who shot Rice, 26-year-old Timothy Loehmann, had resigned from a previous police job because of poor performance and had failed a cognitive exam for a job as a sheriff’s deputy,

So either corrupt, incompetent, or both.

 

[exojam]

After reading the below section of the article I just do not understand how he was even a cop.

"The city also denies having any knowledge about Loehmann’s poor work history and his failure to get police jobs as smaller departments. Loehmann was hired by Cleveland police last March.

But before that, he resigned from the Independence, Ohio police department after he received a “dismal” job performance rating in Nov. 2012. In Sept. 2013, he also failed the Cuyahoga County Sheriff’s Department’s cognitive written exam, scoring 46 percent out of the 70 percent needed to pass."

 

[Bonesinium]

Because of what I said above.

 

[Bonesinium]

Prosecutor ignores judge who rules probable cause for murder charge

Judge Ronald Adrine of the Cleveland municipal court said there were grounds to prosecute officer Timothy Loehmann with murder, manslaughter, reckless homicide and negligent homicide.

Adrine also found there was probable cause for a charge of negligent homicide against officer Frank Garmback, Loehmann’s partner, who was present when Tamir was shot at a park on 22 November while holding a pellet gun.

The judge’s recommendation, however, was brushed aside by Timothy McGinty, the Cuyahoga County prosecutor, who pledged to proceed as planned with having a grand jury decide on whether the officers should be charged.

“State law does provide an avenue for a private citizen having knowledge of facts to initiate the criminal process,” Adrine wrote in his order, “the police are public servants and not the public’s master”.

Court Ruling

 

[Hoover]

The judge is elected, that may influence this depending on his district.

How does the judge find probable cause for the other cop? That sounds like complete bs.

This is a going no where. Sad the kid is dead but pointing a fake gun at a cop or other armed person is a foolish thing that can get you killed ex tamir.

 

[Bonesinium]

Both cops let the kid bleed out. Never even attempted to render aid.

I never saw him point it at the cops in the video, and he was shot almost immediately.


But we can ignore that. How about take a look at the cops record? This is some fun reading.

Independence Police Department recommendation for separation

He was being fired from his previous department for emotional immaturity, circumvention of directions, and lack of commitment.

 

[exojam]

That kid did not point anything at them and was dead two seconds after their doors opened.

 

[jkelly1229]

Honestly good this stuff needs to end the kids need to be taught there are reprocussions for doing dumb stuff

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After reading the below section of the article I just do not understand how he was even a cop.

"The city also denies having any knowledge about Loehmann’s poor work history and his failure to get police jobs as smaller departments. Loehmann was hired by Cleveland police last March.

But before that, he resigned from the Independence, Ohio police department after he received a “dismal” job performance rating in Nov. 2012. In Sept. 2013, he also failed the Cuyahoga County Sheriff’s Department’s cognitive written exam, scoring 46 percent out of the 70 percent needed to pass."

Don't make fun of the delivery guy because he can't read

 

[Bonesinium]

Totally agree. Kids should be summarily killed when they do dumb things. It's really the only thing that will teach them.

 

[exojam]

Honestly good this stuff needs to end the kids need to be taught there are reprocussions for doing dumb stuff

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Don't make fun of the delivery guy because he can't read

Where is that "not sure if serious" thing when you need it? Or my sarcasm meter is off, since I really cannot believe you think the kid deserved to be murdered.

 

[OfficerObie59]

Prosecutor ignores judge who rules probable cause for murder charge

Court Ruling

What this judge did is borderline unethical. He essentially wrote an advisory opinion, one that is likely to prejudice any subsequent grand jury or fact finder.

There's a reason advisory opinions are usually very limited in state courts, and are unconstitutional on the federal level. And there's a reason SCOTUS nominees punt when asked how they'd rule in a particular case. When you as a judge to rule on a case that doesn't exist, you predispose later judges to make a similar decision and telegraph your own predispositions to the case should it actually come before you, despite what additional evidence you may or may not have. The law professor quotes at the end of this article was spot on in his warning that this is a dangerous precedent.

http://news.yahoo.com/judge-rules-theres-evidence-charge-cleveland-officers-205458759.html

 

[browncoat]

What this judge did is borderline unethical. He essentially wrote an advisory opinion, one that is likely to prejudice any subsequent grand jury or fact finder.

There's a reason advisory opinions are usually very limited in state courts, and are unconstitutional on the federal level. And there's a reason SCOTUS nominees punt when asked how they'd rule in a particular case. When you as a judge to rule on a case that doesn't exist, you predispose later judges to make a similar decision and telegraph your own predispositions to the case should it actually come before you, despite what additional evidence you may or may not have. The law professor quotes at the end of this article was spot on in his warning that this is a dangerous precedent.

http://news.yahoo.com/judge-rules-theres-evidence-charge-cleveland-officers-205458759.html

Well at least it's less unethical than what the officers did.

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