I don't think ending road details for cops will change anything, as has already been stated the people hired to flag will be paid almost as much as the cop, also I'm sure the flaggers will get some sort of benefits, i.e., health insurance, vacation time, maybe even a pension plan. Not to mention the education and training that I'm certain will be required in order to become a certified traffic flagger. It seems to me this is just away for Deval and his machine to create more do-nothing jobs for their cronies, and the cost to the consumer/taxpayer will be the same if not greater. Just my .02
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- Thread starter Dick Manley
- Start date
![[rolleyes]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/042.gif "Roll Eyes [rolleyes]")
Wasted money is wasted money and it's false logic to not solve one problem because another exists.
No offense to the LEO's here but as a professional in the private sector, I have no such guaranteed income. The whole paid detail thing is as egregious a union scam as there is.
I guess the only good thing about having the cops at construction sites is that they're not at speed traps stopping me going to fast on Route 3 in the morning ![[wink]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/002.gif "Wink [wink]")
I guess the only good thing about having the cops at construction sites is that they're not at speed traps stopping me going to fast on Route 3 in the morning
Ugh, don't get me started. The irony here is there are never speed traps on Rt 3S in the morning and never speed traps on Rt 3N in the evening. Yet everyone is breaking the speed limit assuming traffic allows it. I do occasionally see speed traps on the opposite side of traffic.
This tells me that speed enforcement is not done in the name of safety and cops won't do it at these hours (rush hour should be the most dangerous time to speed).
Which, with the exception of state construction jobs, will all come out of the pockets of the company who is doing the construction, not the tax payers.
I was once involved in a major car accident in Cambridge. It was at an intersection between a state highway and city street so the state and city cops both tried to pass the buck to the other guy. I finally flagged down a state trooper who promptly responded "I can't help you. I'm on my way to a detail"
The money can be better spent elsewhere in the LE community. If it doesn't end up going there then that sucks but that's no reason not to end this practice.
BTW: As for that cop who caught the guy at the rest stop: If this isn't the best defense against gun control, I don't know what is:
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I doubt Uhaul will be able to pull it off. Even though he is a hack
just like the other political players in this state, he doesn't have
enough hack points to overcome the deluge of opposition from the
unions. Every governor/pol that attempted to address this issue
before U-haul has failed, and I don't see how it will be any different
now.
I have to partially agree with Ripach- if these flagmen are going to
be STATE employees, we've just traded one expensive problem
for a slightly less expensive problem. I'm sure they would set up a
turnpike-like hack system, with nice pensions, etc.... like any
other mismanaged state agency.
If the state wants to do this right they MIGHT have a certification
program, and then the construction company guys can just do
it. They can make their newbs flagmen or whatever.
A lot depends on how this gets implemented, etc. If they
dumped police AND flagmen on the jobs that didn't need it
them at all, that'd probably save the most money. But knowing
this state, that would never happen, either. I see lots of
intermittent construction where the officer never has to do
anything regarding the traffic because whever the work is, is
not really in the way. For instance, why does a cop need to be
standing around to monitor a verizon van thats parked on the
sidewalk and isn't in the road, for instance. It seems to me a lot
of these details are pointless, even to pay flagmen on them.
-Mike
just like the other political players in this state, he doesn't have
enough hack points to overcome the deluge of opposition from the
unions. Every governor/pol that attempted to address this issue
before U-haul has failed, and I don't see how it will be any different
now.
I have to partially agree with Ripach- if these flagmen are going to
be STATE employees, we've just traded one expensive problem
for a slightly less expensive problem. I'm sure they would set up a
turnpike-like hack system, with nice pensions, etc.... like any
other mismanaged state agency.
If the state wants to do this right they MIGHT have a certification
program, and then the construction company guys can just do
it. They can make their newbs flagmen or whatever.
A lot depends on how this gets implemented, etc. If they
dumped police AND flagmen on the jobs that didn't need it
them at all, that'd probably save the most money. But knowing
this state, that would never happen, either. I see lots of
intermittent construction where the officer never has to do
anything regarding the traffic because whever the work is, is
not really in the way. For instance, why does a cop need to be
standing around to monitor a verizon van thats parked on the
sidewalk and isn't in the road, for instance. It seems to me a lot
of these details are pointless, even to pay flagmen on them.
-Mike
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NES Member
You mean I actually agree with Devil Patrick? this is the second time. "state prison officials to start deportations" was the only other time.
Granted I am very pro police, but I have no idea why this state ever did this in the first place. Its a $10hr job that anyone with a fairly clean record should have the right to apply to.
Granted I am very pro police, but I have no idea why this state ever did this in the first place. Its a $10hr job that anyone with a fairly clean record should have the right to apply to.
Political favor...
![[thinking]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/010.gif "Thinking [thinking]")
The other issue (besides mandating a trained LEO waste their training directing traffic) is that they have a minimum amount of hours they get paid. I think it is 4 hours. Even if they work for 5 minutes. They show up, they get paid. A regular hourly employee will likely only get paid for the time spent on the job. Even if they get $37 a hour it will be a huge savings.
I don't have a huge problem with it. The details help LEOs make a GOOD living, as opposed to an ALRIGHT living most would make without them. Most of them do deserve to make a GOOD living and this allows them to. Probably keeps a lot of good officers on the job when without the details they can make more money doing other things.
Then again, if they got paid on merit and not just experience and test scores then the good ones would already make a GOOD living and they wouldn't need the details. But union shops are whole nuther discussion.
I don't have a huge problem with it. The details help LEOs make a GOOD living, as opposed to an ALRIGHT living most would make without them. Most of them do deserve to make a GOOD living and this allows them to. Probably keeps a lot of good officers on the job when without the details they can make more money doing other things.
Then again, if they got paid on merit and not just experience and test scores then the good ones would already make a GOOD living and they wouldn't need the details. But union shops are whole nuther discussion.
Just like every Pennsylvania governor says he'll get rid of the state owned liquor stores. Then he gets into office and the United Food and Commercial Workers Union says, uh, no you won't.
So, should I start a flagger company now? Seriously though, flaggers up here in Maine get $8-$9 bucks an hour(and all the head cases they can handle).
Another thing that bugs the living shit outta me up here is they actually employ and PAY dept of transportation workers to pick up trash along the highways instead of using prisoners(like in Massachusetts), talk about a scam!
Another thing that bugs the living shit outta me up here is they actually employ and PAY dept of transportation workers to pick up trash along the highways instead of using prisoners(like in Massachusetts), talk about a scam!
Police Details
Whether you agree with police directing traffic at construction sites or not, to stop the practice in Mass. is nearly impossible. Many officers went through 22 weeks of training to be police because of the chance to earn extra money on their "off-time" working details. The law states that only law enforcement officers or fire men at a fire scene can direct vehicles into other lanes of traffic and make certain turns, etc. so the State Legislature would have to change the law.
The unions would be against stopping details obviously but so would police chiefs as they would now get fewer applicants because there were no details and now officers would take on second jobs, making them unavaiable for emergency "fills".
An ordinary flagperson would probably make about $10-$12 per hour but the company that provides them has to probably charge $35-$40 for them to make money and cover the cost of uniforms, equipment, training, and liability insurance. So the savings would really not be there and many contractors like the fact that police officers with cruisers have first aid kits and can get assistance to the scene quickly if an emergency(i.e.ruptured gas line) occurs.
Unfortunately, the general public sees some law enforcement officers standing at a site "looking in the hole" not paying attention to traffic and some actually sleeping in their cars which should be addressed by their superiors.
There have been many instances in the Boston area and the SE Mass area where detail officers have caught serious criminals including bank robbers because they were working a detail and heard a broadcast on their radios.
commandcaddy
Whether you agree with police directing traffic at construction sites or not, to stop the practice in Mass. is nearly impossible. Many officers went through 22 weeks of training to be police because of the chance to earn extra money on their "off-time" working details. The law states that only law enforcement officers or fire men at a fire scene can direct vehicles into other lanes of traffic and make certain turns, etc. so the State Legislature would have to change the law.
The unions would be against stopping details obviously but so would police chiefs as they would now get fewer applicants because there were no details and now officers would take on second jobs, making them unavaiable for emergency "fills".
An ordinary flagperson would probably make about $10-$12 per hour but the company that provides them has to probably charge $35-$40 for them to make money and cover the cost of uniforms, equipment, training, and liability insurance. So the savings would really not be there and many contractors like the fact that police officers with cruisers have first aid kits and can get assistance to the scene quickly if an emergency(i.e.ruptured gas line) occurs.
Unfortunately, the general public sees some law enforcement officers standing at a site "looking in the hole" not paying attention to traffic and some actually sleeping in their cars which should be addressed by their superiors.
There have been many instances in the Boston area and the SE Mass area where detail officers have caught serious criminals including bank robbers because they were working a detail and heard a broadcast on their radios.
commandcaddy
Commandcaddy,
we all know the LEO's depend on this income. That's never been an issue in my book. I would rather pay them the OT doing POLICE work.
IF the state wanted to they could easily cap the flag waivers to $15 bucks an hour.
we all know the LEO's depend on this income. That's never been an issue in my book. I would rather pay them the OT doing POLICE work.
IF the state wanted to they could easily cap the flag waivers to $15 bucks an hour.
Not quite. While there are lots of occasions in which a man-on-detail is able to be johnny-on-the-spot for an incident, in the Zapp case, the Trooper who made the arrest had been working in Boston, and he was on his way home when he encountered the bad guy (in the Bridgewater BK).
Those people should NOT be policemen.
People who really want to be police because they want to help their community KNOW that the pay sucks and the respect sucks and the job sucks....
...but they do it anyway.
Ohh...careful now... I think I must have stepped into my little dream world for a second.
I've never thought about this as a big issue, just assumed that the construction companies were charged back for the time by the state or town.
Many times I've thought to myself "Boy, is this company getting screwed!"
Many times I've thought to myself "Boy, is this company getting screwed!"
Bag the details and the personal vehicles too, while you're at it.
No excuse for either, except for a perk of the job paid for by everyone.
No excuse for either, except for a perk of the job paid for by everyone.
I think this is the crux of it. Did these guys support him, and if so, why?
Here's the T&G article, with comments section at end:
Patrick says he’ll consider cutting back police details
You'd think they'd learn:
Police PACs in media blitz Ads for endorsed candidates
Looks like it is going to get interesting.
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My friend was building his house in Westboro and he was getting a delivery of wood.He lives way off any main st,but,the wood truck was going to be in the street while backed up offloading wood.20 min delivery my buddy had to pay like $200 bucks...
This whole detail thing is a scam,if a cop can't make ends meet on his regular salary he needs to do like the rest of us commoners and get into a differant line of work.
FWIW,I drive every day and personally I have NEVER seen a cop on detail sitting in his car..they are ALWAYS directing traffic if the construction dictates it.I have seen numerous police details sitting in the car when the contruction is off the road and no hazard exists for drivers,which is definately a scam.
If the cops are so hard up for overtime,why don't they make it doing police work instead of directing traffic ? If cops need overtime,they should patrol Dorchester or Mattapan,actually make a differance instead of taking the easy way out.Use the money saved on details by hiring new cops or something,ya know,like Deval promised before his coronation.
This whole detail thing is a scam,if a cop can't make ends meet on his regular salary he needs to do like the rest of us commoners and get into a differant line of work.
FWIW,I drive every day and personally I have NEVER seen a cop on detail sitting in his car..they are ALWAYS directing traffic if the construction dictates it.I have seen numerous police details sitting in the car when the contruction is off the road and no hazard exists for drivers,which is definately a scam.
If the cops are so hard up for overtime,why don't they make it doing police work instead of directing traffic ? If cops need overtime,they should patrol Dorchester or Mattapan,actually make a differance instead of taking the easy way out.Use the money saved on details by hiring new cops or something,ya know,like Deval promised before his coronation.
J
Jose
Quit whining. Your highway worker death and accident rate is no better than any place else and nowhere else do cops get to sit on their ass in a car watching workers fix potholes.
I kinda feel a lot of you are missing the point. Me, my father and just about every other officer depends on this money to survive. Tell me what $37,000 a year will get you? Not much. Yes you can argue that if the money sucks get a different job. But we all do it FOR the job. The money becomes a dependance after a while. Yes I'm a local not State, I think its a little crazy how state can sit in thier cars and sleep while us locals stand in the rain, snow, cold, and heat. Beleive it or not its actually pretty damn dangerous to stand in the road at details Ive been hit once (nothing major but I was still hit) and almost hit countless times. How about you stand in the road and deal with a buch of a**h***s who do not pay attention to the road. As far as saving money that is total Bullshit. The only time the state pays for the detail, is when the state is working the project. For the most part if the construction is being done by a private company then the private company must foot the bill for the detail NOT the state. As far as people telling me to stop whinning, go pound sand. Im 100% sure if some one came along and told you that you are taking a pay cut and you can do nothing about it, you would be pretty pissed too. I may not have a family at this point but many others do and they depend on this overtime money so think about that. Sorry for the rant but many of you (I mean this to no offense) are not on the job and truthfully have no idea what its like. Everyone has a "friend or a "friend of a friend" but untill you put on the uniform and deal with everything this job entails you really dont "know".
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Are you saying that the privagte company does not factor in details costs when determining the price at which they can bid jobs?
I favor removal of detail extortion. I use the term "extortion" because, more often than not, the buyer of the service is making the purchase only under threat of force.
Perhaps the solution is a "notice period" equal to the remaining time on police contracts, so they can negotiate knowing that the ability to extort detail fees is no longer a job benefit. If I were in the LEO business, I'd consider it a major change in working conditions if a lucrative market for my services, provided by state policy, were removed from my benefit package outside the negotiation cycle.
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I think people have gotten the point and noted that the system is fundementally broken if you have to rely on what amounts to a bonus to survive. The point everyone is making is that these details introduce obfuscation into your pay and the costs of your job to taxpayers (yes, the details do eventually cost taxpayers). Don't forget that you retire into a pension that's a hell of a lot better than anyone in the private sector gets. Try dealing with your job being outsourced to China.
As for being hit and almost hit, I hope you're not one of those detail cops who stand in such a place that it becomes hard to drive by the cones. I've seen this many times. If you want to solve the problem of people not paying attention, start ticketing for every infraction but speeding. I bet that will solve things very quickly.
When I first got out of school I was making about that much and thought I was rich. Brand new motorcycle, new (to me) car, luxury apartment on a hill overlooking most of the town, new top of the line gaming computer, and that was after furnishing the apartment.
And that wasn't even living off of credit cards either. In fact I paid off both vehicles and student loans months if not years early and never carried a balance on my CCs.
So I wonder just how you are living that you need even more "just to survive".
When did you graduate high school exactly?
Dick is right, $37k isn't enough to raise kids, save for retirement and buy a house in MA. Not even close. Cops absolutely deserve more than that but it doesn't justify the detail scam.
