CCW cap and ball revolver "Antique Exemption"

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I saw the following in the NH laws sticky that Derek posted. It comes after the regulations and licensing regarding concealed carry in NH:

"Antiques, defined as any handgun "utilizing an early type of ignition," such as flintlocks, percussion and pin fires, are exempt from the above regulations. No handgun which utilizes centerfire or rimfire cartridges will be considered an antique."

So, I was wondering if it would be legal to carry a concealed antique revolver such as an 1860 Army or something that is percussion activated, without a NH LTC.
 
A non-resident must have a permit from their state or another state, and then purchase a NH license, which is $100.00 now. Some people carry and shoot single action revolvers (they must be cap and ball/percussing ignited to comply with this law) very well. This law might be worthy of note to that person who may not be in NH very often, is on a tight budget, does not already possess an LTC in their own state or another state, etc.

For just about the the cost of the non-res licensing, plus the cost of a licence from some other states like MA, you could have a cap and ball revolver shipped to your door, depending on what state you live in.

Just figured it might be useful to point out.
 
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As a new resident, I encourage all non-residents to send NH $100 every four years.

How many cops are going to understand the vagaries of this "loophole" in the NH law? If you get pulled over with a "loaded gun" in your car and no valid permit, even though you are in the right and the antique is exempt, you can expect it will be a while before you can go on your way. If you already have a permit from any other state, and plan to spend any amount of time in NH, I would think the $25/year would be worthwhile as insurance against any sort of hassle while carrying. Plus you get a nice plastic ID card (locals get a tissue-thin receipt printed on recycled paper). It's not like NH is asking for fingerprints, to my knowledge, they don't even check your references when applying as a non-resident.

While you don't need a Pistol & Revolver permit to conceal an antique-class pistol in NH, it certainly won't do any harm.
 
How many cops are going to understand the vagaries of this "loophole" in the NH law?

Its not a loophole. iIts the law. The law is written in a way so as to protect the legality of carrying this type of weapon. For you to call it a loophole, is a little bit of a stretch.

People can, and should, practice their rights within the confines of the law. And, what I mentioned in the OP, is within the confines of the law. It is every bit as legal as carrying openly. You may disagree with carrying openly, as well. However, it is perfectly legal. It is legal for a reason. And, it is something that you are sure to lose the right to do, if you don't practice it.

You don't need to look very far south to see what it is like to lose gun rights that the majority isn't interested in keeping.

And, I also mentioned that this would be beneficial to people who do not have a permit from another state and cannot afford to do so. I think you should consider that as well.
 
Its not a loophole. iIts the law. The law is written in a way so as to protect the legality of carrying this type of weapon. For you to call it a loophole, is a little bit of a stretch.

People can, and should, practice their rights within the confines of the law. And, what I mentioned in the OP, is within the confines of the law. It is every bit as legal as carrying openly. You may disagree with carrying openly, as well. However, it is perfectly legal. It is legal for a reason. And, it is something that you are sure to lose the right to do, if you don't practice it.

You don't need to look very far south to see what it is like to lose gun rights that the majority isn't interested in keeping.

And, I also mentioned that this would be beneficial to people who do not have a permit from another state and cannot afford to do so. I think you should consider that as well.

I think you are hung up on semantics here. As you well know, NH law does not permit you to carry a loaded handgun in your vehicle unless you have a license. This is not apply to black powder arms which are considered antiques. Now an 1860 Army loaded with caliber .44 ball can be just as lethal as a modern .44 magnum...no argument there, but there are a lot of people who see this distinction between having a loaded antique weapon in your vehicle as a "loophole." Why, because it is just not common, and Joe Cop isn't probably going to see the difference or make the distinction 'cuz a gun is a gun is a gun. I'd say that it is a crap shoot with regard to whether the LEO knowing it is okay or not. Oh, sure you will no doubt prevail in court because the law is squarely on your side, but it doesn't necessarily mean that you are not going to get arrested.

In short, it's weird, it's bizarre and a lot of people including myself are going to see it as an "exception' to the general rule or in other words a loophole.

You can be speech vigilant all you want, but sometimes you can get overly vigilant for the casual use of a term...and don't worry, New Hampshire is not going the way of Massachusetts...yet...I'll give it another 40 or 50 years, and don't think for a New York minute that's not going to happen if things keep going the way they are now...[wink]
 
Sorry, Mark. Its still not a loophole. Not anymore than open carrying without a permit is a loophole. These are two examples of whats specifically allowed under the law, that does not require a permit. And, there are great examples of when both of these law-abiding acts are beneficial to people who are not able to obtain an NH permit for one reason or another.

And, by the way, a .454 ball fired out of an 1860 army is much more comparable to a 38 special than a .44 magnum. It wouldn't be my first choice. But, its a choice. And a legal one.
 
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Loophole or not, not every LEO knows every single law on the books, and if he/she is in doubt you will be arrested and the courts with straighten it out. IMHO not worth it. I'd pick a different fight, just my take on this issue.

Just like in MA where transporting a pump action shotgun unloaded in a locked truck meets the minimum standard under the law, I still put every firearm in a case with a lock. No big deal, and no issues if I'm stopped.
 
Loophole or not, not every LEO knows every single law on the books, and if he/she is in doubt you will be arrested and the courts with straighten it out. IMHO not worth it. I'd pick a different fight, just my take on this issue.

Just like in MA where transporting a pump action shotgun unloaded in a locked truck meets the minimum standard under the law, I still put every firearm in a case with a lock. No big deal, and no issues if I'm stopped.

Its not picking a fight, its simply following the law. I understand your point, but the law states that you can carry a cap and ball revolver without a permit. The law also states that you can carry a pistol with a permit. One is as legal as the next.

If you were to spend your life trying not to break laws that don't even exist, simply because you are under the correct assumption that cops typically are not the most well-versed on the laws that do exist, you'd never leave your front door. Because you're right, cops typically are clueless. But, I'm not going to live my life like that. I'll just follow the law. Plain and simple.
 
Its not picking a fight, its simply following the law. I understand your point, but the law states that you can carry a cap and ball revolver without a permit. The law also states that you can carry a pistol with a permit. One is as legal as the next.

If you were to spend your life trying not to break laws that don't even exist, simply because you are under the correct assumption that cops typically are not the most well-versed on the laws that do exist, you'd never leave your front door. Because you're right, cops typically are clueless. But, I'm not going to live my life like that. I'll just follow the law. Plain and simple.

I think the point is you are relying on an obscure exception to the law. While perfectly legal, I'd expect 99% of the cops to be unaware of the antique exception...

The other question would be if it has been decided that a copy of an antique firearm has the same legal status as an antique? I might expect a cop to balk at that as well.

So will you win? Most likely yes, but there will be legal costs, plus dealing with the arrest... Only you can determine the cost/benefit...
 
The other question would be if it has been decided that a copy of an antique firearm has the same legal status as an antique? I might expect a cop to balk at that as well.

I would suggest that you read the law before commenting on it. It would help you retain your credibility.

The definition is, in fact, included in the text. And, it has nothing to do with whether or not the firearm is a "copy". It is the type of ignition that defines an "antique" according to the actual law.
 
Sorry, Mark. Its still not a loophole.
Call it what you want. Chances are the average police officer doesn't know the law in that much detail, and if found without a license he will arrest you. Yes, as Mark says, you'll prevail in court, but in the meantime it has ruined your whole day.
 
Call it what you want. Chances are the average police officer doesn't know the law in that much detail, and if found without a license he will arrest you.

Chances are based on what? What is your relevant experience in the matter? What do you base this opinion on?
 
Chances are based on what? What is your relevant experience in the matter? What do you base this opinion on?

Based on my discussions with police officers about gun laws. I've spoken about similar gun laws with officers from several departments. The ones that I spoke with are gunnies and they knew these subtleties in the laws. But to a man they all said that the bulk of their fellow officers didn't know the law in that detail.

And, btw, mark056 works full-time with police officers. He shares my opinion.
 
Dude, you asked a question, people answered in what, to me, appears to be quite reasonable responses and you're jumping on their shit.

Sounds to me that you're already decided so why bother posting. Do it or don't do it but the arguing is pointless.
 
I would suggest that you read the law before commenting on it. It would help you retain your credibility.

The definition is, in fact, included in the text. And, it has nothing to do with whether or not the firearm is a "copy". It is the type of ignition that defines an "antique" according to the actual law.

You quoted part of the law in the OP, but not the complete text and you did not refer to the specific RSA.... and you asked if this would be legal. And then you bitch that people offering an opinion haven't read the law.

So you are getting what you asked for - opinion. Seems you have your own and are looking for agreement only.

The point is, expecting a cop to be familiar with all aspects of a law is rather risky to your freedom and money.

In a police encounter, concealed gun with no license, odds are you'll be arrested and you'll be arguing the case before a judge. Trying to "sea lawyer" your way out of the situation with the cop will only ensure your arrest.

What's your time and money worth? You most likely will win in court, but you'll still be spending the day in court and your lawyer fees will be your own responsibility.
 
Dude, you asked a question, people answered in what, to me, appears to be quite reasonable responses and you're jumping on their shit.

Sounds to me that you're already decided so why bother posting. Do it or don't do it but the arguing is pointless.

I asked a question about legality. I got the answer. Now, we're discussing practicality. Contribute to the discussion or stay out of it.
 
Doesn't sound like we're discussing, rather BOBKATThas chosen a position and is now defending it vociferously, mostly by obliquely insulting anybody who thinks differently. Actually, this sounds like every other forum post under the handle BOBKATT.
 
I'll leave the interpretation of law to many who have posted who are very credible. I will take the point that as said it is legal to carry an antique. As the law states it is legal, that is agreed on. So yes you can carry an antique firearm in NH as the law describes.

So now the question becomes, because of factors beyond the law " the understanding that an LEO may have of that law" is it worth doing.

That comes down to reason for carry, cost in time and money. Being that you are likely to be arrested if caught = Time. Need bail and an attorney = $$$. Then a hearing or trial which = more time and money.

Because the LEO probably is rarely put in a situation to have to make this distinction between lawful carry of an antique or unlawful carry of a firearm. In this case my guess it that they are probably going to fault on the unlawful side, arrest you and let the DA or someone else figure out the situation. Costs the LEO nothing, but can cost you a lot.

So I guess, yes you can do it, but you can also run into a situation that results in aggrivation, time and monetary loss. Not fair, may not be right, but seems to be the likely outcome.

So the question becomes is it worth it to you. If so, have at it. If not, don't do it. Yup it sucks that this is the way it is, but it is. As long as all guns and people who carry guns are considered "bad" by a large part of society and the laws are so complex and unclear that the "average guy" can't make sense of them, this situation is what it is.

So if there is a highly likely hood of a threat to you and/or your family. probably worth it. If it is being done to bring light to the point that it is legal, doing it, may worth it. These are all personal preferances.


There are many other similar laws, interpretation of laws and how the law will be enforced. An example I can think of was, early in my carreer I was driving an ambulance, with lights and sirens activated. My partner was in the patient compartment treating a patient with chest pain. We traveled safely above the speed limit and stopped at a red light prior to passing through the intersection. We never came close to causing an accident and the day was sunny with dry roads. I operated above the speed limit and proceeded through a red light "with due caution/regard" as the law allowed for an emergency vehicle.


Well on arrival at the hospital an LEO who followed, he asked me why I drove with my light and siren and then tickets me for marked lanes violation, speeding and running a red light. I pleaded my case and stated the allowances given under law to an emergency vehicle. But the LEO disagreed stating in his "opinion" our patient's chest pain was not "life threatening" and applied his interpretation of the law.

I fought the tickets with the help of my employer. So we went to court, the court agreed that a "life threat" did exist, that we the "medical professionals" make the determination of "life threat", not the LEO and all counts were thrown out. The person hearing the case said I was acting lawfully. Cost my employer a lot of money on attorney etc.

Now if the patient had a non-life threatening situation or we were simply tranferring a patient between hospitals as ambulances do every day, the LEO would have been correct as an "emergency" did not exist. So in these cases the ambulance must travel in traffic, with posted speeds and obey all controls.


Before I get decended upon my example is just to factually demonstrate how an LEO may not know every aspect of all laws. In this case the LEO was new and inexperienced. But his powers are no different than those of a veteran LEO. He made the wrong interpretation and took action against me. In the end I was proven right and he wrong, but the only ones out money and time were my employer and I.

I guess that's why they say "this is why courts exist." So the question is really, is it worth it? Not is it legal and can you do it?

My 2 cents.
 
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