Carrying Reloads.

[C-pher]

I'm sorry if this was covered before. I didn't find anything through the search. But for some reason, I suck as searching on this site.

Anyway. What's the laws say about carrying your own reloads?

I've been reading some things around and I'm getting the impression that I shouldn't really be doing this.

That I should get some factory defense loads and carry those.

Not really that it's against the law to carry reloads. But god forbid I would need to fire, it could be used against me if I wasn't carrying factory loads.

Also read that you should keep some of the rounds that you carry off to the side incase you need them should you have to fire your carry weapon.

 

[KMaurer]

I'm sorry if this was covered before. I didn't find anything through the search. But for some reason, I suck as searching on this site.

You're not the only one having trouble here. I can't manage to get the search to work correctly for some fairly simply queries which I know with absolute certainty should produce results.

Anyway. What's the laws say about carrying your own reloads?

I've been reading some things around and I'm getting the impression that I shouldn't really be doing this.

That I should get some factory defense loads and carry those.

Not really that it's against the law to carry reloads. But god forbid I would need to fire, it could be used against me if I wasn't carrying factory loads.

There's no law in Massachusetts (or any other place of which I'm aware) against carrying and using reloads for personal protection. Mas Ayoob and some others caution against this for a couple of reasons. First, reliability problems are more common with reloads, and second, the possibility that an overzealous prosecutor could argue that the use of these "homemade killer bullets" demonstrates that you were looking for a chance to murder a helpless armed rapist.

Also read that you should keep some of the rounds that you carry off to the side incase you need them should you have to fire your carry weapon.

That would only seem to make sense if you were using reloads. If you're using factory loads, the fact that both the recovered bullets (if any) and the cartridge cases are consistent with the (e.g. 230 grain Federal JHP) that you claim that you use should take care of it.

Ken

 

[Lynne]

I agree with Ken - if you reload your own carry ammo, the DA could make it sound like you loaded them to be bazookas.

Personally - I carry factory defensive ammo and use the reloads for practice. Course, I'll splurge every so often and shoot a box of the carry stuff just to remember what the differencem between them feels like.

 

[mark056]

Great advice from Ken and Lynne in my opinion. Maybe thirty years ago carrying handloads for defense made sense, but now with the variety and quality of factory ammunition for that purpose there is little need to carry handloads. Given the present political and legal climate there is no doubt that using handloads in a defensive shooting situation could aid in both criminal and civil prosecution.

I always thought that Mas Ayoob made a great point on this. He also advocates that one should keep a few rounds (as previously noted) as well as the product code or lot number as well. It is probably not a bad idea per se, although I have never gone to that extreme though perhaps I should.

Mark

 

[C-pher]

Well, that's what I figured. So, I guess that I'll head up and pick up some hydrashocks.

Now, what are you thoughts on carrying a preban normal capacity magazine?

Should you carry a ten round magazin? Just so they can't argue that you were looking to shoot a bizillion rounds into the bad guy.

 

[FPrice]

C-pher,

From what (little) I have seen and read, if your theoretical "shoot" is justified, a good attorney should be able to refute any other bogus claims.

"Deadly Killer Hollow Nose Dum-Dum Bullets" - Well LEOs use use HP bullets because they are more likely to not exit the target and endanger other people.

"Unlawful High Capacity Magazines so he could shoot dozens of rounds" - How many did he actually shoot and how many rounds do LEOs carry? And if pre-ban they are legal under MGL.

Stay within the law and you should be okay.

 

[M1911]

From what (little) I have seen and read, if your theoretical "shoot" is justified, a good attorney should be able to refute any other bogus claims.

Why give the prosecutor any ammunition that your defense attorney would have to try to refute?

Since good factory defensive ammo is available, why carry reloads when there is a chance (however large or small that may be) that it could come back to bite you?

Yes, I do reload. I just don't carry them. YMMV.

 

[C-pher]

From what (little) I have seen and read, if your theoretical "shoot" is justified, a good attorney should be able to refute any other bogus claims.

Why give the prosecutor any ammunition that your defense attorney would have to try to refute?

Since good factory defensive ammo is available, why carry reloads when there is a chance (however large or small that may be) that it could come back to bite you?

Yes, I do reload. I just don't carry them. YMMV.

That I understand. And it makes perfect sense. I just carried them because I knew what I was shooting. I was used to how they felt coming out of the gun.

But I see that it might not be wise...and I don't carry very often.

I would still like to hear what people think about Standard Capasity Magazines vs. Restricted Magazines.

 

[FPrice]

Why give the prosecutor any ammunition that your defense attorney would have to try to refute?

I assume that your pun was intended??? [shock]

Actually, I would think that the more you refute, the worse the prosecutor's case would begin to look.

The defendent did this. REFUTED.

The defendent did that. REFUTED.

Well the defendent also did this other thing. REFUTED.

Defense summary: The Prosecutor has made many false allegations which we have shown you. The reason for these false allegations is that the prosecutor really does not have a case against my client and had had to make things up to try to convict him but you the jury are too smart to be fooled by this. (All presented in appropriate legal terms.)

Again, if the "shoot" was justified, all other considerations should be of little concern.

FWIW, I carry factory ammo and would advise others to do the same.

 

[mark056]

With regard to carrying pre-ban magazines, I have considered this, and I don't. For one thing the new high capacity magazines I don't think are marked, so how does one prove the magazine is pre-ban or not ?

In light of this, I have switched over to a low cap double action .45 automatic (Ruger P345) and a revolver (a DAO Ruger SP101 in .357 but like many I carry .38spl +P). The .45 is Mass compliant in every way. The revolver was made in 1995, but with a five shot capacity and a DAO only trigger, I think I'm okay.

Now I have no doubt that defense arguments in court could overcome a prosecutor's arguments relative to carrying a pre-ban hi-cap killer magazine in a pre MA GCA '98 non-Mass compliant gun, but why add fuel to the fire ? It is going to be an uphill fight, most likely, if one lawfully uses a firearm for self-defense. The impression created by the prosecution will remain with the jury and remember they aren't really your peers except in the legal sense.

Call me overly anal about this, or even stupid...but working in the criminal justice system has taught me that: 1. The good guys don't always prevail in court in a justifiable shooting 2. If found justified and not-guilty, the almost certain civil trial is bound to be a nightmare and there is no reason to provide any extra ammunition (no pun intended) for the plaintiff.

Other people may deal with this issue differently and present some very cogent arguments for doing so, I , on the other hand will be extremely or overly cautious.

Mark

 

[Optimistic Paranoid]

I would still like to hear what people think about Standard Capasity Magazines vs. Restricted Magazines.

New York also still has a state ban on high capacity mags.

Considering that before I bought my Glock 35, I was carrying either a six shot .357 or a seven shot K40, I have a hard time working up any real angst about being limited to "only" ten round magazines.

Regards
John

 

[Optimistic Paranoid]

Why give the prosecutor any ammunition that your defense attorney would have to try to refute?

I assume that your pun was intended??? [shock]

Actually, I would think that the more you refute, the worse the prosecutor's case would begin to look.

The defendent did this. REFUTED.

The defendent did that. REFUTED.

Well the defendent also did this other thing. REFUTED.

Defense summary: The Prosecutor has made many false allegations which we have shown you. The reason for these false allegations is that the prosecutor really does not have a case against my client and had had to make things up to try to convict him but you the jury are too smart to be fooled by this. (All presented in appropriate legal terms.)

Again, if the "shoot" was justified, all other considerations should be of little concern.

FWIW, I carry factory ammo and would advise others to do the same.

If you have to shoot somebody, and then defend yourself in court, you are going to drop maybe $50,000, maybe more, on a good defense attorney.

It's possible that circumstances are such that the prosecutor may ONLY decide to prosecute BECAUSE the presence of handloads and/or high cap mags makes him think he might win an otherwise unwinnable case.

Some people will doubtless claim that this is extremely unlikely.

Maybe. But I can't think of a single upside to outweigh this possible downside.

Good factory rounds are gonna be better than any handload you can cook up, and if you NEED more than 10 rounds, you've probably lost the fight anyway.

But WTH, it's YOUR karma. Work it out any way you want.

Regards
John

 

[Len-2A Training]

I recommend carrying only factory ammo.

As for mags . . .

- Can you guarantee me only one perp?

* If you can't, perhaps 3 or 4 may require more than 10 rounds total to put down the threat?

- Carry only pre-ban mags and don't sweat the number of rounds that it holds.

- Just be absolutely certain that the mags you use are indeed pre-ban (some less than scrupulous folks are foisting off new mags as pre-ban).

- Have the name/number of a good firearms defense attorney on your cell phone, your PDA and in the hands of your SO!

As for juries . . .

- I used to shoot weekly with a good friend who is a criminal defense attorney, so this is one of his stories (from back in late 1970s).

* He had a Boston merchant client that hid a sawed-off shotgun under the counter of his store . . . he'd been robbed before and the gun had to be cut down to fit under the counter.

* He gets robbed and has to use the shotgun.

* He gets charged with possession of a sawed-off shotgun.

* My friend (his attorney) makes a case to the jury that the length of the barrel should be measured from the rear of the breach with the action open (adding ~3" to real length of the barrel [lol] ). [It had to be a pump or semi-auto.]

* Yes the attorney knew what the real dimension should be, but he's doing his best for his client to get him off. And the jury (and prosecutor - ADA) obviously didn't know anything about firearms! [lol]

* The jury bought it, and score one for the good guy!

The message is that being right is no guarantee that you'll win! And being wrong is no guarantee that you'll lose! [We may not like the results, but the defense did the job for OJ and for Beretta!]

 

[RKG]

I have always urged folks to stick strictly with factory ammunition in street carry guns, but for a different reason. Typically, a street carry gun is put away loaded, and the rounds reside in the chamber or magazine for a long time. This gives them far more exposure to moisture and lubricants than rounds in a box are exposed to. Factory rounds tend to be more resistant to moisture or lubricant intrusion, either via the primer or the bullet/case mouth contact.

For the same reason, I've also urged folks who carry on a daily basis to shoot off the rounds in the gun no less often than every 6 months and replace them with fresh factory rounds.

I have no hesitation in using handloads in a woods carry gun, which pretty much will be loaded at the beginning of the day and unloaded at the end.

 

[Lynne]

When I carry - it's high cap in both the .40 and the 9mm. Both mags are 15 round'ers. I bought the Sigma with 2 10 round mags, but, thanks to Len, I got 2 hi caps for it. When I bought the 9mm, it came with 2 15 round mags, so I don't have the option to go non-hi cap.

The reason I carry hi caps is because, as Len so rightly pointed out earlier, can you guarentee me only 1 perp? Chances are it would be only 1, which is more than enough, but, there's also the chance of missed shots. I call it "better safe than sorry" (for me, not the BG). Since I have a Class A license, which covers large cap mags, and it's unrestricted, then I am within the law and exercising my right.

 

[mark056]

With regard to multiple assailants, I cannot emphasize enough the carrying of spare ammunition, even with a gun that has a high capacity magazine. Granted, a tactical reload is not always the optimal thing to try to do in a firefight which is why it must be practiced. Another reason to carry a spare mag, is that magazines can be fussy beasts at times and of all the components that can contribute to a malfunction, a bad magazine is frequently the culprit. If you have to perform a malfunction drill to alleviate a stoppage under fire, a spare magazine is worth its weight in gold and then some.

I know that a lot of IPSC folks and Cooperites are really going to raise some eyebrows, but to my way of thinking reloading before you have to in the real world doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. Maybe some can count their rounds in a firefight, then during a lull release the mag in the gun, pull out a fresh mag insert it in the gun, and save the partially used magazine. Maybe that's gamesmanship....and maybe it is not...and I am not saying that a slide stop will NOT fail, it can...but to my way of thinking it is better to release the empty mag after all rounds have been expended, let it freefall and then insert a fresh mag, yank back the slide and let it go into battery. Now this was the way I was taught and I know some of you have different opinions. To date I have not had to see if my thinking is right or not and I hope that I never have to. I had to pull a weapon on three hombres who were trying to attack me in out in Arizona many moons ago, and they stopped right in their tracks. That's the closest I've ever come to seeing the elephant so take what I say with a grain of salt with regard to reloading under fire. I just know what I would do, and that is how I practice.

Good Shooting to all and may all of your targets be paper or steel and not shoot back !

Mark

 

[FPrice]

For one thing the new high capacity magazines I don't think are marked, so how does one prove the magazine is pre-ban or not ?

All of the post-ban Mecgar magazines I have seen have a tiny date stamp on them, usually on the base. A circle with the numbers 1-12 around the outside, an arrow pointing to one, and a two-digit number on the inside of the circle. Most of the new AR-15 style mags have a number in the format "XX-XX" which seems to be another date code. Glock magazines have nothing like this but supposedly the caliber designation is slightly different on post-ban mags.

Not very scientific observations I suppose but enough to give one a clue.

 

[Lynne]

With regard to multiple assailants, I cannot emphasize enough the carrying of spare ammunition, even with a gun that has a high capacity magazine.

They're like my american express card...I never leave home without it.