Carry Ammo

[SA John]

I don't carry a gun for PD but I do keep them in my house and on my sailboat. Seems to me the only way to get a one-shot-stop with any kind of reliability is to target the head or the spine. That's one reason I have alway prefered big heavy bullets in .44 or .45. Anything is usefull for head shots, but to grab the spine on the way out of some fat bastard you'll need a lot of giddy-up. Small bore magnums and jazzed-up 9mm rounds in the auto pistols like the Super and Sig .357 are probably good enough to get through but have horrific muzzle blast. And you won't be wearing ear protection in a self defence shooting. I'll stay with the relatively low pressure .45acp/.45 Colt class of gun and shoot for bone if the time comes.

Ask any hunter who has shot a bunch of big game about how long it can take many animals to die after being hit perfectly in the lungs/heart with a rifle round that dwarfs anything you'ld want to shoot in a handgun. Some die on the spot but most run for 10 seconds and sometimes much longer. Ten seconds is a long time. Now ask those same hunters how their spine-shot animals reacted. The vast majority can't get to the ground fast enough.

John

 

[vaccaroja]

I just wonder about the negative side of carrying 2 different types of Ammo, in a lethal force encounter. I think a lethal force encounter will bring undue scrutiny to the gun-owner (and hopefully the winner!). I cringe as I view an overzealous Prosecutor or Attorney, turn to the Jury and SAY- " Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury, Joe Gun Owner, was out to kill somebody on that day, He carried a Loaded Firearm (God Help if it was Cocked and Locked), with a full magazine of Hollow-Point / Cop-Killer Bullets. But that wasn't enough, he carried other Bullets (FMJ) designed to penetrate Car Bodies and Barriers. He was out to Kill that Day, as evidenced by his extreme forethought and research - on How to Kill".


OH, And about BLACK TALONS ....The Prosecutor / Attorney SAYS- " Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury, Joe Gun Owner, was carrying the EVIL BLACK TALONS. The BLACK TALONS were so Evil, Lethal and Inhumane, that various National News Outlets claimed they were Injurious even to Surgeons, trying to remove them from shooting victims (IF I Remeber 60 Minutes?). To the Jury, the BLACK TALONS were so Inhumane that their Manufacturer - Winchester removed them from the Market. (In their original format)

Think about the Other Side....The Opposition in the COURT or at the POLICE DEPARTMENT? Bad Guy is Dead (Hopefully), but Now you're on the Plate

IMO: Carry a good quality JHP made by one of the Big boys (No Cor-bons or reloads). Make sure it doesn't have a crazy name like Black Talon, Devastator, Instant Death or anything of the like. Might be wise to carry, what LE Agencies carry, then you can fall back on their research, selection and expertise.

im sure if you were actually carrying black talons there is a chance you could get in trouble.. from what i have been told they were banned a while back.. i would be careful.

 

[Len-2A Training]

im sure if you were actually carrying black talons there is a chance you could get in trouble.. from what i have been told they were banned a while back.. i would be careful.

Yup, from what I heard (from an authoritative source in a gun shop once upon a time), everything "black" (wrt firearms) is EVIL!

-------------

Must be why so many of us like to hang out at ZHA . . . we're all evil!

 

[drgrant]

Hi Mike,

I've read a number of articles that poke holes in their analysis, some do a better job that others. I'm still searching for better method of predicting stopping power. I don't know if one exists?

I don't really think it's possible to achieve it, although if you could break down data into subcategories, it would at least be more meaningful. For example, they don't bother to tell us the ratio of stops from psychological vs. physical factors. EG- did the bad guy stop just because he was shot, or because that shot caused physical incapacitation (or at least debilitating pain) which would prevent him from continuing his attack? They also don't discuss what happens with those guys that required more than one shot to stop. This is a big problem because by leaving that out, they're not showing you what happens when that cartridge fails.

Another problem is that even change in weapon may change efficacy- for example, I could not put shootings with a .357 mag snubby in the same category as ones conducted with a .357 mag 3"+ barrel revolver, because the latter arguably has better ballistics than the former; so you wouldn't want to poison the stats due to really short barrel lengths. There's also load specific problems- I would want to discard samples from the datasets that might poison the results; for example, PD's using junk ammo or FMJ. (Whereas, on the other hand, "JHPs that work" often fall in the same realm of performance characteristics.

I guess what I'm getting at is the M+S stats don't really track enough variables to derive meaning from them. I will freely admit though the "problem" itself is complicated, but the M+S stats do not really even scratch the surface.

-Mike

 

[drgrant]

My sentiments exactly. Hollowpoints have been around for what, 30 years? The US military seems to get a lot of sufficient killing done with FMJ. There's really not much need to overthink this.

It's not about overthinking it's about not getting ripped off when buying defense ammo. Some of the JHP loadings floating around out there perform so poorly in common testing protocols that you would not have been any worse off shooting FMJ... I guess my point is, if one is going to buy JHP ammo, they might as well try to get stuff that does what it's supposed to do.

I agree that there are better things to worry about WRT defensive shooting (like shot placement) but not getting ripped off isn't a bad thing.

-Mike

 

[squirt]

Only Federal JHP in .40 for carry.

 

[rickster58]

Talking about head or spine shots reminds me of 25 years ago when I took the course at Worcester PD to get my LTC. A guy asked the instructor " do you shoot to wound or shoot to kill" The instructor (a retired cop with 40 years of service) replied "son, I shoot to stop the person" He went on to say that if you have time to think about where to aim, you probably don't need to shoot him. He then asked the class how long we thought that the average gunfight lasts. The answers ranged from a couple minutes to 15 minutes. He chuckled and informed us that on average an exchange between LE and intruders or criminals etc, averages about 6 seconds.
In my opinion the bottom line is to use good reliable hollow points and use as large a caliber as is practical. If you have to use deadly force, make the first one count, and pray that it hits the person somewhere that will at very least knock them down or incapacitate them. Remember that for home invasions, most of the time it's going to be dark, and difficult to see.

 

[abomb60]

my carry piece is loaded with black talons. But the first one is a Hydro shock.

I run Black Talons in my Glock 17 when I carry it. They're probably no better than Ranger SXT's but everyone knows and fears them . I usually keep the top round or chambered round as a crappy WWB so those nice Black Talons don't have to keep getting chambered and unchambered.

Normally I carry Speer Golddots in my Glock 26 and have to carry 230gr Golddots in my Glock 21. I use Remington HST's in my .38 snubbie but i'm not sold on them yet. Maybe i'll pull the Black Talons from the Glock 17 mags and alternate them in the Glock 26 mags with the Golddots

 

[abomb60]

My sentiments exactly. Hollowpoints have been around for what, 30 years? The US military seems to get a lot of sufficient killing done with FMJ. There's really not much need to overthink this.

Yeah but isn't the military bound by some sort of treaty that forces them to only use FMJ due to "humanitarian purposes" or some crap like that?

I mean I would sure prefer to get someone with a 55gr 5.56mm hollowpoint rather than a FMJ. Of course i'm not usually worried about lightly armored targets like the military might be but what about the effects of AP (SS109) or even FMJ rounds on unarmored targets? Lots of reports from the sandbox of little pencil holes in targets and no real mitigation of the threat.

 

[Skald]

I run Black Talons in my Glock 17 when I carry it. They're probably no better than Ranger SXT's but everyone knows and fears them .

Ranger SXTs are 3rd Generation 'Black Talons' from what I read.

 

[clinotus]

I think you guys debating what the DA is saying in your lawsuit are understating that you are involved in a lawsuit in the first place.

That being said, I go with JHP and follow MassMarks lead. I shoot to stop, not shoot for press and ballistics tests.

 

[OLAK]

I just bought some Hornady Critical Defense rounds, but haven't got to the range to try them yet, so still have Hydro-shok in my carry pistol.

 

[drgrant]

I run Black Talons in my Glock 17 when I carry it. They're probably no better than Ranger SXT's but everyone knows and fears them .

They're worse, actually.... well, worse than newer Ranger-T loadings, at least. They're still WAY better, though, then a lot of the junk JHP loadings out there, though. Black Talons are more of a collectors item than anything else, though, now.

-Mike

 

[Beansie_Time]

Didn't they name the Rangers SXT because they are the Same eXact Thing as the Black Talons.

 

[drgrant]

Didn't they name the Rangers SXT because they are the Same eXact Thing as the Black Talons.

I don't think they use the term "Ranger SXT".

Win SXT is usually a crappy consumer product in a black box that uses a terrible bullet, avoid it. Win Ranger, using the Ranger-T bullet, is what you want... you can tell by the part numbers... EG.. "RA45T" etc... if the box has a Q number, it doesn't have the right bullet. (There is some 155 grain .40 SW garbage in win ranger packaging that uses one of these crappy bullets- A certain distributor was blowing this crap out a few years ago for $17/50 rounds, and people were lapping it up like hungry animals, without realizing it didn't even use the real Ranger-T bullet.

When buying this stuff its best to look at the PN's from Winchester's LE site to do a sanity check. No reason to get raped by a silly marketing trick by Winchester. It bewilders me why they make the product lines so damned confusing.

-Mike

 

[BillK]

On duty- 36 rounds of Speer Gold Dot 155gr GDHP .40S&W
Off duty- 12/24 rounds of Speer Gold Dot 155gr GDHP .40S&W (depending on holster config.)

 

[maee]

I wouldn't carry any scary-named ammo either, like BlackTalon super-killers. There is a well-documented case in Arizona of a man using a 10 mm handgun to kill an attacker. He was convicted because the "10 mm round was an abnormally deadly around that constituted excessive force"

As absurd as it sounds on the face of it, if you think about it, one can understand the legal theory. They argued that he could have stopped him with a 9 mm, and maybe he would have survived. But the 10 mm (with its one whole mm extra!) was sure to kill him. And I believe, legally, you are only allowed to use sufficient force as necessary to neutralize the threat.

 

[drgrant]

There is a well-documented case in Arizona of a man using a 10 mm handgun to kill an attacker. He was convicted because the "10 mm round was an abnormally deadly around that constituted excessive force"

Sorry, but this isn't really true- Did you actually read into the Fish case?

For starters, he had trouble reconstructing the timeline of events, and even appeared to be inconsistent at times in testimony. The "warning shots" that he supposedly fired, probably did not help him either.

The fact that he was using a 10mm was the least of his problems.

-Mike

 

[btnh6668]

Would it really be that bad to use target rounds?

 

[CooperS7777]

Would it really be that bad to use target rounds?

Like lead rounds or FMJ's? Im shooting for the guy Im aiming at, not the guy behind him or in the next room.

 

[btnh6668]

Like lead rounds or FMJ's? Im shooting for the guy Im aiming at, not the guy behind him or in the next room.

Guess i should buy me some different ammo to carry. My noob question for the day is what does FMJ stand for?

 

[depicts]

Guess i should buy me some different ammo to carry. My noob question for the day is what does FMJ stand for?

Yes you are a Noob. And welcome to you. FMJ stands for Full Metal Jacket, or the coating over the lead part of a bullet. Have fun learning all the hundreds of facts and acronyms you're headed for, and don't be afraid to ask questions. Reasearch a little first.

 

[Ray-500]

I wouldn't carry any scary-named ammo either, like BlackTalon super-killers. There is a well-documented case in Arizona of a man using a 10 mm handgun to kill an attacker. He was convicted because the "10 mm round was an abnormally deadly around that constituted excessive force"

As absurd as it sounds on the face of it, if you think about it, one can understand the legal theory. They argued that he could have stopped him with a 9 mm, and maybe he would have survived. But the 10 mm (with its one whole mm extra!) was sure to kill him. And I believe, legally, you are only allowed to use sufficient force as necessary to neutralize the threat.

Guess my .45 Win Mag would automatically make me a bad guy? Ridiculous and stupid.

 

[pernox]

I carry Pow'rball in my Sig P6 - it's a 6/80 dated gun, and from what I read may hiccup with regular HP bullets. The Pow'rball has a small nylon ball in the hollow tip of the bullet, making it very slick and easy to feed. It's fed without issue for 100+ rounds. I've debated testing other cartridges, but haven't been convinced that it would be worthwhile to switch off the Pow'rball. =)

 

[GSG]

I wouldn't carry any scary-named ammo either, like BlackTalon super-killers. There is a well-documented case in Arizona of a man using a 10 mm handgun to kill an attacker. He was convicted because the "10 mm round was an abnormally deadly around that constituted excessive force"

As absurd as it sounds on the face of it, if you think about it, one can understand the legal theory. They argued that he could have stopped him with a 9 mm, and maybe he would have survived. But the 10 mm (with its one whole mm extra!) was sure to kill him. And I believe, legally, you are only allowed to use sufficient force as necessary to neutralize the threat.

Sorry, but this isn't really true- Did you actually read into the Fish case?

For starters, he had trouble reconstructing the timeline of events, and even appeared to be inconsistent at times in testimony. The "warning shots" that he supposedly fired, probably did not help him either.

The fact that he was using a 10mm was the least of his problems.

-Mike

And the fact that he shot an un-armed man who was yelling and running at him with a 10mm didn't help him out any. He wasn't convicted based on caliber, but it was brought up that it was "a caliber too powerful for the local police to carry" or some BS like that.

Fish's biggest mistake was going into a long, detailed interview with detectives, telling them every single thing he saw and felt, without legal representation. He gave them a lot of words to try and use against him, and now he's serving time for it.

 

[Rob]

I'm going to give another vote for Pow'RBall ammo. It feeds well and shoots straight.

 

[8x57mm]

I carry a plain-jane S&W 910 9mm, stuffed with Cor-Bon 115gr +P JHP (1340 fps). The best self-defense load for that caliber... period.

 

[MassMark]

I carry a plain-jane S&W 910 9mm, stuffed with Cor-Bon 115gr +P JHP (1340 fps). The best self-defense load for that caliber... period.

That's a bold statement - care to back it up? Not starting a "my ammo is better than your ammo" thread, just curious how you arrived at the "period", as I can;t seem to find statistical information to back that period up...

 

[GLOCK.Perfection]

That's a bold statement - care to back it up? Not starting a "my ammo is better than your ammo" thread, just curious how you arrived at the "period", as I can;t seem to find statistical information to back that period up...

I think he meant after HST and gold dot

 

[GSG]

Ah, the caliber wars.