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Carry Ammo
- Thread starter CooperS7777
- Start date
If you have to ask?........ Clearly, you guys just don't get it. Carry all the obscure, hardest to find, funny-ist sounding ammo, that you can find. I'll stick to Winchester, Remington, Federal, CCI/Speer, in all calibers.
BTW, could you point me to the "Buffalo Bore" and Cor-Bon" Booth at SHOT SHOW. OH I forgot, they don't have a booth at the Industry Trade Show. They're probably back at Home, polishing bullets in the basement like Jose.
Come Here my little Buffalo Bore Buddy...." When I only have six shots, I want each one to hit as hard as it can within my ability to control them." Pass the Lube, somebody is polishing his ammo and his rocket.
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Mass-diver
NES Member
I've always heard great things about Cor-bon ammo i.e. high quality, high performance. One of my favorite review sites (Gun Blast) loves the stuff.
For me, it's not about name brands or whether some ammo company is part of the main stream LEO ass-kissing, industry, instead it's about the quality of the round itself. I don't needs tons of the stuff - I stock pile rifle rounds and .22LR, so a couple hundred rounds of JHP pistol ammo is fine for me.
So, tell me, what don't I get?
I don't like CorBon but it has nothing to do with the legal "ayoob glue fumes" kind of stuff that DPS is talking about.
-Too expensive; no 50 round boxes either, ever. (I can get Speer GDHP and Win Rangers in 50 round packaging, which ends up being cheaper)
-Their primers seemed harder or seated differently. I had a gun which had
issues lighting off some types of ammo, but oddly enough, at least all major brands of
self defense ammo still fired reliably in this gun... except Cor-Bon. Now the
gun is fixed so it doesn't matter, but I'd rather have that extra margin of
safety.
-A lot of their loadings are junk (crappy, marginal JHP bullet design) except
for the ones using the DPX bullet.
-Why the hell can't they load the DPX .45 at non +P pressure? Lack of variety is annoying.
-Mike
-Too expensive; no 50 round boxes either, ever. (I can get Speer GDHP and Win Rangers in 50 round packaging, which ends up being cheaper)
-Their primers seemed harder or seated differently. I had a gun which had
issues lighting off some types of ammo, but oddly enough, at least all major brands of
self defense ammo still fired reliably in this gun... except Cor-Bon. Now the
gun is fixed so it doesn't matter, but I'd rather have that extra margin of
safety.
-A lot of their loadings are junk (crappy, marginal JHP bullet design) except
for the ones using the DPX bullet.
-Why the hell can't they load the DPX .45 at non +P pressure? Lack of variety is annoying.
-Mike
Quality
Ok, If "its about the Quality of the Round" ...I have a couple comments.
Accuracy in ammunition and shooting is a by-product of CONSISTENCY. The Big or Main Stream Ammo Companies Consistently load with better Quality Controls, proof their loads, test their loads, and develop them with specific performance parameters. Yes, Cor-bon or Black Hills, can do similar things....but who does it better or more Consistently?
Its not about "Tons of the stuff (AMMO)", its about what the ammo does 100% of the time, when you need it most.
Btw, the LE or LEO aspect of the subject, gives you a "Clue". What LE Agencies carry your Cor-bon's? NONE. There is a reason for that, and aren't they the ones , in most need of Ammunition Performance? Its not just about ass-kissing or advertising. But if GUN BLAST loves the stuff, go ahead and carry it, unlike thousands of local,state,fed. LE Agencies. Gun Blast has spoken, so the Lemmings now will jump off the cliff.
Ok, If "its about the Quality of the Round" ...I have a couple comments.
Accuracy in ammunition and shooting is a by-product of CONSISTENCY. The Big or Main Stream Ammo Companies Consistently load with better Quality Controls, proof their loads, test their loads, and develop them with specific performance parameters. Yes, Cor-bon or Black Hills, can do similar things....but who does it better or more Consistently?
Its not about "Tons of the stuff (AMMO)", its about what the ammo does 100% of the time, when you need it most.
Btw, the LE or LEO aspect of the subject, gives you a "Clue". What LE Agencies carry your Cor-bon's? NONE. There is a reason for that, and aren't they the ones , in most need of Ammunition Performance? Its not just about ass-kissing or advertising. But if GUN BLAST loves the stuff, go ahead and carry it, unlike thousands of local,state,fed. LE Agencies. Gun Blast has spoken, so the Lemmings now will jump off the cliff.
Mas Ayoob
You guys know the Mas Ayoob connection with Cor-Bon? He used to write about and recommend, and SELL Cor-Bon, back in the Day, when he was getting major hand-outs and free product. BUT Then, Cor-Bon Stopped the Gravy Train....and Guess What? Mas Ayoob stopped pitching their Product. Suddenly, it wasn't so notable or effective?
Now as you read the Gun Writers, notice all the mention of Black Hills Ammunition? Guess What...Same scenario?
You guys know the Mas Ayoob connection with Cor-Bon? He used to write about and recommend, and SELL Cor-Bon, back in the Day, when he was getting major hand-outs and free product. BUT Then, Cor-Bon Stopped the Gravy Train....and Guess What? Mas Ayoob stopped pitching their Product. Suddenly, it wasn't so notable or effective?
Now as you read the Gun Writers, notice all the mention of Black Hills Ammunition? Guess What...Same scenario?
Mass-diver
NES Member
Marshall and Sanow seem to also have high opinion of Cor-bon ammo IIRC. I take it you don't put much faith in their viewpoint either?
Again, I carry remmi golden sabers, so I'm not in love with cor-bon or anything, however I do think that small manufactures play larger role in ammunition innovation than most big companies want to admit.
And, the fact that some LE agencies chooses a brand of ammo means nothing to me. Furthermore, the fact that big manufactures hold back the "good" stuff in "police only" round is total bullshit.
Frankly, I could give a flaying crap what name is on the cartridges I carry. I don't carry a gun for yuk-yuks, or select my ammunition to be the most politically correct. I carry Speer 135gr Gold Dot +P's because they have a higher likelihood of ending the fight then anything Cor-Bon - period. If I am in a situation where if I need to deploy my weapon, I need my ammunition to be as serious as the situation....
+1
The carry ammo I will be using will be one that goes 'BANG' everytime I pull the trigger, the round ejects fine, and then a new one is loaded into the action.
Mass-diver
NES Member
Mark, just curious what you are basing this on? I'm not the world's expert on Cor-Bon, is there some internet back story here? Do they have goofy tactitcool ads or something ? I'm one of those people that read the Marshall/Sanow books and was impressed.
I don't think car-bon makes a 135gr 9mm load, but, while your choice is fine load and all, I don't think that there is overwhelming evidence that's it the superior 9mm cartridge. In fact, I don't think there is any real reason to believe that any JHP is much better better than any other JHP.
When I carry 9mm, I carry Winchester ranger 115gr +p+ and I don't think any other 9mm is significantly more effective than it.
Mass-diver
NES Member
Again, are people having reliability problems with car-bon? I'm a Glock guy, so my experience might not match those of people with more ammunition sensitive pistols.
I carry a .38...
![[wink]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/002.gif "Wink [wink]")
I'm among the least organized people I know...There are a few exceptions and carry ammo appears to be one of them. I am obsessed with finding the best carry ammo for my needs, shooting style, recoil tolerance and of course - effectiveness in ending a fight. I do a lot of research and a lot of testing before I carry a cartridge on the street. I do not pay attention to internet hype or paid spokesmen. I spent hours reading, asking questions, buying and testing ammunition when I carried a .45ACP - I found great comfort in Remington Golden Sabre 185gr - especially out of a 3" barrel - awesome round.
Now I carry a .38 Special and I took the exact same approach in choosing the ammunition I now carry daily - and train with. I choose to train with the ammunition I carry, so when a decision is made I buy in bulk, so with a large expenditure on carry/training ammo, I leave little to chance. Among the articles I found particularly useful in this decision-making process were the following:
http://www.thegunzone.com/speer135jhp38sp.html
http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/38 Snub Ammo Test.htm
There are certainly advocates for other rounds like the 158gr Buffalo Bore, (which I tested extensively) among other fine cartridges. I'm certain any premium defensive ammunition will get the job done. I would also argue though that I do in fact, carry a superior cartridge to just about anything commercially produced. I also take exception to your statement that "there is any reason to believe that any JHP is much better than any other JHP". A little research will find serious flaws in that thought process....
Mass-diver
NES Member
I carry a .38...
wow, no more late night typing for me when I can't even get calibers right.
Anyways, I'm glad to hear that your research turned up good stuff about the Golden Sabre 185gr, I carry it with confidence in my G30.
I can't afford to train with what I carry
![[sad]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/004.gif "Sad [sad]")
so I normally put about 100-200 rounds of the new carry stuff through my pistol to make sure it feeds and then train with cheap stuff. I guess that's not ideal. Thanks for the links, interesting stuff. I'm still not really convinced that any of the major brands of JHPs offer any real-life advantages over one another. However, I understand the importance of any gaining any edge in a gunfight. Again, the logic/science behind "Stopping Power," "Street Stoppers," etc really makes sense to me, but know lots of people don't buy those ideas.
wow, no more late night typing for me when I can't even get calibers right.
Anyways, I'm glad to hear that your research turned up good stuff about the Golden Sabre 185gr, I carry it with confidence in my G30.
I can't afford to train with what I carry
Thanks for the links, interesting stuff. I'm still not really convinced that any of the major brands of JHPs offer any real-life advantages over one another. However, I understand the importance of any gaining any edge in a gunfight. Again, the logic/science behind "Stopping Power," "Street Stoppers," etc really makes sense to me, but know lots of people don't buy those ideas.
I loved the Golden Sabres. They were the most accurate .45's I fired out of both my Defender and my 6.45LDA. I mean, it was clearly visible target to target. I'd line up mags of different carry ammo and shoot for groups and the Golden Sabres always came out on top...I carried them for years and just put my last two boxes through a borrowed, (and graciously lent) Sig220. I think they are better suited for short-barreled .45's however, but they were every bit as potent out of the 220 this afternoon...
As far as buying differences, my take on it comes down to speed, accuracy, expansion, retained mass and penetration. There are notable differences when comparing many of the various offerings, which I think speaks to their effectiveness in ending a confrontation. By the way, I love the Ranger 115 +P+. I rarely carry a 9mm, but when I did, either Ranger 115's or Speer GDHP 124gr +P's were on deck...I got a deal on the Speer GDHP, ($250.00 for 1K), and shoot them out of my Uzi from time to time. If you've not tried them, I'll bring a box for you...
I've heard of some instances about some stuff happening, but VERY few and far between.
If you have a 9mm the Winchester Ranger-T 127 gr +P+ JHP (RA9TA) are supposed to be REALLY good, but I guess any of the Winchester Ranger Ammo is pretty good.
Given that my wife and I will be carrying we are going to TRY and get glocks. I am looking at a 19 for me and 26 for her. But will get a gun she feels comfortable with first and formost. If not will try out the Smith M&P compact in 9mm. Will go through more til we find what she finds comfortable.
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Do you guys have a range nearby where you can rent/try before you buy?
Win Rangers in my 1911, Hydro's in my 9. Why?
1. They go boom every time
2. They are easy to find
3. They won't break my bank too much, after all you need to practice what you carry with.
1. They go boom every time
2. They are easy to find
3. They won't break my bank too much, after all you need to practice what you carry with.
Mass-diver
NES Member
I picked up a bunch of this stuff a few years ago and it seems to be pretty nice load. It's the 115gr +p+ I'm of the belief that when you carry a compact pistol, your best bet ammunition wise to to carry something very fast and very light. Sorry for the cell phone pic
Yup, about 10 mins from the house. Will probably grab a family membership for $200 so we can practice a lot.
They have all the 9mm Glock Models for rent, as well as some M&P's, a couple of HK's and a couple of Sigs.
You can also rent a silencer too for a couple of them as well.
Also if I buy a handgun that day from them they deduct the rental AND range fee's from the price.
Example:
GLock 19 is about $550, but if I use the range and rent the gun to see if I like it it lowers down to $530 or so.
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No Jose, this is NOT BS, D.P.S. has it right on. +1 D.P.S.
Something to reflect upon wrt effectivity of ammo . . .
This is an excerpt from a LE magazine's Officer Down column.
Source: http://www.lawofficer.com/news-and-articles/articles/lom/0412/the_peter_soulis_incident.html
This is an excerpt from a LE magazine's Officer Down column.
Source: http://www.lawofficer.com/news-and-articles/articles/lom/0412/the_peter_soulis_incident.html
I'm with Jose on this well-flogged issue. If you ever have to shoot someone, the kind of bullet used will be the least of your problems. Ayoob started all this nonsense years ago in a very successful effort to stir the pot and sell magazine articles. He may be a lot of things, but he isn't a lawyer - he's an entertainer dependant upon a charged and sycophantic audience. His life blood is staying in the shooting publics' eye. Remember he came to limited fame, not by feats of arms, (he's never shot anyone or served in the military, never outshot Rob Leatham and his level of shooter) but by tapping away on a typewriter for so long that people (in time) came to accept him as some exalted firearms expert. I've met the man and I've seen him shoot. The legend died right there.
You go, Jose!
John
You go, Jose!
John
Dude, did you actually read Jose's post or are you just chiming in? Jose is the one who cited Ayoob in a favorable manner...go back, read everything again.
Yeah...You go John!!!
![[rofl]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/013.gif "ROFL [rofl]")
I don't- they were the guys that came up with the "one shot stop" crap, right? That told me all I needed to know.
http://www.firearmstactical.com/marshall-sanow-statistical-analysis.htm
There are other articles out there that break down their data, too. Some
of it is just a matter of common sense- I'm not a stats person, but it's
easy enough to shoot holes in their methods- IIRC it started with their
sampling and went downhill from there.
-Mike
Big Joe I did read what Jose wrote. I gathered that Jose is of the mind that what you shoot someone with has no real bearing in a court of law. Ayoob intimates that it does matter. I agree with Jose; that it does not matter what the name of your ammo is or what configuration the bullet is. It's a non-issue and always has been. It's my contention that Ayoob started that foolishness years ago to generate magazine sales. Good for him (Ayoob) that is his job and nobody does it better.
Went back and read every post on this subject. Noted someone recommended using what the local cops use. This is not a bad idea, but remember that 95% of cops are not knowledgable about firearms and ammo. And when they buy service ammo they have a town or city budget number and so purchase the cheapest ammo lot they can get. As long as it has a hollow point and is made by one of the big US companies they cannot go too far wrong. I'm sure some departments have "gun guys" procuring their ammo and do a lot of research on same, but not many and certainly not the several departments I have friends working in.
John
John
Mass-diver
NES Member
Hi Mike,
I've read a number of articles that poke holes in their analysis, some do a better job that others. I'm still searching for better method of predicting stopping power. I don't know if one exists?
