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Cant shoot my carry pistol well

Discussion in 'Training Techniques' started by Joseph Bonavita, Jan 6, 2019.

  1. Supermoto

    Supermoto

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    First step is realizing you are flinching and mentally coming to terms with it. I wouldn't worry about trying to control recoil yet. As Roland said, there really can't be any progress until you stop flinching. Dry fire doesn't help. snaps caps at the range will show that you are flinching, but so does that target...so they don't stop it....it is all mental.

    Shooting is all about keeping the sights on target until the shot breaks.
    Putting the sights on target is easy. Keeping them there is the hard, because there is a mental and physical part. Mental is the flinch, you don't realize you are doing it, your brain freaks out, pushes the gun away and then closes your eyes so you don't know what just happened. This movement is a lot bigger than a trigger pull (physical part) issue. which is the next step
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2019
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  2. cockpitbob

    cockpitbob NES Member

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    So, how to keep the brain from freaking out?

    I just take the brute force approach of shooting more regularly to desensitize the brain. In addition to centered shots, sometimes I can sense when I've got my brain right, but mixing in snap caps gives me bettet feedback because I can see if there is less flinch or zero flinch. It sort of works for me, but I'd like to try something different.
     
  3. Supermoto

    Supermoto

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    Two ways. One is what M1911 has been saying. Keep your eyes open, see the brass eject, see the sparks, hell sometimes you can see the bullet go down range. This forces your brain to stay awake, to take in everything, to watch and record, but not react and not shut down.

    Second is just mentally accepting that you can not stop the noise or the recoil, then both just fade away
     
  4. Roland Deschain

    Roland Deschain NES Member

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    I incorporate a ton of dummy rounds in my range days, but it's not just to catch a flinch... because honestly? If you are shooting fast multiple rounds and you hit a dummy round, the gun will move some. That doesn't mean it's a flinch. It could just be a properly timed push into the gun to keep it flat. That's why you need a good shooter/instructor to recognize the difference, although your target prior to the dummy round should tell you all you need to know.

    When I'm training a flinch out of someone, I prefer to use ALL dummys in the mag, with 1 live round. That way, you are essentially playing Russian Roulette with their brain. You mix them up and load their mags, and they think every shot is going to be 'the one'. So... you are getting conscious reps under pressure that allow them to see more and build good habits. When you hit the live round, pull everything, reset, and start again. It has no value unless their brain thinks the gun is going to go bang. Remember the 4 stages of learning:

    1. Unconscious Incompetence - They don't know they are flinching. This is when it's ok to use just one or two dummies in a mag full of live rounds, to SHOW THEM what is actually happening. (After they know they are flinching, this step is USELESS)
    2. Conscious Incompetence - This is that phase where they finally know they are flinching, and you start working on proper habits. This is when you flip to all dummies and one live.
    3. Conscious Competence - Now they are doing it properly and slowly, but like Supermoto said, they have to really concentrate to the point they are losing situational awareness. At this point start building up to a 50/50 mix of dummies to live rounds. If they start to fail, move back towards a lower ratio of live rounds.
    4. Unconscious Competence - Self Explanatory. Now is the time to move on to other skills that they suck at... and start the process over again.

    Also, the idea that a gun needs to 'surprise' them when it goes off is utter nonsense. Maybe... for like 5 minutes when you are first teaching someone. After that, you need to get them to the idea of 'command detonating' the gun as Dave Harrington calls it. You will never get to upper levels of shooting if you don't understand timing. I teach in this order: Anatomy (building all the foundations of controlling gun), trigger (pressing it clean and flat... even at speed), vision (knowing what alignment you need at various distances), and finally timing... which is the magic that ties it all together when you don't move gun and detonate it when you see JUST ENOUGH to accomplish given task. No more/No Less
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2019
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  5. Supermoto

    Supermoto

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    That is a really good idea. Makes the results a perfect shot being positive reinforcement instead of a dummy flinch being a negative reinforcement. I'm going to steal this :)
     
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  6. Roland Deschain

    Roland Deschain NES Member

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    EXACTLY. It works so well dude. I've been doing it with students for years. Many of them are here
     
  7. johnnymac101

    johnnymac101 NES Member

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    Lots of good advice here, but seeing is believing! Set your phone up to record yourself shooting. I had a friend new to shooting with a huge flinch that he never saw... until I showed him the video! Slo-mo is your friend! Good luck!
     
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  8. AHM

    AHM NES Member

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    Don't just go by my description of it.
    Take a couple of minutes to look it up, particularly for wheelguns,
    in case there are subtle tricks to getting the most out of it.
     
  9. november14

    november14 NES Member

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    #2 was 100% my problem a long time ago, spent a lot of time consciously fixing the grip and then practicing until my grip just "worked" without thought.

     
  10. 40 caliber

    40 caliber NES Member

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  11. headednorth

    headednorth NES Member

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    I would think so but cant say for sure. I'm not a lefty myself and even though I've been looking at this chart for years, others dont seem to be fans of it as evidenced by a couple of "ignore this chart" comments earlier.
     
  12. Woodsy

    Woodsy NES Member

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    Is it a Glock? If so that’s likely the problem, get and H&K or Sig and that will help.
     
  13. andrew1220

    andrew1220 NES Member

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    This! It's taken a lot of time and practice to not increase the grip as I pull the trigger. I know I still do it, especially during a match when my heart is pounding.
     
  14. andrew1220

    andrew1220 NES Member

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    I hate to admit but during IDPA stages that involve weak hand shooting, I have to add some kentucky windage as I tend to pull shots to the right. So I aim ~6 inches to the left of the down zero[laugh]
    Yes I really need to practice weak hand shooting more....
     
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  15. SERE

    SERE NES Life Member NES Member

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    Here is piece of equipment that allows you to isolate your grip by individual fingers.

    this one is the Extra strength conditioner for MA triggers. [laugh]

    Official Home of GRIPMASTER, VIA and PRO Hand & Finger Exercisers – Gripmaster

    Shop Page – Gripmaster

    [​IMG]

    The 'tactical' version is new to me. I don't think the hospital would give me that version for therapy.



     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2019
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  16. AHM

    AHM NES Member

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    Just use the LH version instead of trying to figure it out.
    [​IMG]

    Get one of these, and you can post on NES as you exercise:
    [​IMG]
    (Until you develop tendonitis, at least).
     
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  17. 45collector

    45collector NES Member

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    I shot IDPA @ Old Colony last weekend and did ok, but there was one stage where the array on the right was shot right hand only, and array on the left was shot left hand only. I practice weak hand fairly often (mostly dry firing, but occasionally live fire on the range when I'm not at a competition). Most of my hits on the weak hand only array were down zero's or ones. Then on one shot I anticipated recoil and completely threw the shot, horribly. I don't know why I did it but as soon as the shot broke I was like WTF WAS THAT?!!! and it was a down 5. Missed the target completely and I watched it hit the berm. Didn't even bother to make it up. LOL. I shoot a lot and still, shit like that happens once in a while.
     
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  18. Rob Boudrie

    Rob Boudrie NES Member

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    Tell that to Jerry Miculek :)
     
  19. Joseph Bonavita

    Joseph Bonavita NES Member

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    Hey guys just an update. So I have close to 2,000 rounds through my shield now. I'm pretty sure with such a short sight radius when I pull my trigger my front post is drifting ever so slightly. At 5 yards and lots of concentration I can pull off 3" groups. I also get strained after 200 rounds. I think it's just these little pistols require lots of practice and finesse. I will admit I def flinch with fast firing but not with slow fire. I've been cycling snap caps in.

    ITS JUST SO FRUSTRATING PICKING UP A FULLSIZE IVE NEVER SHOT BEFORE AND NAILING IT WHILE MY CARRY PISTOL WITH 2000 ROUNDS THROUGH IS SO DIFFICULT!
     
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  20. GlockJock

    GlockJock NES Member

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    I'll probably "take it on the chin" for this post, but I'm used to dodging "incoming" whenever I post basically anything on NES but ...
    For years I was frustrated, angry, pissed, curious, flummoxed (whatever the hell that means LOL) etc etc over the fact that my shots always seemed to drift about a quarter inch high plus a quarter inch right .. I friggin practiced practiced practiced, took advice, adjusted, etc, did literally EVERYTHING experienced shooters advised me to do and...still a quarter inch high/quarter inch right... WTF, bang head etc etc ..

    Then someone here posted a semi-sarcastic/semi-serious post: "Why don't you just save yourself the hassle and aim a quarter inch low and a quarter inch left".

    I'll be damned. Now I shoot as good as Sundance when he moves... (well, OK...almost as good)... :D


    View: http://youtu.be/_AoCK5r2TWg
     
  21. slap shot

    slap shot NES Member

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    I know people here will say just keep practicing but it looks like you have, and shoot full sized pistols well. Have you tried improving that trigger? If you've already answered this I apologize, but with a shield, you will see immediate improvement.
     
  22. slap shot

    slap shot NES Member

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    i won't "give it you on the chin" lol, but that seems to be a great "method" at one particular distance only.
     
  23. oldguy68

    oldguy68 NES Member

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    1rst step: Lay off the soy milk..
    2nd step: Try shooting someone else's pistol..LOL[rofl]
     
  24. GlockJock

    GlockJock NES Member

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    Actually works for me at any distance, any fire (slow, rapid, mixed, whatever)... Even shooting at a "tactical" range, fixed targets moving whatever .. I just aim as I mentioned above previously - very slightly left and very slightly low. And people look at how I shoot and say "Wow, that guy can really shoot (etc)..."
    Little do they know that I'm actually "missing" a quarter inch high and quarter inch right with nearly every shot.

    Wise-ass Sicilian wife (who also shoots and carries) says "Hmmm...Did you ever think maybe your brain is just lopsided a little bit and ..."

    Wise-ass.
     
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