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New shooter with a weird problem

Tallahassee

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Almost related to the original post. Friend of mine lost his index finger and part of his middle finger. Maybe the tip of his thumb as well, I will have to look today. Anyways, he obviously uses his middle finger for the trigger, does quite well for missing some digits. Not sure how well he does at home though. :(
 

ReluctantDecoy

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Did this ladies ever use a squirt gun ? Never even used a toy gun ?
I asked him this very question. Actually asked him if he could point out his trigger finger, which he knew was the index. But he also said he shot paintball with his middle finger. So I think he has a history of setting a bad example, but in a trigger sport where you don't have to deal with real recoil.

I can honestly say I’ve never heard of shooting with the middle finger. However since he is new, tell him to do it the right way. He is messing up his grip on the pistol (I assume pistol?) and in the heat on the moment, it may cause problems.
Humans use their index fingers and thumbs more than the others. Your index finger is your strongest finger.
This is my thought as well. Just wanted to get some confirmation that I wasn't steering him in the wrong direction by making him break the form he felt comfortable with. For me, my index finger is the most independent as far as movement is concerned. I get the full range of motion without any of my other fingers reacting. With my middle finger, when I bend it, my ring finger feels like it wants to come along for the ride, and that just translates to front site movement.
 

MisterHappy

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If you want to present it in a form other than, "NO! BAD SHOOTER!" accompanied, or not, with a whack on the nose with a rolled-up newspaper, try, "I know that your way seems better, but most people do it this way, because it works. After you've been shooting for a while, you may want to change things, but for several hundred years, it's been done this way."

When I have a new shooter at the Trap field, I use this approach, to get the basics of stance, mount, etc., etc.

Give them a good, basic, "normal" foundation, and let them grow into it.

One guy at my club has the weirdest stance, and mount. I'd tell him to change, but he out-shoots me (and almost everyone else!)
 

Mtn_Guy

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Ask your guy if he golfs and knows how to properly hold a club... proper hand position is key, and it is awkward a F*ck... but it works. You know why?, because it is correct. Does it feel natural? Hell no. Can I swing a club consistently? Yup. Why... because training.

Training scars aren’t always visible at first, but when this guy “accidentally” has an ND, hopefully the barrel won’t be “accidentally” be pointed at someone because... you know, why does muzzle discipline matter anyways???

If it were me, I’d tell him learn the correct way, or don’t come shooting with me anymore. I hate to be a d*ck, but I also choose who I take to the range.

My kiddo shoots the blow-back M&P style pellet gun in the backyard... occasionally he’ll get lazy and want to rest his elbows on the deck railing... I tell him fix his form, or he’s done shooting until he’s ready to do it properly. Tough love.
 

WPDC13

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what about people with missing or damaged trigger fingers? should they not be allowed to shoot? what if you were to injure or lose your trigger finger in a firefight, frankly I think being able to use a middle finger is as important a skill as using your off hand
Master Gunnery Sergeant Thomas Beckett had a confirmed kill in Panama in 1993 using his middle finger with a handgun.
 

whacko

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what about people with missing or damaged trigger fingers? should they not be allowed to shoot? what if you were to injure or lose your trigger finger in a firefight, frankly I think being able to use a middle finger is as important a skill as using your off hand
I know a guy that is missing the tip of his "trigger finger" on his right hand and uses his middle finger. He shoots well.
 

ReluctantDecoy

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Ask your guy if he golfs and knows how to properly hold a club... proper hand position is key, and it is awkward a F*ck... but it works. You know why?, because it is correct. Does it feel natural? Hell no. Can I swing a club consistently? Yup. Why... because training.

Training scars aren’t always visible at first, but when this guy “accidentally” has an ND, hopefully the barrel won’t be “accidentally” be pointed at someone because... you know, why does muzzle discipline matter anyways???

If it were me, I’d tell him learn the correct way, or don’t come shooting with me anymore. I hate to be a d*ck, but I also choose who I take to the range.

My kiddo shoots the blow-back M&P style pellet gun in the backyard... occasionally he’ll get lazy and want to rest his elbows on the deck railing... I tell him fix his form, or he’s done shooting until he’s ready to do it properly. Tough love.
He wasn't resistant to changing. It was more my novice level of showing someone how to shoot, and not knowing if I should correct this or not given his unusually high ability with his middle finger. As mentioned, I did think that correction was the way to go, but sought to get a second on that opinion from people who have experience training others. And it looks like the majority of people say to correct it now, so that's what will happen. No tough love needed yet.

He does play golf, so that's a great analogy. I'm going to steal that one. Thanks!
 

allen-1

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what about people with missing or damaged trigger fingers? should they not be allowed to shoot? what if you were to injure or lose your trigger finger in a firefight, frankly I think being able to use a middle finger is as important a skill as using your off hand

what about people with missing or damaged trigger fingers? should they not be allowed to shoot?
I shot Steel Challenge last weekend. One of the guys on my squad has no fingers on his left hand. Literally. He only has a thumb. He shot two tricked out Ruger 10/22's, one with irons, one with optics. I didn't notice his hand until I was ROing him and watching him load. He took first and second place in the match; he's a GrandMaster.

what if you were to injure or lose your trigger finger in a firefight, frankly I think being able to use a middle finger is as important a skill as using your off hand
You're really reaching here. I train with my offhand because it's conceivable that my strong hand, (wrist or arm), might get damaged, but I wouldn't train using my middle finger to pull a trigger on the off chance that I might lose my trigger finger.

Furthermore, that's not what the original question was - the question is whether a shooter should normally use his second finger as his trigger finger. My personal opinion - "nope". I think it leads to a poorer grip and potential interference with the slide.
 

moojpg2

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Unless he has a physical reason why, he should be using his index finger, with his finger far enough into the trigger guard that his finger is flat against the side of the gun. Not finger "tip." It's all about maximizing contact with the grip of the gun.
 

67ray

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Would encourage him to try the proper grip.

But, Jimi Hendrix played his guitar upside down and backwards. You gonna say he did it wrong ?
.
 

ReluctantDecoy

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Would encourage him to try the proper grip.

But, Jimi Hendrix played his guitar upside down and backwards. You gonna say he did it wrong ?
.
Jimi Hendrix was also a naturally gifted guitar savant. If my co-worker ends up as the next Jerry Miculek, I suppose he can shoot however he wants at that point. But to get there I think he's going to need proper technique first.
 

67ray

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Jimi Hendrix was also a naturally gifted guitar savant. If my co-worker ends up as the next Jerry Miculek, I suppose he can shoot however he wants at that point. But to get there I think he's going to need proper technique first.

Exactly - you were saying how well he did the first time out - even though he was doing it 'wrong'. Maybe you are looking at the next Jimi and don't know it yet.
Jimi didn't start playing 'right' and then switch over to 'wrong'

.
 

AHM

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someone with no experience cannot say "I have a new idea about how to do this thing that thousands of people have done before me, and I'm going to make up my own new way of doing it."
Tell that to the winning (World Cup?) skier who grew up with boots so crappy
that they couldn't be tightened. Once (she?) made the big time,
she got real boots, but couldn't ski worth a damn if they were tight.

All her wins were racing with boot so loose
that her feet wobbled all around inside of them.

Talk about zero situational awareness.. not one person in that picture even sees a gun or Ruby advancing. Room is full of cops and reporters. They’re trained to see..
Reporters "trained to see". [rofl2]
 

ReluctantDecoy

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Tell that to the winning (World Cup?) skier who grew up with boots so crappy
that they couldn't be tightened. Once (she?) made the big time,
she got real boots, but couldn't ski worth a damn if they were tight.

All her wins were racing with boot so loose
that her feet wobbled all around inside of them.


Reporters "trained to see". [rofl2]

She must have had crazy developed tibialis anterior muscles (front shin muscle that burns like hell after a day on the mountain) from those loose boots. So much so, her innate overcompensation translated to unwanted movement in properly tight boots. But I wonder, if she had proper equipment and thus proper technique from the beginning, would she have obliterated records given her natural ability to overcome?
 

AHM

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... I wonder, if she had proper equipment and thus proper technique from the beginning, would she have obliterated records given her natural ability to overcome?
Stands to reason; no contest.

Jus' sayin'.


And I did go looking, but I can't find a whisper of that story.
I think it was a woman, but I could be wrong.
 

MaduroBU

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Honestly the reason to use the index finger is that it's easier with a mechanical trigger, and is against ergonomics. A design using an electronic trigger could theoretically use anything to discharge the weapon (though there are some pretty obvious constraints on that for safety). I am oddly reminded of Miyamoto Mushashi's writing on gripping a sword, which boils down to using chiefly the index, middle and pinky fingers to hold the sword with a relatively light grip by the ring finger. If he was right, then a ring finger trigger might be the best of all.
 
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Honestly the reason to use the index finger is that it's easier with a mechanical trigger, and is against ergonomics. A design using an electronic trigger could theoretically use anything to discharge the weapon (though there are some pretty obvious constraints on that for safety). I am oddly reminded of Miyamoto Mushashi's writing on gripping a sword, which boils down to using chiefly the index, middle and pinky fingers to hold the sword with a relatively light grip by the ring finger. If he was right, then a ring finger trigger might be the best of all.
I have wondered about the viability of a competition use only electronic trigger that uses a laser beam and sensor. Break the beam in the trigger guard going to the sensor and the gun fires - zero trigger pull weight. Naturally, there are some safety issues to overcome so the gun could be holstered safely, and such a system would probably be unsuitable for a defensive weapon.

Ideally, electronic primers but the total failure of the Remington EtronX priming system suggests that commercial viability would necessitate the electronic initiation trigger a traditional impact based primer discharge.
 

rudiewhitebwoy

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When I have time, I try to mix it up.
With a pistol/revolver 1 of every 5 mags I'll shoot righty, it's fairly easy. I do the same with a rifle, it is difficult. I've fired a rifle with my middle finger with either hand, a little practice in the event my trigger finger is injured. I also practice loading mags and racking the slide one handed for the same reason.
 

MaduroBU

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I have wondered about the viability of a competition use only electronic trigger that uses a laser beam and sensor. Break the beam in the trigger guard going to the sensor and the gun fires - zero trigger pull weight. Naturally, there are some safety issues to overcome so the gun could be holstered safely, and such a system would probably be unsuitable for a defensive weapon.

Ideally, electronic primers but the total failure of the Remington EtronX priming system suggests that commercial viability would necessitate the electronic initiation trigger a traditional impact based primer discharge.
I think that EtronX was a great idea that failed for 2 reasons: 1) the valid concern that a one-off proprietary system would leave early adopters high and dry if it didn't catch on (it's easier to get a regular primer RIGHT NOW than it was to get an Etron-X primer in 2019) and 2) the poorly thought out and unnecessarily complicated electronics. A lot of folks, myself included, looked at the circuit board, key, 9 volt battery and LED in the butt stock and thought "That would be great if they just made it simple". Fundamentally, you need a battery/capacitor, a transformer, a high voltage capacitor, a trigger switch and a safety interrupt. I still think that an ultracapacitor with an automatic charging solution (i.e. imagine a linear generator built into an AR buffer tube or something similar) is a much more durable idea as even lithium batteries hate the cold. Finally, Remington likely tried EtronX only on a bolt action because its use on a semi-automatic would render software the only difference between fully and semi-automatic. The BATF probably turned the hairy eyeball upon the idea that some kid with an Arduino and a soldering iron could turn a semi-auto rifle into a machine gun.

None of those things mean that the idea is bad, just that Remington did a half-way job on their engineering while there are some legal hurdles to overcome. I'd retrofit my M70 in a heartbeat if there were a reliable system to install and I could lay up enough primers.
 

1776

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AHM

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I have wondered about the viability of a competition use only electronic trigger that uses a laser beam and sensor. Break the beam in the trigger guard going to the sensor and the gun fires - zero trigger pull weight.
Trigger pull weight will be nonzero;
but you can minimize it by using
the reddest laser that you can buy...
 
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