Can I buy a gun for my friend? - Question to be resolved definitively by SCOTUS.

dcmdon

dcmdon

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I understand the issue is that he and his uncle arranged to buy the gun in advance, so the issue at hand is one about straw purchases, but how is it that Abramski bought a handgun in VA and sold it to his Uncle in PA without using an FFL?

Was he a resident of both states?

I sk because in the Truth About Guns article:

The states’ amicus brief is in support of a former Roanoke, Va., police officer, Bruce Abramski, who purchased a gun in 2009 using a law enforcement discount and sold it to his elderly uncle, who lived in Pennsylvania. Both Abramski and his uncle could legally own firearms and made the transaction in accordance with Pennsylvania gun laws, including a background check of the purchaser. However, federal authorities prosecuted Abramski on the grounds that he made false statements on the gun purchase form.

“Our Office is very concerned about the federal government’s targeting of law-abiding gun buyers,” Morrisey said. “The federal government is attempting to circumvent Congress and set aside state regulations that don’t prevent private gun sales, and instead make sure there is a federal record of every gun bought or sold in the United States. While no one wants guns to end up in the hands of a potential or real criminal, the administration’s interpretation oversteps the law and could make criminals out of innocent citizens.”
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Quiet said:
I understand the issue is that he and his uncle arranged to buy the gun in advance, so the issue at hand is one about straw purchases, but how is it that Abramski bought a handgun in VA and sold it to his Uncle in PA without using an FFL?

Was he a resident of both states?

I sk because in the Truth About Guns article:
Click to expand...




He used a FFL.

He bought it, shipped to an FFL in PA and his Uncle did the transfer with a local FFL. Complete with NICS check and Form ATF4473

The issue is the question on the 4473 that asks if you are buying the gun for yourself.
 
dcmdon said:
He used a FFL.

He bought it, shipped to an FFL in PA and his Uncle did the transfer with a local FFL. Complete with NICS check and Form ATF4473

The issue is the question on the 4473 that asks if you are buying the gun for yourself.
Click to expand...

The answer is yes.. if you buy a gun.. you own it. until you sell it.
 
Ryan_BAO said:
The answer is yes.. if you buy a gun.. you own it. until you sell it.
Click to expand...

exactly. This is such bullshit. Just more backdoor gun control by this criminal administration. Can't wait until this limp dick shitbag is out of office. Although I'm not very hopeful about who his replacement will be...either a POS statist democrat or a POS statist republican.

I think it's time to just water the damned liberty tree already.
 
This has always been a back door attempt to make a criminal out of nothing. Absolute bullshit.
 
Why are things so complicated, the law should be defined as only transfers to prohibited persons, who even cares if two properly licensed, non prohibited individuals trade legal firearms

What a waist of time this is, but maybe some police who though they were immune to the stupid gun control laws will wake up and not be so quick to support new anti legislation
 
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I'd like to know how the ATF connected the dots on this one. Seems to me that a little prudent interval in the time, and no red flags would have been raised. Not saying that the law is correct, but it was a legitimate and presumably routine sale. Either somebody at the ATF had waaaay to much time on their hands, or someone tipped them off. (probably the former but wouldn't be surprised at the latter).

Funny thing, if I purchase a firearm, who is to say that five minutes later I become disenchanted by it and decide to sell it? I'd like to see the original court transcripts.
 
dcmdon said:
He used a FFL.

He bought it, shipped to an FFL in PA and his Uncle did the transfer with a local FFL. Complete with NICS check and Form ATF4473

The issue is the question on the 4473 that asks if you are buying the gun for yourself.
Click to expand...

I think he drove up to PA from VA to visit instead of shipping it but the rest of what you said is correct. The two of them went to a FFL and ran the check and did the transfer through the FFL.

I don't know how broad this decision will be but I but it's a strong majority i.e. 7-2 or maybe even 9-0. I don't think the liberals on the panel will find anything wrong with what this "defendant" did. It's unbelievable that the ATF would go after this guy. I hope we get disband the ATF very soon. What a bunch of morons.
 
Disband the ATF? You're a funny guy [rofl]

Seeing another 5-4 decision would not surprise me in the least. In any case the decision will be intentionally vague as to release the defendant, but not strike down the law or stop police from being able to harass people with it.

Kind of like how Heller and McDonald did nothing to stop AWB or similar bans, licensing in general or even suitability.

Basically one guy goes free but tyranny remains in place unphased.
 
Hoover said:
I think he drove up to PA from VA to visit instead of shipping it but the rest of what you said is correct. The two of them went to a FFL and ran the check and did the transfer through the FFL.

I don't know how broad this decision will be but I but it's a strong majority i.e. 7-2 or maybe even 9-0. I don't think the liberals on the panel will find anything wrong with what this "defendant" did. It's unbelievable that the ATF would go after this guy. I hope we get disband the ATF very soon. What a bunch of morons.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the correction. Either way, it was transferred in accordance with state and federal laws to the uncle.

The question: Are you the actual transferee/buyer of the firearm?

I've been told that a big part of it has to do with whether the other person gives you money in advance to buy the gun. So if the uncle gave him a check for $475 and the gun cost $475, it would be easy to put 2 and 2 together.

Normally, it would be very difficult to prove. Since there is no law against buying a gun for resale even in today's climate. As long as the buyer isn't known to you at the time you buy it.

Also, I odn't see how their decision could be so narrow as to be useless. Fingers crossed I'm not wrong.

Don
 
gearjunky13 said:
Why are things so complicated, the law should be defined as only transfers to prohibited persons, who even cares if two properly licensed, non prohibited individuals trade legal firearms

What a waist of time this is, but maybe some police who though they were immune to the stupid gun control laws will wake up and not be so quick to support new anti legislation
Click to expand...

That's basically what the case SCOTUS will decide is. Everyone, I guess except a few morons at the ATF and justice dept, understood the straw purchase law was to prohibit legally allowed gun buyers/owners from selling or giving to a prohibited person. There just isn't a crime here at all to normally thinking people. If someone wanted to buy 100 guns and resell them to non prohibited persons, what's the issue? The people could buy them at a FFL so where are they stopping some crime or criminal from getting a gun? Because it's so clear, I think even the libs will go with the conservatives here.


mark056 said:
Now I get it...this guy was under a microscope...thanks for the link!
Click to expand...

This guy could be the biggest dirtbag in the world, that won't matter. SCOTUS isn't a district trial court where character may influence their decisions. They case before SCOTUS is a legal question and they will look at the legal issues only. The one narrow-ness they may do is to allow a purchase and quick resale if it goes through a FFL. In this case because it's across state lines, it needed to go through the FFL anyway.
 
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Hoover said:
This guy could be the biggest dirtbag in the world, that won't matter. SCOTUS isn't a district trial court where character may influence their decisions. They case before SCOTUS is a legal question and they will look at the legal issues only. The one narrow-ness they may do is to allow a purchase and quick resale if it goes through a FFL. In this case because it's across state lines, it needed to go through the FFL anyway.
Click to expand...

I think Mark's point was that the fact that his purchase was even noticed was collateral damage of the other investigation.
 
Hoover said:
That's basically what the case SCOTUS will decide is. Everyone, I guess except a few morons at the ATF and justice dept, understood the straw purchase law was to prohibit legally allowed gun buyers/owners from selling or giving to a prohibited person. There just isn't a crime here at all to normally thinking people. If someone wanted to buy 100 guns and resell them to non prohibited persons, what's the issue? The people could buy them at a FFL so where are they stopping some crime or criminal from getting a gun? Because it's so clear, I think even the libs will go with the conservatives here. This guy could be the biggest dirtbag in the world, that won't matter. SCOTUS isn't a district trial court where character may influence their decisions. They case before SCOTUS is a legal question and they will look at the legal issues only. The one narrow-ness they may do is to allow a purchase and quick resale if it goes through a FFL. In this case because it's across state lines, it needed to go through the FFL anyway.
Click to expand...


Hoover,

I have a pretty good idea about how the SCOTUS works and amazingly so do a remarkable number of people on this forum , really. My comment was confined to how he came on the ATF radar to begin with.

Tell me, pre-law or perhaps a slight pre-disposition towards grandiose verbosity? [wink] no matter your heart is in the right place despite the excessive verbiage, and when I say that (because I do not practice brevity myself) then it might be cause for concern. It just irks me when I am quoted out of context or intent.

All the best !
 

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