CA Lawsuit Filed Over Gun Roster

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(I did a search and didn't come up with this. If it's been posted before, my apologies)

To those of us in MA, much of this will sound familiar. Scroll down to the feature story about lawsuits. For those who can't access the link, here's the pertinent part:

Lawsuits, we go lawsuits

Yesterday, the Second Amendment Foundation, the Calguns Foundation and four California residents filed suit that challenged a California state law that bans handguns based on a listing of "certified" handguns approved by the state.

For years, the state has maintained that sort of list, requiring the notation on many firearms ads and materials that reads "Not approved for sale in California". In the new lawsuit, the plaintiffs assert the law is unconstitutional, based on the Supreme Court's ruling that the protects handguns that ordinary people traditionally use for self-defense, and the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals' decision that the Second Amendment applies to both state and local governments.

The plaintiffs in the case are represented by Alan Gura. He says California "tells Ivan Peña that his rights have an expiration date based on payment of a government fee. Americans are not limited to a government list of approved books, or approved religions," he said. "A handgun protected by the Second Amendment does not need to appear on any government-approved list and cannot be banned because a manufacturer does not pay a special annual fee."

"The Para Ordnance P-13 was once approved for sale in California," Peña noted, "but now that a manufacturer didn't pay a yearly fee, California claims the gun I want to own has somehow become 'unsafe'."

"The Glock-21 is the handgun I would choose for home defense, but California has decided the version I need is unacceptable," says plaintiff Roy Vargas, "I was born without a right arm below my elbow and therefore the new ambidextrous version of the Glock-21 is the safest one for me. The identical model designed for right hand use is available in California, but I can't use it."

The other two plaintiffs in the case have similar stories.

Doña Croston's handgun would be allowed if it were black, green, or brown, but her bi-tone version is supposedly 'unsafe' merely based on color. "I didn't realize that my constitutional rights depended on color. What is it about two colors that makes the gun I want to purchase 'unsafe'?"

Brett Thomas seeks to own the same model of handgun that the Supreme Court ordered District of Columbia officials to register for Dick Heller. However, that particular model is no longer manufactured, and its maker is no longer available to process the handgun's certification through the bureaucracy. "There is only one model of handgun that the Supreme Court has explicitly ruled is protected by the Second Amendment and yet California will not allow me to purchase that gun," said Mr. Thomas.

Attorneys representing the group say the "approved" list in California is, essentially, gun control by degrees. "Gradually," says co-counsel Donald Kilmer, the list of "so-called 'guns' will shrink to zero."

I know I'm probably tilting at windmills, but hopefully, if this case has a good outcome for California gun owners, it will translate into something good for those of us in the People's Republic.

Hey, I can dream, can't I? [sad]
 
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And it has an ADA component to it. I hope the suit is based on ADA as well as the other factors. That 10# trigger pull requirement is hell on my Wife with her Carpal Tunnel problem.
 
I'd support any organization who tries to pursue this in any state.

Good for them.

Enough of saying "it's about time".

It's about time we all started doing something about it ourselves.
 
GOAL should be doing this in MA. Doubt they will though.

It would behoove them to wait and see what happens in CA. If a precedent is set there it could save them a lot of $ in legal fees.
 
And it has an ADA component to it. I hope the suit is based on ADA as well as the other factors. That 10# trigger pull requirement is hell on my Wife with her Carpal Tunnel problem.

No kidding. Senior citizens, women, people with small frames/weak hands, and people who want to be able to hit their target all benefit from light trigger pulls.

So I take it you'll be filing the lawsuit in MA then?

[rofl]

It would behoove them to wait and see what happens in CA. If a precedent is set there it could save them a lot of $ in legal fees.

Humor aside, I agree. Look at what the NRA did in San Francisco and Chicago post-Heller.
 
No kidding. Senior citizens, women, people with small frames/weak hands, and people who want to be able to hit their target all benefit from light trigger pulls.



[rofl]



Humor aside, I agree. Look at what the NRA did in San Francisco and Chicago post-Heller.

enlighten me, please. Seriously, I avoid any news west on the Mississippi. What did the NRA do?
 
Some additional thoughts...

I am hopeful about this case for the following reasons:

1) The plaintiffs seem to have been picked carefully, and all seem to have 'standing' on the issue.

2) One of the plaintiffs cannot own a gun exactly like the one that Heller couldn't personally own/register. (This is a side issue, but still pertinent)

3) At least one of the plaintiffs has a disability. (See note in parentheses below)

4) I think at least one of the plaintiffs is a woman or minority. (Again, this shouldn't matter, but the PC aspect doesn't hurt)

5) One of the reasons the CA roster is being challenged is that it bans guns on purely cosmetic reasons. Another reason is that the roster bans guns that are commonly accepted and utilized for self defense purposes. (Sound familiar, MA residents?)

As bad as the CA roster is, it is at least clear cut; either a gun is approved or it isn't. In essence they only have one list to deal with. Here in the PRM we have what amounts to two lists; an official one and a non-existent second one promoted by our AG under the guise of consumer safety. I see many similarities between the two states in this area.

A victory in CA may well lay the groundwork for a successful challenge of the PRM restrictions. I'm also willing to bet that both nanny states will fight this tooth and nail. Whichever side loses, I am sure there will be appeals.

One thing I'm unclear about is at what level the CA case is being filed, state or Federal. I will be looking for further developments and keeping my fingers crossed.

If this battle is eventually fought in the PRM expect it to be lengthy and expensive. While the tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots or tyrants, it must also be occasionally fertilized with $$$$. I'm going to start putting some money aside so I can help if this battle eventually arrives here.

Something to think about...
 
From what I understand you can send funds in any form to the Calguns foundation. Tell them SAS sent ya.
http://www.calgunsfoundation.org/

BTW It was my idea for the group thats known as the calguns foundation to become a foundation and not just be a 501C3 tax exempt org.

That I will take credit for.

BTW2 This is the crap that we in California have to put up with.
http://certguns.doj.ca.gov/



Awesome.

What can we do to support this? Is GOAL doing anything?
 
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And it has an ADA component to it. I hope the suit is based on ADA as well as the other factors. That 10# trigger pull requirement is hell on my Wife with her Carpal Tunnel problem.

That's why they have these people called gunsmiths who can lower the trigger pull for you.
 

You're welcome.

That's why they have these people called gunsmiths who can lower the trigger pull for you.

That's not the point. When you buy a drill or a nailgun at the store, should laws require it to have a 10+ pound "trigger pull"?

It's a small inconvenience to a gun owner who knows a good gunsmith or who has the know how to lighten triggers themselves, but it's wrong to make a gun difficult to use for regular everyday people.
 
From what I understand you can send funds in any form to the Calguns foundation. Tell them SAS sent ya.
http://www.calgunsfoundation.org/

BTW It was my idea for the group thats known as the calguns foundation to become a foundation and not just be a 501C3 tax exempt org.

That I will take credit for.

BTW2 This is the crap that we in California have to put up with.
http://certguns.doj.ca.gov/

Thanks, SAS. From the link that Sam posted:

Donations Welcome

>Snip<

Until we can get our accounts established please mail checks to:

The Calguns Foundation
c/o The Law Offices of Don Kilmer
1645 Willow Street, Suite 150
San Jose, CA 95125

Please make checks payable to “The Law Offices of Don Kilmer – Client Trust Account” and put “The Calguns Foundation” on the memo line.
 
What can we do to support this?

You could consider becoming a member of the Second Amendment Foundation, if you are not already. They seem to do a lot of good work nationally and in individual states.

www.saf.org
 
Wow, glad to see our friends in CA are taking on the big bad monster. I hope they win, and I hope we can shove the result of their case up the AGs @$$.
 
Interesting implications for MA handgun regulations..

Just got an email from CCRKBA with the following text (below) - about how the CA handgun regulations are being challenged, sounds like they have very similar rules out there to what we have to deal with here in MA.

SAF, CALGUNS FOUNDATION CHALLENGES CALIFORNIA HANDGUN BAN SCHEME

The Second Amendment Foundation, The Calguns Foundation and four California residents today filed a lawsuit challenging a California state law and regulatory scheme that arbitrarily bans handguns based on a roster of "certified" handguns approved by the State. This case parallels a similar case filed in Washington, DC, Hanson v. District of Columbia.

California uses this list despite a ruling by the U.S. Supreme Court last summer that protects handguns that ordinary people traditionally use for self-defense, and a recent ruling by the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals that the Second Amendment applies to state and local governments. The California scheme will eventually ban the purchase of almost all new handguns.

Your immediate help is needed to protect your Second Amendment Rights.

SAF needs your most generous donations today to fight the state of California. The foundation is helping to fund our legal efforts with a matching grant to double every dollar you donate up to $75,000.

Select Here to Contribute Now!
https://secure.conservativedonations.com/ccrkba/?a=2344

Attorney Alan Gura, representing the plaintiffs in this case, noted that California "tells Ivan Peña that his rights have an expiration date based on payment of a government fee. Americans are not limited to a government list of approved books, or approved religions," he said. "A handgun protected by the Second Amendment does not need to appear on any government-approved list and cannot be banned because a manufacturer does not pay a special annual fee."

"The Para Ordnance P-13 was once approved for sale in California," Peña noted, "but now that a manufacturer didn't pay a yearly fee, California claims the gun I want to own has somehow become 'unsafe'."

"The Glock-21 is the handgun I would choose for home defense, but California has decided the version I need is unacceptable. I was born without a right arm below my elbow and therefore the new ambidextrous version of the Glock-21 is the safest one for me. The identical model designed for right hand use is available in California, but I can't use it," said plaintiff Roy Vargas.

Added SAF founder Alan Gottlieb, "The Supreme Court's decision is crystal clear: Handguns that are used by people for self-defense and other lawful purposes cannot be banned, whether the State likes it or not. California needs to accept the Second Amendment reality."

Co-counsel Jason Davis remarked, "The California Handgun Roster has always been about making the possession of handguns for self defense more difficult by imposing arbitrary and unconstitutional restrictions that limit choice and increase the cost of exercising a fundamental right."

Joining plaintiffs Peña and Vargas are Doña Croston and Brett Thomas. Doña Croston's handgun would be allowed if it were black, green, or brown, but her bi-tone version is supposedly 'unsafe' merely based on color. "I didn't realize that my constitutional rights depended on color. What is it about two colors that makes the gun I want to purchase 'unsafe'?"

Brett Thomas seeks to own the same model of handgun that the Supreme Court ordered District of Columbia officials to register for Dick Heller. However, that particular model is no longer manufactured, and its maker is no longer available to process the handgun's certification through the bureaucracy.

"There is only one model of handgun that the Supreme Court has explicitly ruled is protected by the Second Amendment and yet California will not allow me to purchase that gun," said Mr. Thomas.

"The so-called 'safe' gun list is just another gun-grabbing gimmick," said co-counsel Donald Kilmer. "California can't get around the Second Amendment, as incorporated, by declaring most normal guns 'unsafe,' and gradually shrinking the number of so-called 'safe' guns to zero."

SAF can't fund this new legal suit or continue those in progress without your financial help and involvement.

Our lawsuits cost an estimated $240,000 each and the five other lawsuits we have going on could cost well over an additional $650,000 alone!

I must have support from loyal SAF Supporters like you to go-ahead with our attorney, Alan Gura, who won the Supreme Court case that overturned the Washington. D.C. gun ban.

And I promise you, we won't pay any attorney one cent more than we have to. I will not allow any lawyer to get rich off the money you contribute. This case will protect gun rights in all 50 states.

Your immediate tax-deductible gift of $500, $100, $50, $25 or whatever you can afford, will be necessary to fund our legal suit in defense of your right to own and use a gun for self-defense.

SAF needs your most generous donations today to fight the state of California. The foundation is helping to fund our legal efforts with a matching grant to double every dollar you donate up to $75,000.

Select Here to Contribute Now!
https://secure.conservativedonations.com/ccrkba/?a=2344

Get more facts on the semi-automatic firearms issue at the CCRKBA website www.ccrkba.org

Please let me know your decision right away. Thank you.

Sincerely,

Alan Gottlieb
Chairman
Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms
 
I think this has been brought up before, as for impact in Mass, it's hard to say since that's CA and the case would need to make it to the USSC before it starts to open doors here.
 
I don't think the initial post addresses the USSC requirement that the properly licensed gun owner is present whenever the the unlocked gun is stored.

I'm lost. What does storage have to do with "The List"? The latter of which seems to be point of this latest legal challenge and the former is not mentioned.
 
One big diff between CA and MA Lists:

- CA charges an annual "fee" for the gun to stay on the List.

- MA, once it is on the List it will stay there forever unless something is found that points out that the gun actually fails to meet the requirements.

- CA makes it so that a mfr, once they drop a gun from production, won't bother paying to remain on the List. That means that the gun you bought a few years ago in CA that was approved suddenly can no longer be transferred to anyone in CA (NO private transactions for handguns allowed in CA, even C&R handguns must go thru Dealer FFL).

A win would be a nice step, but it wouldn't impact MA laws for quite a while (USSC ruling required) at best.
 
I don't think the initial post addresses the USSC requirement that the properly licensed gun owner is present whenever the the unlocked gun is stored.

Whatever you are talking about has no bearing on the California case because gun owner licensing does not exist there.
 
This is incorrect.

While ever since about 1990-1991 or so Dealers with a FFL have been required by law to be involved in all transfers including (PPT) Private party transfers are still allowed by law and are exempted from the California DOJ roster of safe handguns.

We can even have Mac 10's and Aftermarket Uzi's if they aren't on the California AWB list and they are configured correctly in accordance with SB23.


Roster of Handguns Certified for Sale
http://certguns.doj.ca.gov/

One big diff between CA and MA Lists:

- CA charges an annual "fee" for the gun to stay on the List.

- MA, once it is on the List it will stay there forever unless something is found that points out that the gun actually fails to meet the requirements.

- CA makes it so that a mfr, once they drop a gun from production, won't bother paying to remain on the List. That means that the gun you bought a few years ago in CA that was approved suddenly can no longer be transferred to anyone in CA (NO private transactions for handguns allowed in CA, even C&R handguns must go thru Dealer FFL).

A win would be a nice step, but it wouldn't impact MA laws for quite a while (USSC ruling required) at best.
 
One big diff between CA and MA Lists:

- CA charges an annual "fee" for the gun to stay on the List.

- MA, once it is on the List it will stay there forever unless something is found that points out that the gun actually fails to meet the requirements.

- CA makes it so that a mfr, once they drop a gun from production, won't bother paying to remain on the List. That means that the gun you bought a few years ago in CA that was approved suddenly can no longer be transferred to anyone in CA (NO private transactions for handguns allowed in CA, even C&R handguns must go thru Dealer FFL).

A win would be a nice step, but it wouldn't impact MA laws for quite a while (USSC ruling required) at best.

SAS confirmed what I suspected on the private xfers, but one other thing I would disagree with you on is the impact of this case, once it gets to the federal level. Assuming the law gets modified as being capricious and arbitrary (ie; colors, etc;) and CA is forced to come up with a list of specific, definable parameters that a gun has to meet, period, our list then opens up so becka can get her S&W11 in whatever form she wants it, etc. It also starts to hone in on the infernal AG regs. No longer will she be able to have wishy washy definitions of what something can be to meet the requirement. She will have to sit down, write the requirements down in a way that it is clear if something meets the definition or not.

There is still a lot of upside here. Once this happens, the uncertainty goes away and the market opens up. Because make no mistake, all of the uncertainty in the market here is what drives H&K, Glock, etc away and not the regulations per se. S&W is so comfy here because it is a local company (and their past traitor status I am sure) and Ruger as well. They get away with crap because of who they are, not because of what they make. Let's face it, how is beretta's chambered round indicator any different from the Glock one???
 
SAS, I think we are splitting hairs, but "I" don't consider it a "private transaction" (or FTF) if an FFL is involved. I was aware of what you stated and that is why I stated it the way I did. In New England I doubt many would consider it a "private sale" if an FFL had to be involved. But you do have a "leg up" in bypassing the CA Roster on these type transactions . . . in MA folks are sunk if they have to involve an FFL and can't PROVE that the gun was registered in MA pre-10/21/1998 (unless it is on the MA List).

Terra, sorry I wish you were correct. NO ruling in a CA Court holds any water in a MA Court! Not even an Appellate ruling in the 9th Ckt (Fed). Every Fed Ckt Court is their own "island" and that is why the USSC sometimes opts to take a case that has had contrary rulings in different circuits.

A ruling in CA would certainly help any further legal action in MA, but it certainly doesn't automatically change anything in MA.
 
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