Buying a scope for long range use. MOA or Milliradian ?

[mac1911]

After the first couple of pages, I picked up on a theme that has me wondering about something. Sorry if this is a partial derail, but hopefully I'm not the only one here that doesn't know this. anyway, why would scope manufacturers mix up the graduation adjustments between the knobs and the layout of the reticule? In other words, I understand logically "why" one would want them to be mil/mil, or moa/moa, but why wouldn't they match automatically when you buy a particular scope in either type? Is there some arcane advantage for mixing and matching. Seems that it would make calculations a huge headache, but maybe I'm missing something...

I'm going to guess its more of "mil dot style reticle"
Things I learned the hardway. Wasted a lot of ammo and missed shots.
1. You need to know the actual distance between each dot and at what magX the manufacture sets this at. Less expensive "mil dot " style scopes can be well anything but actual mil.
2. The 2 scopes I have all be it not expensive are set at 10x and a 3.5" bull fits nice
Between the mil dot centers. Not understanding or seeing the change when you go to 24x the 3.5 inch dot now spans almost all the dots. This if you don't know any better would lead you to think the target is closer than it is or huge at distance useing the mil. My other scope I had to figure out the spacing myself and found 7x on my 4x16 to be darn close to actual mil.
If you get a front focal plane you you don't need to worry about this stuff.
just make sure the dots are true.
The more I read about scopes the more hesitant I have become to drop good money on a decent front focal mil dot.

http://tedsholdover.com/2013/10/13/my-trip-to-vortex-optics/ again most of my scope ecsperience comes from pelgun shooting. Just have easier access and time to do more of it than center fire. It all the same. You just need to apply your ballistics to your needs.

 

[Artifact]

Mil/Mil First Focal Plane and call it a day, keep it simple.

 

[Artifact]

I will give you a hint,

1/4 MOA are slightly more precise than say 1/10 mil. There are those that shoot target papers and those that shoot people.

This reminds me of inches/yards vs cm/meters.

A lot of scope companies are moving away from having Mil/MOA and sticking with matching reticle and turrets.

Lastly Mil scopes are Mil Spec

After the first couple of pages, I picked up on a theme that has me wondering about something. Sorry if this is a partial derail, but hopefully I'm not the only one here that doesn't know this. anyway, why would scope manufacturers mix up the graduation adjustments between the knobs and the layout of the reticule? In other words, I understand logically "why" one would want them to be mil/mil, or moa/moa, but why wouldn't they match automatically when you buy a particular scope in either type? Is there some arcane advantage for mixing and matching. Seems that it would make calculations a huge headache, but maybe I'm missing something...

 

[andy t]

I believe the reason is historical. If you look back, early U.S. military issue Leupolds and Nighforce scopes whtere Mil/Moa. It wasn't until recently that both manufacturers went to matching reticles/turrets. On the other hand, European scopes were always Mil/Mil - which probably had a bit of influence on our market/military. Right now and going forward all military scopes are Mil/Mil (USMC's Schmidt and Bender, Army's XM2010).
Personally, I only buy Mil/Mil, FFP scopes. However, the truth is, since I shoot on fairly short range (300 yards), and always at known distance, I never have to use reticle ranging unless as an exercise, and since I shoot paper, I always use max magnification. Be careful with 30X. The golden standard (S&B 2-25 goes to 25X). And I am happy with my Steiner 5-25. 25X is also enough to spot .223 holes at 200 yards, so I can leave my spotting scope behind.
The reason FFP on lower magnification is useful comes in shooting movers and spotting/looking for targets - useful if you ever plan to attend precision rifle competitions.
I don't know anything about Sightron, but a lot of people are happy with Bushnell Tactical HDMR 3.5-21 for around $1000. You can find it for slightly less used. That would be my recommendation for the $1000 range.
Also, if you are an NRA instructor, sign up for a promotive.com account. Bushnell gives you a nice discount there.

After the first couple of pages, I picked up on a theme that has me wondering about something. Sorry if this is a partial derail, but hopefully I'm not the only one here that doesn't know this. anyway, why would scope manufacturers mix up the graduation adjustments between the knobs and the layout of the reticule? In other words, I understand logically "why" one would want them to be mil/mil, or moa/moa, but why wouldn't they match automatically when you buy a particular scope in either type? Is there some arcane advantage for mixing and matching. Seems that it would make calculations a huge headache, but maybe I'm missing something...

 

[je25ff]

You can range targets with a moa reticle also. Its just different units.

And here I was thinking you can only easily range and hold off a target with a mil-dot reticle.

 

[dcmdon]

Thank you all for your input.

I ended up buying a Sightron 6-24 First Focal plane mil/mil scope.

http://info.sightron.com/Riflescopes/SIII-First-Focal-Plane/SIIISS624X50LRFFPMH/

A couple of things came into this. I realized that mil/mil scopes are not inherently metric. I don't think in metric. But I think in yards just fine.

The Sightron will probably not give me the ruggedness of a Leupold but the glass and the tracking comparable and I was able to pick up this scope,with an MSRP of $1319 for $768. So I'm happy so far.

I also found a great online game where you range items using a mil-dot scope. I spent about an hour ranging and figuring hold over with both MOA and Mil and there wasn't much difference. So I chose Mil simply because most of the resources out there are in Mil.

I realized that a lot of long range practical shooters use the "click for hold over, hold for wind" method. So if your hold over is X mils, you reach up and tweak it with the knobs. Time will tell if this works for me, but I have to start somewhere.

I should have it by the middle of next week, so I'll let you all know what I think.

I've also purchased a Wheeler Engineering scope mounting kit. So I'll true up the rings before mounting the scope

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/816462/wheeler-engineering-scope-mounting-combo-kit-1-and-30mm

This has been a learning experience for me so thanks to all those who have contriibuted.

I've also signed up for the advanced long range precision rifle class at Sig Academy in July. So thats good also.

Thanks again.

Don

 

[dcmdon]

Oh yeah, one other thing. I already own a mil/mil scope. I didn't realize it. I have a 1.5-4 leupold mark AR.

I'm thinking I'll put it on my .22. Then even shooting out to 200 yards will require some of the things you would do shooting centerfire out farther. Its just an idea but we'll see. For a .22 sighted in a 50 yards, the drop at 200 is significant.