Buying a scope for long range use. MOA or Milliradian ?

[dcmdon]

So, I"m starting to put together some wants and requirements for my next scope. My goal is to get reasonably proficient shooting at long ranges.

I'm already reasonably proficient shooting out to 200 yards. I've got a handle on the fundamentals, NPOA, breathing, sight alignment/picture, trigger squeeze and follow through.

What I am not proficient at is judging bullet drop at distances where this is a factor or judging wind drift. I've already got a decent rifle for this, an AR10 style rifle with a Lilja barrel that shot less than 1 moa for me on my first stab at reloading for it, using a 4x scope. The gun is definitely not the weak link. I am.

So I'm looking for a scope. I know that I want the turrets and the reticle to be in the same unit. Either both in MOA or both in Mils. The question is which should I choose and why?

My thoughts are that my mind already works in MOA, I've been doing those calculations in my head for years. And with the right understanding you can figure ranges as well with a MOA reticle as with a Mil dot reticle.

But Mil based long distance reticles seem to be more common.

Thoughts?

 

[Terminator03]

Subbing for what could be a very interesting topic!

 

[AllaSnackbah]

cool topic, subbing. i have only bought one decent scope for "long range" use a few years back i got a leupold mk4. i have the leupold TMR reticle on that, i don't mind it but i must admit I'm not as good as i would like to be.

http://www.leupold.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Tactical-Milling-Reticle-Man.pdf

 

[PEW]

I am no expert long range shooter, but from a mathematical standpoint mrad makes a lot of sense. No calculator needed.

 

[Marty McFly]

I am no expert long range shooter, but from a mathematical standpoint mrad makes a lot of sense. No calculator needed.

this

 

[atmay]

.

 

[MadRussian]

I did a lot of reading on this when I was getting a scope. Ended up getting a TMR MRAD reticule in a Front Focal Point scope (Leupold Mk-4) and really like it.
I've shot it out to 500m with good results, as long as you do some studying and learn the reticle it becomes great tool for both ranging and drop calculation.
If you do the homework and figure out your ballistics that scope is just as good as a caliber-specific scope.
One draw back is MOA scopes tend to have slightly finer adjustment clicks (1/4 MOA vs. 0.1 MRAD) but that's where holds come it.

 

[dcmdon]

I am no expert long range shooter, but from a mathematical standpoint mrad makes a lot of sense. No calculator needed.

Please explain why?

My thought was since any ballistic table I come up with is going to start off in inches, it will be easier to make the conversion to minutes. But I could be COMPLETELY wrong. So I'm interested in hearing more.

 

[Gman021]

Keep it mil/mil or moa/moa. Matching reticle and turrets.

Go with moa

 

[frenchman]

As far as the bullet drop is concerned, nobody can help you if you shoot hand rolls. There are ballistic calculators on the web, that can be helpful if you already know your V0.
Now, to the scope... Mil/Mil is great, when you know how to use it. But it matters only if your turrets match your reticle. Mildot makes no sense with MOA clicks. If you are comfortable with MOA/MOA, all I can say is "never change a running system".

 

[dcmdon]

I mentioned above that I wanted the reticle to be the same unit as the turrets. So yes. Its either mil/mil or moa/moa.

Gman - why do you suggest MOA. Is it anything more than the fact that I already have a feeling in my head for how MOA scales.

 

[jbehuniak]

Keep it mil/mil or moa/moa. Matching reticle and turrets.

Go with moa

This exactly. It's apples and oranges really but keep the reticle and adjustments the SAME!!!! There are many options for both it's what makes the most sense to you. Both are user friendly it's like Chevy vs Ford. They both suck if you can't drive a truck

 

[Gman021]

I mentioned above that I wanted the reticle to be the same unit as the turrets. So yes. Its either mil/mil or moa/moa.

Gman - why do you suggest MOA. Is it anything more than the fact that I already have a feeling in my head for how MOA scales.

Its good when shooting at known ranges and you might find more useful info in MOA

 

[dcmdon]

Its good when shooting at known ranges and you might find more useful info in MOA

That makes sense.

So just to restate it. If you are shooting at an even 400 yards, the math is easy because you are dealing only with whole numbers since 1 MOA is (for all intents and purposes) 1 inch at 100 yards, 2" at 200, 3" at 300, etc.

This mathematical simplicity fades when you realize you need to come up 47 inches at 760 yards. In which case there is no MOA benefit because you can't do the math in your head anyway.

Is that it?

 

[nickortizzle1035]

I went with the Mil/Mil combo. don't forget to get a front focal plane scope if you want the reticle to work properly at all magnifications. check out the Sniper 101 video series on youtube. It's very long, but it is extremely informative!

 

[headednorth]

I went with the Mil/Mil combo. don't forget to get a front focal plane scope if you want the reticle to work properly at all magnifications. check out the Sniper 101 video series on youtube. It's very long, but it is extremely informative!

Holy crap, 101? Looks more like sniper phd. Theres got to be 20 - 30 hours of videos there. Nice find.

eta- at first glance, he seems kind of young, whats his story?

 

[dcmdon]

I went with the Mil/Mil combo. don't forget to get a front focal plane scope if you want the reticle to work properly at all magnifications. check out the Sniper 101 video series on youtube. It's very long, but it is extremely informative!

I just found that series. i haven't started watching it. I tend to try to avoid taking too much of a mall ninja approach to this stuff. It could just as easily be an elk hunting series. But if its good, then its good. Does he do the Chris Costas bad ass stare and swivel his head back and forth like Linda Blair in the Exorcist, after every shot? Ha.

I'm planning to get a front focal plane scope. My budget is $1k. I've owned Sightron target scopes before, and it turns out they have gotten into the long distance scope game with

1) moa/moa or mil/mil turrets and reticle setups
2) tall target/tactical style turrets
3) 30 mm tubes
4) FFP reticles


Combine that with what they've always had

1) best quality glass for a given dollar there is
2) great customer service
3) high magnification and expansive zoom ranges.

and you have an attractive combo.

All it doesn't have is an illuminated reticle and zero stops. Both of which I can live wihout.


I've looked around and found that many of the big names don't have this combination. Or in order to get it, you need to step up to $2000 optics.

I'd rather not get drawn into a manufacturer discussion in this thread. Suffice to say that we all are looking for slightly different things and have different budgets.

 

[white feather]

Please explain why?

My thought was since any ballistic table I come up with is going to start off in inches, it will be easier to make the conversion to minutes. But I could be COMPLETELY wrong. So I'm interested in hearing more.

One moa is 1.04719" at 100 yards. Calling it an inch becomes a problem as the range increases. One milrad is 3.6" at 100. One quarter moa adjust is "finer" than 0.1 mil. I have read that milrad ,"works" best if you think in meters. Moa if yards.... One thing that might matter is that you can buy bases with 30 moa built in for long range shooting. I do not recall seeing bases labled with milrad built in. Millett sights has a good page called something like "math formulas for precision shooters" . Sorry, I am on my phone and can't link. It should Google right up. I just bought my first milrad reticle scope. It has milrad turrets. Prior to that, I have only had moa scopes. Cirincione's book "Long range precision rifle" has an excellent discussion on svope and reticlr selection. You should see about buying it.
White Feather

 

[nickortizzle1035]

I just found that series. i haven't started watching it. I tend to try to avoid taking too much of a mall ninja approach to this stuff. It could just as easily be an elk hunting series. But if its good, then its good. Does he do the Chris Costas bad ass stare and swivel his head back and forth like Linda Blair in the Exorcist, after every shot? Ha.

I'm planning to get a front focal plane scope. My budget is $1k. I've owned Sightron target scopes before, and it turns out they have gotten into the long distance scope game with

1) moa/moa or mil/mil turrets and reticle setups
2) tall target/tactical style turrets
3) 30 mm tubes
4) FFP reticles


Combine that with what they've always had

1) best quality glass for a given dollar there is
2) great customer service
3) high magnification and expansive zoom ranges.

and you have an attractive combo.

All it doesn't have is an illuminated reticle and zero stops. Both of which I can live wihout.


I've looked around and found that many of the big names don't have this combination. Or in order to get it, you need to step up to $2000 optics.

I'd rather not get drawn into a manufacturer discussion in this thread. Suffice to say that we all are looking for slightly different things and have different budgets.

The guy is awesome and is for from "mall ninja" he's more like a shooting geek if anything. very good series. I'm throughout about 25 of them and have learned so much that I never knew about long range

 

[xtry51]

Personally I use FFP MOA for all my scopes. Means I can pick up any rifle and hit something out to 300yds without thinking, and very little extra to go to 500. I'd stick with what you know.

 

[MadRussian]

FFP TMR MRAD at 25x zoom on a M9 Pistol target at ~500yds
With some of my other references attached

Figured this might give you an idea to make a decision.

 

[AllaSnackbah]

Holy crap, 101? Looks more like sniper phd. Theres got to be 20 - 30 hours of videos there. Nice find.

eta- at first glance, he seems kind of young, whats his story?

quick synopsis: he goes out into the desert and shoots beer cans from a mile away

 

[dcmdon]

The guy is awesome and is for from "mall ninja" he's more like a shooting geek if anything. very good series. I'm throughout about 25 of them and have learned so much that I never knew about long range

Thanks. shooting geeks are great. I'll watch it as soon as I dig out. Ha.

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FFP TMR MRAD at 25x zoom on a M9 Pistol target at ~500yds
With some of my other references attached
View attachment 94508
Figured this might give you an idea to make a decision.

Thanks. Thats a very helpful picture.

I hope you didn't go out and set it up just for me. Ha.

 

[mac1911]

I went with the Mil/Mil combo. don't forget to get a front focal plane scope if you want the reticle to work properly at all magnifications. check out the Sniper 101 video series on youtube. It's very long, but it is extremely informative!

Although front focal plane is not needed ..........I will say not knowing what this means and how it works/applied you can drive your self nuts. I only have one mil dot scope. I actually use it on my pellet gun. Out to 100 yards. I learned a lot about scopes in the past few years. A lot of what I learned explains many problems I had with scopes 20 years ago..... a plus to today's optics and computers is the ability to print out your own lens cover cheat sheets to get you close.
The biggest thing I learned was you really need to know the size of your target to work well with mil dots.
The software I use for my pellet gun set up will actually print out pictures of say a average size gray tree rat @ X yardage and will show the mildot relation. Will also Calculate for magX. When I get into it I'm pretty good at Calculating in my head but every spring I need to cheat and refresh my brain. Although this is pelgun principle applies

http://tedsholdover.com/video/shooting-demonstrations/mildot-ranging-target-demonstration/

http://tedsholdover.com/video/shooting-demonstrations/shooting-pigeons-in-the-wind-3-videos/

If anything fun to watch
as for what scope? I have more scopes on pellet guns than rifle. I still like my 1985 vintage leupold vxIII with 30/30 crosshairs.

 

[PEW]

Please explain why?

My thought was since any ballistic table I come up with is going to start off in inches, it will be easier to make the conversion to minutes. But I could be COMPLETELY wrong. So I'm interested in hearing more.

Milliradians are easy, once you get over the initial conversion/confusion from MOA.

tangent of 1 milliradian at 1000 meters is one meter. (one meter on the target at 1000 meters). it is always a factor of 1000.

1 mil at 1000 yards is one yard
500 meters is half a meter
1500 feet is 1.5 feet
250 yards is 1/4 yard.
100 yards is 1/10 of a yard (3.6 inches)

MOA is also proportional to distance, but the math isn't as easy. Mil-dot reticles allow simple and quick estimation of distance with some practice, if unknown-distance shooting is a factor.

 

[warwickben]

Any one use the Burris eliminator

 

[je25ff]

I went mil-dot for the only reason that it can be used to range targets.

 

[dcmdon]

One other question.

First focal plane or second? I understand the difference.

My thought is that since it will only be used at ranges of greater than 100 yards, I'll be using it fully zoomed in anyway. So as long as the references work fully zoomed in, I'm good.

The reason this comes up is that you pay a premium for FFP and I'd rather either save the money or spend it on better glass.

In the case of a couple of the manufacturers I'm looking at, $1000 ish gets you a FFP thats 24x or a second focal plane at 30X.
I'm not one of those bigger is always better kind of people. I hunt deer with a 1.25 to 4 scope and have never felt under-scoped. But in this instance, it would seem that more IS better.

Thanks again for all the input. As I'm sure a lot of you know, its fun to learn. This is the only area of marksmanship where I'm still totally clueless.

Thoughts?

- - - Updated - - -

Any one use the Burris eliminator

Burris gives 50% off retail to NRA instructors or hunting safety instructors. By the way.

- - - Updated - - -

I went mil-dot for the only reason that it can be used to range targets.

You can range targets with a moa reticle also. Its just different units.

 

[warwickben]

One other question.

First focal plane or second? I understand the difference.

My thought is that since it will only be used at ranges of greater than 100 yards, I'll be using it fully zoomed in anyway. So as long as the references work fully zoomed in, I'm good.

The reason this comes up is that you pay a premium for FFP and I'd rather either save the money or spend it on better glass.

In the case of a couple of the manufacturers I'm looking at, $1000 ish gets you a FFP thats 24x or a second focal plane at 30X.
I'm not one of those bigger is always better kind of people. I hunt deer with a 1.25 to 4 scope and have never felt under-scoped. But in this instance, it would seem that more IS better.

Thanks again for all the input. As I'm sure a lot of you know, its fun to learn. This is the only area of marksmanship where I'm still totally clueless.

Thoughts?

- - - Updated - - -



Burris gives 50% off retail to NRA instructors or hunting safety instructors. By the way.

- - - Updated - - -



You can range targets with a moa reticle also. Its just different units.

Dam I guess if I ever want to buy from then I'll need to make friends with a NRA guy.

 

[Terminator03]

After the first couple of pages, I picked up on a theme that has me wondering about something. Sorry if this is a partial derail, but hopefully I'm not the only one here that doesn't know this. anyway, why would scope manufacturers mix up the graduation adjustments between the knobs and the layout of the reticule? In other words, I understand logically "why" one would want them to be mil/mil, or moa/moa, but why wouldn't they match automatically when you buy a particular scope in either type? Is there some arcane advantage for mixing and matching. Seems that it would make calculations a huge headache, but maybe I'm missing something...