built glock and registering it?

Tater

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the frame is considered the firearm in ma. therefore it needs to be transferred via ffl. You may have a hard time finding an ffl to transfer one in for you. If you could get one you would merely fill out an fa10 check the box that says registration and leave the sellers info blank. this is my opinion...I am not a lawyer... I did stay at a holiday inn last night though...
 

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the frame is considered the firearm in ma. therefore it needs to be transferred via ffl. You may have a hard time finding an ffl to transfer one in for you. If you could get one you would merely fill out an fa10 check the box that says registration and leave the sellers info blank. this is my opinion...I am not a lawyer... I did stay at a holiday inn last night though...
Um, no.

The frame is considered the firearm on the federal level. In MA, it's not a firearm until it's built. But I do agree there may be a problem finding a MA FFL to do the transfer, but there are some out there that will do it.
 

dcmdon

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the frame is considered the firearm in ma. therefore it needs to be transferred via ffl. You may have a hard time finding an ffl to transfer one in for you. If you could get one you would merely fill out an fa10 check the box that says registration and leave the sellers info blank. this is my opinion...I am not a lawyer... I did stay at a holiday inn last night though...

This is partly wrong. The frame is not considered to be a firearm in MA.

There are 2 people you need to satisfy, the feds and the state.

Since a frame is NOT considered to be a firearm in MA, no FA10 is required until it is capable of firing a shot. Then you register it with a FA10. Some cautious gun shops may FA10 it anyway.

A frame IS considered to be a firearm by the ATF. So the transfer, if from a licensee must include a NICS check and a 4473.
Since there are no ATF/Federal requirements for private transfers, if you were to get it from a non-licensee, no paperwork of any kind would be required for the transfer of the receiver.

Don
 

dcmdon

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If your getting it FTF, chances are that is was registered as a shootable firearm, and will require a completed fa10.
Timberwolf frames are sold as frames only. So there's a decent chance it has never been a fully functioning firearm.

With that said. You bring up a good question. A new frame is not a Firearm per MA law.

But what if you strip a frame and then sell it. Is it still a firearm? Per MA law??

Kevlar? Len?
 

jasons

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.....what if you strip a frame and then sell it. Is it still a firearm? Per MA law??
Not according to a strict reading of the definition in the MGL, though I'm sure that certain people would attempt to apply the "once a X, always an X" paradigm despite a lack of legal basis with which to do so. (Hasn't stopped them before.)
 
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andypieces

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Let's say, I buy a timber wolf frame, build it up, and send in a FA10, checked registration, the gun is in the DB with the S/N, "registered" to me.
Later, I sell off the frame only, somehow, loose my LTC, and my guns are confiscated. What happens to the serialized frame, that was sold with no FA10?
 

dcmdon

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Not according to a strict reading of the definition in the MGL, though I'm sure that certain people would attempt to apply the "once a X, always an X" paradigm despite a lack of legal basis with which to do so. (Hasn't stopped them before.)
Please clarify. Are you saying based on your opinion that even a bare frame is considered a firearm, or that once a firearm, always a firearm.
 

dcmdon

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Back in 98 and 99, I used to stay over for the S&W IDPA winternationals.

There were fantastic events in the evening for the volunteer ROs. We got to go to the Springfield Armory on a VIP tour. THE Springfield armory. Not the company by the same name. Awesome stuff.
But every evening I faced a decision.

I cold illegally bring my Glock 34 out with me, empty.

Or I could legally, but against all of my ethical values, leave the gun in my room, at risk.

So I decided to remove the slide/bbl/recoil assy and always just bring the frame with me when I went out.
I figured I was breaking the letter of the law, but then was told by people that I was in fact complying with the law because the gun could not fire a shot as carried.

I know we're discussing edge of the envelope stuff here. But I'd like to know if I was or was not in compliance with MGLs.

So . . lets see them.

If you've made a statement about whats legal or isn't in this thread, put up or shut up. Lets see a citation, whether its case law or a MGL. An opinion without a citation is worse than useless since it can lead to the propagation of bad ifnormation.

Don
 

jasons

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Please clarify. Are you saying based on your opinion that even a bare frame is considered a firearm, or that once a firearm, always a firearm.
Neither. A stripped frame does NOT meet the MGL's definition of a firearm as written, and there's nothing that I've seen in the MGL that supports the "once a X, always an X" interpretation.

http://www.malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartI/TitleXX/Chapter140/Section121
MGL Chapter 140 Section 121 said:
“Firearm”, a pistol, revolver or other weapon of any description, loaded or unloaded, from which a shot or bullet can be discharged and of which the length of the barrel or barrels is less than 16 inches or 18 inches in the case of a shotgun as originally manufactured; provided, however, that the term firearm shall not include any weapon that is: (i) constructed in a shape that does not resemble a handgun, short-barreled rifle or short-barreled shotgun including, but not limited to, covert weapons that resemble key-chains, pens, cigarette-lighters or cigarette-packages; or (ii) not detectable as a weapon or potential weapon by x-ray machines commonly used at airports or walk- through metal detectors.
A bullet can not be discharged from a stripped frame and it doesn't even have a barrel....
 
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Let's say, I buy a timber wolf frame, build it up, and send in a FA10, checked registration, the gun is in the DB with the S/N, "registered" to me.
Later, I sell off the frame only, somehow, loose my LTC, and my guns are confiscated. What happens to the serialized frame, that was sold with no FA10?
I wouldn't take the chance on splitting off a frame that was registered to me as a functioning firearm. Someone may opine that "once a functional firearm, always a functional firearm". I don't know what the legal consequences would be, if there were any at all.

If you bought the frame, a dealer issued an FA-10, then you sold the frame without having registered it as a functioning firearm that would be fine.
 

jasons

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If you bought the frame, a dealer issued an FA-10, then you sold the frame without having registered it as a functioning firearm that would be fine.
If it had an FA-10 filed it was already (incorrectly) registered as a firearm. There is no provision (and no legal requirement) to register a non-firearm via FA-10.


http://www.malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartI/TitleXX/Chapter140/Section128a

MGL Chapter 140 Section 128a said:
Section 128A. The provisions of section one hundred and twenty-eight shall not apply to any person who, without being licensed as provided in section one hundred and twenty-two, sells or transfers a firearm, rifle or shotgun to a person licensed under said section one hundred and twenty-two, or to a federally licensed firearms dealer or to a federal, state or local historical society, museum or institutional collection open to the public. The provisions of section one hundred and twenty-eight shall not apply to any resident of the commonwealth who, without being licensed as provided in section one hundred and twenty-two, sells or transfers to other than a federally licensed firearms dealer or organization named above not more than four firearms, including rifles and shotguns in any one calendar year; provided, however, that the seller has a firearm identification card or a license to carry firearms, is an exempt person under the conditions of clauses (n), (o), (r) and (s) of the fourth paragraph of section one hundred and twenty-nine C, or is permitted to transfer ownership under the conditions of section one hundred and twenty-nine D and the purchaser has, in the case of sale or transfer of a firearm, a permit to purchase issued under the provisions of section one hundred and thirty-one A and a firearm identification card issued under section one hundred and twenty-nine B, or has such permit to purchase and is an exempt person under the provisions of section one hundred and twenty-nine C, or has been issued a license to carry firearms under the provisions of section one hundred and thirty, or in the case of sale or transfer of a rifle or shotgun, the purchaser has a firearm identification card or a license to carry firearms or is an exempt person as hereinbefore stated; and provided, further, that such resident reports within seven days, in writing to the commissioner of the department of criminal justice information services on forms furnished by said executive director, the names and addresses of the seller and the purchaser of any such large capacity feeding device, firearm, rifle or shotgun, together with a complete description of the firearm, rifle or shotgun, including its designation as a large capacity weapon, if applicable, the calibre, make and serial number and the purchaser’s license to carry firearms number, permit to purchase number and identifying number of such documentation as is used to establish exempt person status in the case of a firearm or the purchaser’s license to carry number or firearm identification card number or said document identity number, in the case of a rifle or shotgun.
So we need to report the sale of a "large capacity feeding device, firearm, rifle or shotgun," assumedly according to their definitions included in section 121, but nowhere in there does it say anything about a stripped frame or any other individual parts.
 
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Dirtypacman

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Again just to settle this debate - it was previously a built up firearm sold as a complete gun. A new frame is now being used (also transferred via FA-10).

The now unused frame is being sold FTF on a FA-10. Regardless of it leaving as a non-functioning firearm it is not leaving without being transferred to the new owner through an FA-10.
 

jasons

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Again just to settle this debate - it was previously a built up firearm sold as a complete gun. A new frame is now being used (also transferred via FA-10).

The now unused frame is being sold FTF on a FA-10. Regardless of it leaving as a non-functioning firearm it is not leaving without being transferred to the new owner through an FA-10.

Are you the guy selling the frame to the OP?
 

Dirtypacman

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Are you the guy selling the frame to the OP?
That's the truth. And since I got it as a complete gun its registered to me. I am not selling the frame to the new owner (regardless of function) without it being transferred to him also. That will be done via FA-10.
 

jasons

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That's the truth. And since I got it as a complete gun its registered to me. I am not selling the frame to the new owner (regardless of function) without it being transferred to him also. That will be done via FA-10.

Nothing wrong with being overly cautious in this state, despite (or perhaps because of) the confusing laws. Your sale, your rules.
 

Dirtypacman

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Nothing wrong with being overly cautious in this state, despite (or perhaps because of) the confusing laws. Your sale, your rules.
Yeah I totally understand if the frame had never been built up there is no reason to worry about registration. But since I have already had it registered to me I have to do the right thing to protect myself when I transfer it.
 

dcmdon

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Again just to settle this debate - it was previously a built up firearm sold as a complete gun. A new frame is now being used (also transferred via FA-10).

The now unused frame is being sold FTF on a FA-10. Regardless of it leaving as a non-functioning firearm it is not leaving without being transferred to the new owner through an FA-10.
pacman - you are stating how you choose to do things. And thats fine. A very conservative approach is favored by some.

But thats not the law. The law is very clear: “Firearm”, a pistol, revolver or other weapon of any description, loaded or unloaded, from which a shot or bullet can be discharged

JASONS - you and I are on exactly the same page on everything. Thanks for the clarification. The law is pretty black and white.
 
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You bring up a good question. A new frame is not a Firearm per MA law.

But what if you strip a frame and then sell it. Is it still a firearm? Per MA law?
Legally, I agree with what jasons has stated.

Per MA law, a frame is a frame, regardless of its previous configuration.

From a practical standpoint, I agree with Dirtypacman's CYA position as the seller.
 

Dirtypacman

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pacman - you are stating how you choose to do things. And thats fine. A very conservative approach is favored by some.

But thats not the law. The law is very clear: “Firearm”, a pistol, revolver or other weapon of any description, loaded or unloaded, from which a shot or bullet can be discharged

JASONS - you and I are on exactly the same page on everything. Thanks for the clarification. The law is pretty black and white.
Totally understood and yes I think your both right but for the OP's question since I know exactly whats already gone on with the frame I was just stating the facts. (you will see I said that in my previous post also but since we were both typing at the same time you know)
 

Dirtypacman

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pacman - you are stating how you choose to do things. And thats fine. A very conservative approach is favored by some.

But thats not the law. The law is very clear: “Firearm”, a pistol, revolver or other weapon of any description, loaded or unloaded, from which a shot or bullet can be discharged
I just want to be clear for the sake of this argument. MA recognizes the frame as the firearm because it has already been registered as such. I can take it apart and try and piece sell out the parts but as soon as the frame leaves my possession I have to consider that that is the only part that MA cares about and it cannot be given to another owner but still registered to myself. Simple as that.

You can say the law is very clear - yet it really is not because we are debating it.
 

Dirtypacman

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I disagree.

Citation please?
When it has been registered as such no citation is needed. Clear enough yet?

Haha did not think so, that's why I choose to only transfer it via FA-10. Its just like you said the conservative and I'll add smart choice.
 
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