Boston Globe: Let chiefs have say on gun permits

Remember the COP has a job....If crime rates look like they are going down, well they keep their job, if the go up well, they lose their job. I need to research this but I faintly rememer a few years back an article about a COP in Springfield MA was under reporting violent crimes to keep her job.

I have the utmost respect for LEO however I do believe that crimes are still being under reported in a shield of silence....
 
kiver said:
Remember the COP has a job....If crime rates look like they are going down, well they keep their job, if the go up well, they lose their job. I need to research this but I faintly rememer a few years back an article about a COP in Springfield MA was under reporting violent crimes to keep her job.

I have the utmost respect for LEO however I do believe that crimes are still being under reported in a shield of silence....
Click to expand...

Colleges and Universities are notorious for doing that. I'm sure the political animals out there are doing the same. BTW, when I worked for the Department of Correction many years ago, the superintendent would jump all over us if there was trouble in our units...so we...handled it all in house...hush hush.
 
http://www.city-data.com/top27.html
most dangerous cities
1. Markham, Illinois (2484.9)
2. East St. Louis, Illinois (2173.9)
3. Washington Park, Illinois (2132.8)
4. Hammond, Louisiana (1771.6)
5. Ocean City, Maryland (1452.9)
6. Florida City, Florida (1412.3)
7. Emeryville, California (1344.9)
8. Lancaster, South Carolina (1338.6)
9. Wildwood, New Jersey (1315.6)
10. St. Louis, Missouri (1307.8)

No cities/town in Vermont, New Hampshire, or Maine made even the top 100 on that list of dangerous places
yet Mass officials will complain about the laws in those states
 
MaverickNH said:
So here's my theory why MA CoPs need discretionary authority - since they don't catch criminals, nor hardly try to, they have no criminal records to prohibit FID/LTC issuance...
Click to expand...

This is wrong.

The cops are doing their jobs, and they're catching the criminals. The courts or the prison system then lets the criminals go.
 
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the_doctor said:
Those are pretty much cherry picked numbers.

Let's look at some other numbers. Let's talk about the amount of crimes per 100,000 persons occurring in Massachusetts during 2006 versus 1986, and 1960.


2006 1986 1960
2.9 3.6 1.4 murder
27.1 29.7 4.8 rape
125 192.7 20.4 robbery
279 906.5 211.1 vehicle theft

Crime is down in Massachusetts. Clearly, almost every resident of the Commonwealth is aware of the general trend. The arguments by some left-wingers to the contrary only sets back the firearms movement. People do not have a clue about those stats as quoted. They do not reflect overall numbers for crimes such as murder.

Come on.

bill
Click to expand...

National Stats. EOPS fills out the survery. You can go to the EOPS and get 2004 data. All of their data shows rising crime to the 80's. After the 80's the crime level started dropping.

As far as I am concerned places like Brockton are much safer, NOW, than the 80's. A lot of people think so. This runs completely afoul of the attitude of riding with the pistol between your knees on northeastshooters.com.

bill
 
namedpipes said:
Florida has 21 of the top 100 most crime riddled cities. No wonder my grandmother came up to visit wearing gang colors!!

Followed by NC@9, NJ@8 and GA@7. Nearly 50% of the baddies appear to live in the lower right USA.

A very brief look at gun laws there might lead you to believe that those states are firearm freindly, but talk I find in other forums seems to say different. Interestingly, NONE of the festering sores were in the Pacific Northwest, which is reputed to be pro-gun or at least not anti-gun. hmmm

btw, I used Wikipedia for the gl info since it was out of state info, and the section on Massachusetts is woefully inadequate. If anyone would like to update and expand it, Wikipedia allows regular people to edit the articles. Here is the ilnk if interested:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_the_United_States_(by_state)#Massachusetts
Click to expand...

To throw a wrinkle in your post, I have ridden my bicycle through Markham, IL without much worry. A lot of crime has happened there such as the shooting of the METRA cop in the station parking lot. However, I think that most people are terrified of setting foot in South Chicago. Markham is also next to Homewood, which has a very good reputation. Flossmoor is also immediately to the south, which is like a very homogenous version of Milton.

For years I have been telling people to move to places like Iowa for retirement. I think that Iowa is current #45 in terms of crime level versus #5 for Florida.

Bill
 
MrTwigg said:
I'll ask again, cite your source please.
Click to expand...

I don't read this every day. Try to be patient.

I went and found a link that pulls the data very easily at http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/macrime.htm.

All of this real crime data is available at the EOPS website. I recommend that people read the websites of your government prior to making posts about data taken out of context of the whole.

Bill
 
dwarven1 said:
Now who's cherrypicking? And what does 1986 have to do with anything - comparing 1998 to today shows the difference between when the law was passed and today.

And I have no idea what you're talking about with your reference to left-wingers. Are you calling the Executive Director of the Gun Owners Action League a left-winger???
Click to expand...

Yes.

I'm not cherry picking any numbers. You want to talk crime then you have to talk about HOW CRIME is GOING DOWN in Massachusetts. To insinuate anything else is futile. The letter is met to imply that crime is rising, which is false.

Bill
 
the_doctor said:
National Stats. EOPS fills out the survery. You can go to the EOPS and get 2004 data. All of their data shows rising crime to the 80's. After the 80's the crime level started dropping.

As far as I am concerned places like Brockton are much safer, NOW, than the 80's. A lot of people think so. This runs completely afoul of the attitude of riding with the pistol between your knees on northeastshooters.com.

bill
Click to expand...

Dig your damn head out of that sand you call your mother's basement.

These statistics are from mass.gov. Feel free to read them and interpret from them whatever the hell you will

http://www.mass.gov/?pageID=eopsterminal&L=3&L0=Home&L1=Law+Enforcement+%26+Criminal+Justice&L2=Crime+Statistics+%26+Research&sid=Eeops&b=terminalcontent&f=msp_crime_reporting_msp_crime_reporting_available_reports&csid=Eeops
 
Year Population Murder Rape Robbery
1998 *6,147,000* 124* 1,687* 5,938*
2006 *6,437,193* 186* 1,742* 8,047*

Cant tell you how much safer we should all feel knowing the most violent crimes have gone up since 1998 in the Stats mentioned. [rofl][rofl][rofl]
 
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the_doctor said:
Those are pretty much cherry picked numbers.

Let's look at some other numbers. Let's talk about the amount of crimes per 100,000 persons occurring in Massachusetts during 2006 versus 1986, and 1960.


2006 1986 1960
2.9 3.6 1.4 murder
27.1 29.7 4.8 rape
125 192.7 20.4 robbery
279 906.5 211.1 vehicle theft

Crime is down in Massachusetts. Clearly, almost every resident of the Commonwealth is aware of the general trend. The arguments by some left-wingers to the contrary only sets back the firearms movement. People do not have a clue about those stats as quoted. They do not reflect overall numbers for crimes such as murder.

Come on.

bill
Click to expand...

Looks like Bill wants to use the high water mark to make his claim that crime is down in the People's Republic. [thinking]

Why don't you compare them to the caveman days as well, I'm sure the rape and murder rates are way down from then too. [laugh]
 
namedpipes said:
Followed by NC@9, NJ@8 and GA@7. Nearly 50% of the baddies appear to live in the lower right USA.

A very brief look at gun laws there might lead you to believe that those states are firearm freindly, but talk I find in other forums seems to say different.
Click to expand...
NJ's gun laws suck. No concealed carry unless you're a cop, security guard on duty or one of the "beautiful people", smart guns mandated (except for cops!) three years after they're on the market and you need a purchase permit for EVERY handgun you buy. Just took my buddy over two months to get his latest two.

the_doctor said:
Yes.

I'm not cherry picking any numbers. You want to talk crime then you have to talk about HOW CRIME is GOING DOWN in Massachusetts. To insinuate anything else is futile. The letter is met to imply that crime is rising, which is false.

Bill
Click to expand...
Bill, you are either deluding yourself or you think I'm an idiot. You deliberately include a different period in your argument than what was under discussion... and you're ignoring my comment on it. Do please let Mumbles Menino and Cadillac Deval know that crime is going down so that they stop pushing for more gun laws, OK?
 
Gun laws punish only the lawful. Globe Editorial

I'm pleased to see sensible, objective articles published in the Globe regarding firearms in the Commonwealth and the arbitrary and misguided laws relative to them.
more stories like this

Typical New York Times/Boston Globe articles are decidedly one sided, reporting only one aspect of the issue and disregarding logic and research that argue the opposite point of view. As an educated (retired social worker, two graduate degrees), law-abiding gun owner, I am no threat to anyone's safety, yet the state continues to create firearm legislation that impacts only the lawful. Criminals don't care how many laws are passed, because they know only the law-abiding comply.

As Thomas Jefferson wrote: "Laws that forbid the carrying of arms disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man."

I encourage you to look into the attorney general's "consumer protection" regulations concerning which firearms can be sold in Massachusetts. I can purchase a $700 Smith & Wesson, but not a $2,700 Wilson (a far superior, but similar, competition pistol) due to these regulations. Wilson, and hundreds of others, will not do business with dealers in this state due to the vaguely written regulations, fear of legal problems with the attorney general, and the costs of compliance.

Phil Mickey
Royalston
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I had to blink twice when I read the signature on that letter; I used to shoot IDPA with Phil at Riverside. Nice letter, if you're reading this, Phil!
 
dwarven1 said:
I had to blink twice when I read the signature on that letter; I used to shoot IDPA with Phil at Riverside. Nice letter, if you're reading this, Phil!
Click to expand...

Indeed, its nice to see the Globe slowly start to come around...or in the least start to publish more items with an even keel on the issues rather than the standard 'For the children' and 'Blood in the streets' repertoires.

Its letters like this that make a difference. I didnt know he was a local shooter though, handshake him for me if anyone sees him!
 
The last thing I have to say is that between the years 1620 and 2006 violent crime and gun crime has gone up in Massachusetts!
 
derek said:
Looks like Bill wants to use the high water mark to make his claim that crime is down in the People's Republic. [thinking]

Why don't you compare them to the caveman days as well, I'm sure the rape and murder rates are way down from then too. [laugh]
Click to expand...

All you can argue is that crime is down from the PEAK. It is down. Let it go. The recent Chicago paper by two economists only discusses how the majority of criminals have little access to illegal firearms in places like Boston and Chicago.

You can't make sweeping generalizations about one crazy case and say that every criminal is carrying an ar-15 in boston, because one was caught doing so.

Pull some random police logs from BPD's website. Look at how many crimes are committed with knives versus guns. You can probably pick a small piece of time such as one shift and find 15 A&B with knives versus 1 A&B with a gun.

Crime is down and criminal access to firearms is low.
 
the_doctor said:
All you can argue is that crime is down from the PEAK. It is down. Let it go. The recent Chicago paper by two economists only discusses how the majority of criminals have little access to illegal firearms in places like Boston and Chicago.

You can't make sweeping generalizations about one crazy case and say that every criminal is carrying an ar-15 in boston, because one was caught doing so.

Pull some random police logs from BPD's website. Look at how many crimes are committed with knives versus guns. You can probably pick a small piece of time such as one shift and find 15 A&B with knives versus 1 A&B with a gun.

Crime is down and criminal access to firearms is low.
Click to expand...


I am pretty sure that since the 1960's
The use of acid is down.
Pot prices have increased dramatically.
Free love is no longer as free
Pachouli isn't the most popular scent around
Commune style communities have dropped
Nudism in public and streaking has dropped dramatically
War protesters don't go out much in public to riot
Going to Canada to avoid the draft is way down

Gee, come to think of it the 60s was a time of peace and love!
Must have been the infamous Hippie Bans of 1998 that rid us of all that!
 
Absolutely everything you can think of is always either at its all-time peak, or down from its all time peak. It's also either at its all-time low or increased from its all-time low. I suppose that proves something about something, though I can't figure out what it might be. OTOH, the fact that violent crime had been declining steadily in Massachusetts for roughly a decade before "the toughest gun-control law in the nation" and has now been increasing fairly steadily ever since might be moderately good evidence of several propositions, though I doubt that one of them would be that this particular law or gun-control laws in general help reduce violent crime.

Ken
 

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