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- Thread starter biff44
- Start date
ok... can we stop the pointless arguing with M1911... he is pretty hell bent on an argument with anyone that even hints that they would resist a confiscation...
He's typically cranky anyway... and even more so today... i don't know... maybe not getting enough fiber...
either way, can we may be, IDK... get thei thread back on track?
He's typically cranky anyway... and even more so today... i don't know... maybe not getting enough fiber...
either way, can we may be, IDK... get thei thread back on track?
Well, that line of thinking didn't work very well when the confiscated gold...
It's as much a matter of the sheep being willing to comply as it is enforcement... You only have to enforce against the few who won't do it themselves...
well gold dosent go boom, i mean, they could try but when it becomes more dangerous than fishing for alaskan king crab, i think/ hope they would stop attempting to pry every single thing we have to protect ourselves from our hands.
My point is that all the boating accidents in the world didn't stop them from confiscating gold, so clearly the sheep will obey and its only the outliers... So, it won't take as many ATF agents as you think to accidentally fire so many smoke grenades into your house that it catches fire
![[laugh]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/012.gif "Laugh [laugh]")
The "Tree of Liberty" letter
Anyone who would not resist confiscation in a fascist nation full of storm troopers is a pussy: No way in hell will I ever give up my rights.
From Thomas Jefferson to William Smith
Paris, November 13, 1787
The British ministry have so long hired their gazetteers to repeat and model into every form lies about our being in anarchy, that the world has at length believed them, the English nation has believed them, the ministers themselves have come to believe them, & what is more wonderful, we have believed them ourselves. Yet where does this anarchy exist? Where did it ever exist, except in the single instance of Massachusetts? And can history produce an instance of rebellion so honourably conducted? I say nothing of it's motives. They were founded in ignorance, not wickedness. God forbid we should ever be 20 years without such a rebellion. The people cannot be all, & always well informed. The part which is wrong will be discontented in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions it is a lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty. We have had 13. states independent 11. years. There has been one rebellion. That comes to one rebellion in a century & a half for each state. What country before ever existed a century & a half without a rebellion? & what country can preserve it's liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to facts, pardon & pacify them. What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it's natural manure. Our Convention has been too much impressed by the insurrection of Massachusetts: and in the spur of the moment they are setting up a kite to keep the hen-yard in order. I hope in God this article will be rectified before the new constitution is accepted.
Anyone who would not resist confiscation in a fascist nation full of storm troopers is a pussy: No way in hell will I ever give up my rights.
From Thomas Jefferson to William Smith
Paris, November 13, 1787
The British ministry have so long hired their gazetteers to repeat and model into every form lies about our being in anarchy, that the world has at length believed them, the English nation has believed them, the ministers themselves have come to believe them, & what is more wonderful, we have believed them ourselves. Yet where does this anarchy exist? Where did it ever exist, except in the single instance of Massachusetts? And can history produce an instance of rebellion so honourably conducted? I say nothing of it's motives. They were founded in ignorance, not wickedness. God forbid we should ever be 20 years without such a rebellion. The people cannot be all, & always well informed. The part which is wrong will be discontented in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions it is a lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty. We have had 13. states independent 11. years. There has been one rebellion. That comes to one rebellion in a century & a half for each state. What country before ever existed a century & a half without a rebellion? & what country can preserve it's liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to facts, pardon & pacify them. What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it's natural manure. Our Convention has been too much impressed by the insurrection of Massachusetts: and in the spur of the moment they are setting up a kite to keep the hen-yard in order. I hope in God this article will be rectified before the new constitution is accepted.
If and when a confiscation comes down the powers that be will not have to do much - as most people, the "sheep" that we always talk about - will just hand them in. Just as they did with their gold during the 1930's. And just as they did in Britain and Australia when the order came down to hand in their firearms.
One little remembered factoid about the revolutionary era in America was that there was paranoia galore and all sorts of stories about the British killing babies and what not.
The people on this forum who argue we should all keep our heads and nothing bad will happen are in fact the same type of people who would tell you to hand in your guns and your gold and not make waves because it will only cause problems.
Taken in the context of what the people who founded this country had to go thru to give us the freedoms that we are rapidly losing (and have already lost in many cases) - and in the context of the mood and atmosphere of that time, which was part and parcel of what produced the revolution - it actually seems pretty pathetic and un-American to argue against paranoia and tall tales of disaster to come.
Paranoia and tall tales of disaster to come are your friends - especially if you feed it to people who would otherwise be tripping over themselves to run down to the local collection points to hand in their guns and gold. So if and when the day comes that anything like this comes to pass - tell all the sheep tall tales of complete fiscal disaster to get them to keep their gold - and tell them tall tales of re-education camps, govt. abuse - and property confiscations - which will all follow any firearms confiscation order.
Paranoia might just turn out to be your best defense against people being too willing to hand them over.
Derek said if the day ever comes when the stormtroopers are confiscating weapons,I can live in his basement.
That's what I plan on doing.
I should actually start the transfer of ammo now,by the time I am relocating the last 1K rounds,the confiscations should just be starting.
That's what I plan on doing.
I should actually start the transfer of ammo now,by the time I am relocating the last 1K rounds,the confiscations should just be starting.
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Are we talking about the move to change the backing of the US dollar from gold to the Federal Reserve? AS of this writing any US citizen can physically possess as much gold as he can store. As with many assets like art work, antiques, the ability to buy it is greater than the ability to sell it. But with gold its not to different
That's correct - it was deemed a national emergency and all non-numismatic (collectors coins) gold was ordered to be exchanged and private ownership was made illegal...
They've done it before - they can do it again...
Which is why I hesitate mightily in assuming gold is a "safe store of value" in this nation while the Fed and Treasury spiral out of control in their grab for power...
Mass-diver
NES Member
In "Enemies Foreign and Domestic" the AWB ban and confiscation program is aided by a reward system with neighbors (and family members) who squeal on people with rifles in exhange for rewards.
In that book, gold confiscation takes place when inflation is so high that the dollar means nothing. People will always want to trade with something, and gold, apparently due to being heavy, shiny, and scarce, is seen as having some instrinsic valve. I guess around here we could go back to sea shell though......
In that book, gold confiscation takes place when inflation is so high that the dollar means nothing. People will always want to trade with something, and gold, apparently due to being heavy, shiny, and scarce, is seen as having some instrinsic valve. I guess around here we could go back to sea shell though......
Right - when the dollar becomes threatened with rapid devaluation - which can happen suddenly in the form of a failed treasury auction...
They can fail "suddenly" because in order to be a treasury "dealer" you are COMPELLED to bid in treasury auctions. At the point that it becomes so absurd to bid at all that you are willing to risk losing future ability to be a dealer and/or you are insolvent and cannot close the transaction even if you bid - then a treasury auction collapses where the prior one seemed to go off without a hitch...
BTW - there have been auctions recently where dealers failed to "settle" in a timely manner...
Gold is having a hard time coming back as a currency because we have operated for a long time without it. It is poorly distributed (i.e. concentrated in pockets around the world) and we lack the mechanisms to trade with it...
Whether or not gold returns as a currency I don't know, but the point was that there was no revolution when it was confiscated... It had been horded prior to that point for very good reason (hyper inflation) so you'd think people wouldn't be happy about it, yet it happened relatively peacefully which is measure of how much people would resist compulsory gun "exchange" programs...
The problem with using an analogy of people giving up their gold in the 30's - and comparing to to now is that back then the govt. used the excuse that they needed people to give up their gold because they needed to fix the money supply - and gold was "a barbarous relic".
This time - they won't be able to use that excuse. This time it will be the dollar that will the "barbarous relic" - and any gold confiscation would be seen much more clearly as just the government stealing your property. All of the people who are "gold bugs" have been living on paranoia of a confiscation happening for decades - I would be willing to bet that the likelihood of the people who are holding gold of any form handing it in at this point is far less than the likelihood of people who own guns handing them in.
Any confiscation effort for gold would involve far more govt. force than even a gun confiscation would involve.
Sir - we know you have bought gold coins, we have the records. Well I am sorry Mr. Govt. agent man - I sold them last week to some guy down at the market for a wheelbarrow full of cash so I could buy a loaf of bread.
Well we also want your guns sir.
Yeah - well the thing with that is they were lost in a boating accident last summer up on the lake.
Is there anything else you want to steal from me while you are here?
This cuts both ways...
Hard to compare mind-sets without experiencing it, but now we've been off the gold standard for a long time - where they were still on it. So, it seems only logical that they would/should have been at least as if not more hesitant to forgo a their personal stores of gold... After all, they hadn't been hording dollars up to that point... We've lived with BS, I mean Fiat currencies for a long time - so the abstraction of money printed out of thin air is "more comfortable" to us now (though it should not be).
Regardless - my point was more directed at comparing the forfeit of gold then to the forfeit of guns now. Same with the Brits handing in their guns. We have examples both historical and modern of government taking that went down without a fight when it should have met far more resistance in both cases...
The can't take what they can't find so just say you don't have any gold and guns.
Tell Mr, storm trooper to sell crazy somewhere else!
Tell Mr, storm trooper to sell crazy somewhere else!
If people want to be concerned about the government stealing something - they ought to be concerned about them stealing their 401k's, IRA's, and other retirement plans.
That is where the real money is.
Supposedly there are literally trillions of dollars tied up in 401k's and other retirement plans. And it is far easier to "steal" the value of those thru bureacratic manipulation and manipulation of the money supply than it is to steal the value of your gold. You could consider the value of many people's retirement plans already stolen - because if news reports are to be believed - the value of many person's retirement plans has gone down by something like 30% in the last year or so.
There have already been hearings in Congress where they discussed converting 401k's over into some sort of government run program under the aegis of Social Security.
Plus it would be almost painless for the govt. to do this - since it's all electronic now they would simply force the companies that manage them to do it. You would get a piece of paper in the mail that said: "all your money now are belong to us".
Here is one person's story of how they will never put money into a 401k plan again:
http://www.silverbearcafe.com/private/01.09/coup.html
That is where the real money is.
Supposedly there are literally trillions of dollars tied up in 401k's and other retirement plans. And it is far easier to "steal" the value of those thru bureacratic manipulation and manipulation of the money supply than it is to steal the value of your gold. You could consider the value of many people's retirement plans already stolen - because if news reports are to be believed - the value of many person's retirement plans has gone down by something like 30% in the last year or so.
There have already been hearings in Congress where they discussed converting 401k's over into some sort of government run program under the aegis of Social Security.
Plus it would be almost painless for the govt. to do this - since it's all electronic now they would simply force the companies that manage them to do it. You would get a piece of paper in the mail that said: "all your money now are belong to us".
Here is one person's story of how they will never put money into a 401k plan again:
http://www.silverbearcafe.com/private/01.09/coup.html
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I've long assumed that the chances that 401Ks/IRAs are going to behave as promised in 20+ years is nill... They will be taxed or taken...
Unless you have a matching contribution, the risk just isn't worth it these days...
One beef I have with that article is:
"money does not simply disappear. It goes somewhere." -Austin-Fitts
That is not invariably true - one of the big problems we've had these past 8 years in once of perception that vast quantities of money created from thin air in the dotcom bubble really ever existed...
We are, for a second time, wiping those fake dollars away and people are acting as if the market and housing are dropping by outrageous amounts when in one context they are simply reverting to a mean of growth on a 30 year timeframe...
So, it is not invariably true that money "goes somewhere". That depends on its origin...
The Fed can print money, but the market can destroy it via deflation. Inflation makes stock prices rise because the same stock costs more in the face of a devalued currency (as more dollars are printed - their purchasing power drops - stocks go up without any economic growth required).
The Fed doesn't like this as it removes their primary source of power, but they have no say in the end as long as we have free will to buy and sell (and sell short).
Deflation is only scary to central banks for whom it is a primary method of control. To the rest of us its just a recession...
I have spent a lot of time reading up on how the fed and our banking system operates - so I agree with that while it is not technically true that the money "goes somewhere" - for all practical purposes for the layman - it does.
If you "invest" $100,000 of your hard earned dollars into the stock market thru your 401k - that was (or should have been) "real money". You traded work to receive that money. The money should reflect a store of real value.
When the stocks that your money is invested into go down in value - because of the normal processes of the stock market, somebody else is getting that "lost value". If you bought a stock for $100 per share, and the other guy bought a stock for $50.00 per share -and the stock subsequently went up to $125.00 per share - and he sold and "made" $75.00 per share, and you hold onto yours - until the selling of all the other investors trying to get out force the price of the stock down to $50.00 per share.......
You lost money - and somebody else made it.
When the Fed inflates the money supply so that the people who used deficit spending to buy stuff can now have first dibs at the new money to pay off their debts at half price - thereby forcing the value of your savings down by half - they have stolen from you. Because of the complexities of the fractional reserve system the relationship is not quite direct - but in the end you got screwed and somebody else who had better access to the "system" made out.
After reading and reading and reading everything I can find on what is going on with the economy for the last few years I have come to the conclusion that we are being robbed slowly and surely. What is happening right now is the system is coming apart at the seams because the greedy just couldn't contain themselves. And they still trying to stick us with the bill thru bailouts and monetary inflation and all sorts of other financial tricks.
If people finally figure this out - they are going to be PISSED.
If the govt. starts taking 401k's - especially after all the other crap that has come down in the last couple of years - people are going to be pissed.
One of the previous responses mentioned Gerald Celente. Gerald Celente has a saying he repeats over and over again: " when people lose everything - they lose it.".
To a good many people losing their 401k would represent losing everything. Add in lost jobs and no hope and you have a recipe for something. Not quite sure what yet - could be a call for dictatorship to "save us". Could be people finally realizing that the govt. is NOT here to help you.
Only time will tell.
This sort of analysis has two problems that are often present in such descriptions of how "the money has to go somewhere":
1. It ignores the vast quantity of money added to the market not by deposit, but by appreciation and/or inflation...
2. It assumes that there are equal parts short and long in the market. That is, unless there is one share short for each share long, the result of a stock decline does not produce as many winners as it does losers... It's rare/near impossible that a stock has a 50% short interest outstanding...
Try your math with 10-20% of outstanding shares short and see what happens?
The cash settled futures markets (where I usually play) are often different in that for each short there is a long. At some point, the entire market was "created", but for the most part, money is neither created nor destroyed, but rather moved around between players in the futures markets...
p.s. that is not to say that a lot of the time stock market moves do not represent transfers of wealth...
In many regards artificial stock market inflation caused by government actions represent a pretty profound transfer of wealth... It's just not a linear system so long as we have fiat currencies it is possible for ALL players in the market to lose money without someone "making" it at their expense...
p.p.s as for naked shorts - the rhetoric drives me mad as the only people capable of accomplishing a "naked short" are the brokers and banks with a "red-phone" to the Fed... You and I cannot do it... Our brokers/clearing houses simply won't allow it...
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Predictions:
I'm not a gambling man, but I would bet a case of .45 ACP on the following legislation occurring within the next 8 years:
-we see AWB 2.0 which includes so called "high-capacity" magazines. Existing "assault weapons" and high cap mags are grandfathered in. The ban will be permanent, but will exempt law enforcement and military personnel in good standing.
-firearm transfers between private citizens is made illegal closing the "gun show loophole".
-more MA style firearms registration required throughout the country
I don't believe a confiscation could/would occur in this country after Heller.
I'm not a gambling man, but I would bet a case of .45 ACP on the following legislation occurring within the next 8 years:
-we see AWB 2.0 which includes so called "high-capacity" magazines. Existing "assault weapons" and high cap mags are grandfathered in. The ban will be permanent, but will exempt law enforcement and military personnel in good standing.
-firearm transfers between private citizens is made illegal closing the "gun show loophole".
-more MA style firearms registration required throughout the country
I don't believe a confiscation could/would occur in this country after Heller.
Yeah that's pretty much how I see it going down too - just a continued gradual erosion like we've been seeing over the past several decades.
Also expect more BS like what we have in MA with the AG further restricting what we can buy via asinine "consumer safety" regulations that discourages manufacturers and adds to the cost of guns.
The AG (well the state because you cannot likely sue the AG directly) needs to be sued for harming the consumer by threatening nuisance lawsuits for lawful behavior and violating preemptive Federal legislation on interstate commerce...
We need to apply their tools of the trade and start writing some laws from the bench that go our direction...
I am hoping that we can define a line in the sand by virtue of Obama scaring some people into paying attention...
Do any of you think they can ban AR's based on name?
Do you think that if they have a new AWB that the rest of the country will be like Mass?
Or, do you think they will ban even "post-ban" type AR's?
I also wonder if they can ban guns like Glocks because they can hold large capacity mags.
Do you think that if they have a new AWB that the rest of the country will be like Mass?
Or, do you think they will ban even "post-ban" type AR's?
I also wonder if they can ban guns like Glocks because they can hold large capacity mags.
