ATF Proposed Rule Change for Frames and Receivers

[42!]

AR-15 Rifle Kit, 16” Stainless Barrel 12” Quad Rail, With 80% Lower

An AR-15 Rifle Kit For The DIY Gunsmith This rifle kit is perfect for starting your DIY AR-15 rifle build project.

thundertactical.com

These guys are still selling complete rifle kits with an 80% lower

No jig, tools, or instructions. So fits the new rule.

 

[Fritz the Cat]

No jig, tools, or instructions. So fits the new rule.

Ah, gotcha. I preemptively bought a few more lowers last week. I guess i didn't need to. But Thunder Tactical was running a sale.
Unfortunately i lost my jig in a boating accident so now i just have some odd shaped paper weights. .

 

[pastera]

I only picked up a couple of lowers
Now the place I buy from is completely out of stock
If they come available I'll try to pick up another five or ten along with lower parts kits to build them out.
Don't have enough ARs to outfit the family plus have spares so want to get to that point before the ATF discovers another level of retard previously undiscovered.

 

[DispositionMatrix]

No jig, tools, or instructions. So fits the new rule.

Also, that jig and the tools would only apply to the lower since only the lower can comprise a firearm per GCA'68. The upper, buffer assembly, stock, and barrel might as well be pinball machine parts in this context. They have no bearing on whether the lower is a non-firearm or has been milled and drilled to create a firearm per the GCA'68 definition.

 

[CatSnoutSoup]

AR-15 Rifle Kit, 16” Stainless Barrel 12” Quad Rail, With 80% Lower

An AR-15 Rifle Kit For The DIY Gunsmith This rifle kit is perfect for starting your DIY AR-15 rifle build project.

thundertactical.com

These guys are still selling complete rifle kits with an 80% lower

Are they though? Or are they taking people's money and saying we will ship them if we can? Because when I click on that link just out of interest the following message pops up at the bottom of the screen...

Our shipping department is working around the clock to get your orders out as soon as possible. In the event ATF’s rule indefinitely prohibits us from shipping your product, we will issue full refunds.

If I was interest (I'm not) my questions would be numerous, not knowing how to parse that statement's meaning, or when it was written in relation to a rule that went into effect 8/24.

Just say'n.

Long story short, it seems the ATF's effort to sow confusion and doubt through ambiguity has thus far been a smashing success for them.

 

[rep308]

No jig, tools, or instructions. So fits the new rule.

Stuff in stock too

 

[Fritz the Cat]

Are they though? Or are they taking people's money and saying we will ship them if we can? Because when I click on that link just out of interest the following message pops up at the bottom of the screen...



If I was interest (I'm not) my questions would be numerous, not knowing how to parse that statement's meaning, or when it was written in relation to a rule that went into effect 8/24.

Just say'n.

Long story short, it seems the ATF's effort to sow confusion and doubt through ambiguity has thus far been a smashing success for them.

I've bought a lot of parts from them over the last few years and they have been a great company to deal with. Two weeks ago they sent an email saying "flash sale! Buy parts now before the new ATF rules go ingo effect!" or something to that effect.
As others have said, i think they probably have lawyers trying to figure out what they can and can't do now.

 

[Fritz the Cat]

Are they though? Or are they taking people's money and saying we will ship them if we can? Because when I click on that link just out of interest the following message pops up at the bottom of the screen...



If I was interest (I'm not) my questions would be numerous, not knowing how to parse that statement's meaning, or when it was written in relation to a rule that went into effect 8/24.

Just say'n.

Long story short, it seems the ATF's effort to sow confusion and doubt through ambiguity has thus far been a smashing success for them.

So i just put another 5 pack of lowers in my cart and went all the way to checkout with them and i didn't get any warning message.
I am glad i bought them on sale because i saved over $100 off this current price.

 

[Fritz the Cat]

It's likely the term "complete rifle kit" that ATF is going after?
Every part i try is not a problem, just the complete kit.

 

[Cap'n Mike]

No jig, tools, or instructions. So fits the new rule.

Jigs Archives

80 percent lower jigs for sale at Thunder Tactical. Visit our website and browse through our selections of Jigs. Fast shipping provided on all orders!

thundertactical.com

They removed Jigs completely from the site it seems.

 

[42!]

Jigs Archives

80 percent lower jigs for sale at Thunder Tactical. Visit our website and browse through our selections of Jigs. Fast shipping provided on all orders!

thundertactical.com

They removed Jigs completely from the site it seems.

We're going to see "separate" companies that sell just tools and jigs. It'll just be a coincident that they both ship out of the same address.

 

[KBCraig]

Every potentially receiver-shaped thing is now a firearm unless granted an exception.

The written rule and the ATF's own video say this is not true. How can you honestly post this as fact.

So, give us the two sentence explanation of where the line is. And then be prepared to defend that if ATF decides you've crossed it.

 

[42!]

So, give us the two sentence explanation of where the line is. And then be prepared to defend that if ATF decides you've crossed it.

It's there and it's in the video, it's not two sentences, no one said it was simple. I guess it's just more than some can understand, being more than two sentences. They dumbed it down in the video, maybe that will help.

You want proof, read it and watch the video.

But you won't say where you got this,

Every potentially receiver-shaped thing is now a firearm unless granted an exception.

Where is the statement that backs up this assertion?

 

[cathouse01]

OK, right from slide 15 of the ATF's presentation on the new rule:

• Finally, the rule provides that prior determinations that a partially complete, disassembled, or nonfunctional frame or receiver, including parts kits, was not, or did not include, a frame or receiver prior to April 26, 2022, the publication of rule are not valid or authoritative.

What that means to me that is you can no longer sell an 80% receiver the was determined to NOT be a receiver if it was determined to be so prior to April 26, 2022.

Further, on slide 14 I would claim that the ATF is saying that the mag-well and the buffer tube mount are "critical interior areas" that can not be "indexed, machined, or formed". This would eliminate current 80% lowers with the mag-well broached and buffer tube mount machined out and threaded.

 

[Fritz the Cat]

So i checked a couple of other machining businesses that I bought parts from in the past and they all had jigs as well. None are selling jugs any longer except 5D Tactical. They still have jigs and lowers for sale.

 

[Packofqtips]

I did notice 80% arms is still listing lowers on their site. Most sites that I've bought from in the past have either removed them or listed out of stock.

 

[42!]

OK, right from slide 15 of the ATF's presentation on the new rule:

• Finally, the rule provides that prior determinations that a partially complete, disassembled, or nonfunctional frame or receiver, including parts kits, was not, or did not include, a frame or receiver prior to April 26, 2022, the publication of rule are not valid or authoritative.

What that means to me that is you can no longer sell an 80% receiver the was determined to NOT be a receiver if it was determined to be so prior to April 26, 2022.

Further, on slide 14 I would claim that the ATF is saying that the mag-well and the buffer tube mount are "critical interior areas" that can not be "indexed, machined, or formed". This would eliminate current 80% lowers with the mag-well broached and buffer tube mount machined out and threaded.

The quote you show means the opposite of what you think, it's an exemption from the rule for anything determined not to be a receiver prior to the rule. Although I would prefer a quote from the rule and not the presentation as the rule is the rule and the presentation is, technically, not the rule.

While an older publication this is still listed on the ATF site as an explanation of what an 80% is Are “80%” or “unfinished” receivers illegal? | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives

From the actual rule referenced in the presentation, available at 27 CFR § 478.12 | eRegulations

Below are the 2 examples they provide in the rule that determine if a partiall completed item is a receiver or is not. You will note that the only difference is the inclusion of jigs, tools, etc. and NOT any real difference in the partially completed item (80% AR). What the sellers are doing by removing these items from their kits adds to this in terpritation.

1. EXAMPLE 1 TO PARAGRAPH (C)—FRAME OR RECEIVER:A frame or receiver parts kit containing a partially complete or disassembled billet or blank of a frame or receiver that is sold, distributed, or possessed with a compatible jig or template is a frame or receiver, as a person with online instructions and common hand tools may readily complete or assemble the frame or receiver parts to function as a frame or receiver.

1. EXAMPLE 4 TO PARAGRAPH (C)—NOT A RECEIVER:A billet or blank of an AR-15 variant receiver without critical interior areas having been indexed, machined, or formed that is not sold, distributed, or possessed with instructions, jigs, templates, equipment, or tools such that it may readily be completed is not a receiver.

 

[cathouse01]

The quote you show means the opposite of what you think, it's an exemption from the rule for anything determined not to be a receiver prior to the rule. Although I would prefer a quote from the rule and not the presentation as the rule is the rule and the presentation is, technically, not the rule.

While an older publication this is still listed on the ATF site as an explanation of what an 80% is Are “80%” or “unfinished” receivers illegal? | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives

From the actual rule referenced in the presentation, available at 27 CFR § 478.12 | eRegulations

Below are the 2 examples they provide in the rule that determine if a partiall completed item is a receiver or is not. You will note that the only difference is the inclusion of jigs, tools, etc. and NOT any real difference in the partially completed item (80% AR). What the sellers are doing by removing these items from their kits adds to this in terpritation.

My interpretation of example 4 (your second example) is that it explicitly adds the "without critical interior areas having been indexed, machined, or formed". I think they are adding both the mag-well and the buffer tube mount point to their definition of critical areas.

But what I think doesn't matter. For the longest time I shared your thought that they were only going after 80% lowers sold with a jig and instructions. I no longer believe that are being that fair and are going to go after all "traditional" 80% frames/receivers. I hope I'm wrong, but I've lost what little faith I had in the ATF since the Senate approved Dettelbach to head of the agency.

 

[KBCraig]

It's there and it's in the video, it's not two sentences, no one said it was simple. I guess it's just more than some can understand, being more than two sentences. They dumbed it down in the video, maybe that will help.

You want proof, read it and watch the video.

But you won't say where you got this,

Where is the statement that backs up this assertion?

You prove it with your reply.

It's not simple, and it's not just "more than some can understand", since many people well-versed in firearms law are having trouble figuring it out.

ATF and the federal judge will not accept your "dumbed down video" as good faith defense.

I'm sure you think you understand the new Rule. Until your understanding is tested in court, you have no more basis for your statements, than I do for mine.

 

[DispositionMatrix]

The quote you show means the opposite of what you think, it's an exemption from the rule for anything determined not to be a receiver prior to the rule. Although I would prefer a quote from the rule and not the presentation as the rule is the rule and the presentation is, technically, not the rule.

While an older publication this is still listed on the ATF site as an explanation of what an 80% is Are “80%” or “unfinished” receivers illegal? | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives

From the actual rule referenced in the presentation, available at 27 CFR § 478.12 | eRegulations

Below are the 2 examples they provide in the rule that determine if a partiall completed item is a receiver or is not. You will note that the only difference is the inclusion of jigs, tools, etc. and NOT any real difference in the partially completed item (80% AR). What the sellers are doing by removing these items from their kits adds to this in terpritation.

"...or possessed with..." looks like a big problem. If someone possesses tools and jigs and then later acquires an unfinished frame or a blank or flat, then the latter is most definitely "possessed with" the former.

 

[teamRR]

"...or possessed with..." looks like a big problem. If someone possesses tools and jigs and then later acquires an unfinished frame or a blank or flat, then the latter is most definitely "possessed with" the former.

It's not a crime to posses a firearm though.

Really that only applies to sellers/selling somehow or if say a prohibited person had 80% frames, which I think they are saying would now be a firearm if xyz was also possessed.

 

[alan226]

Here's a dumb question. Are jigs all universally sized or do you need a separate jig for each brand 80% you buy.

In other works, can you buy one jig and use it for multiple branded 80% lowers from different companies?

 

[Stape]

Here's a dumb question. Are jigs all universally sized or do you need a separate jig for each brand 80% you buy.

In other works, can you buy one jig and use it for multiple branded 80% lowers from different companies?

yes. They're universal. Probably have trouble with one of those skull themed mag-well lowers or whatnot.

 

[DispositionMatrix]

It's not a crime to posses a firearm though.

Really that only applies to sellers/selling somehow or if say a prohibited person had 80% frames, which I think they are saying would now be a firearm if xyz was also possessed.

But things that were not firearms per GCA'68 should not be declared firearms now due to a rule devised by the ATF. No good will come of this.

 

[teamRR]

But things that were not firearms per GCA'68 should not be declared firearms now due to a rule devised by the ATF. No good will come of this.

I'm not saying any good comes of it, just that I don't see anything in there making a combination of those items illegal to own, unless you can't own a gun to begin with.

 

[Dench]

You prove it with your reply.

It's not simple, and it's not just "more than some can understand", since many people well-versed in firearms law are having trouble figuring it out.

ATF and the federal judge will not accept your "dumbed down video" as good faith defense.

I'm sure you think you understand the new Rule. Until your understanding is tested in court, you have no more basis for your statements, than I do for mine.

We should ask Atilla for clarification.

 

[MFSP101]

yes. They're universal. Probably have trouble with one of those skull themed mag-well lowers or whatnot.

Except the hand gun ones. I believe all those are for specific models.

 

[groundscrapers]

It is now obvious that the ATF intends to end what we have traditionally known as "80% lowers". What we currently call 80% receivers they are now saying are actually receivers, since they can be "readily" converted using simple hand tools. The example billet of a "not readily completed" lower shows you'd need to be able to machine out and thread the buffer tube mount, something that requires more than just a drill press or a router. The question is: will the courts step in and issue an injunction? Those still selling traditional 80% lowers direct to the consumer without serialization and going through an FFL are either hoping for an injunction or angling to be a test case to have one issued.

The only thing that is obvious is how they intend on misleading people to believe exactly what you say in your comment. They presented only an extreme case of what they consider to be a non firearm however the blank frame inself, as supplied before, can remain unserialized as long as they don't have jigs, tooling, templates, etc... mated with them.

 

[groundscrapers]

Here's a dumb question. Are jigs all universally sized or do you need a separate jig for each brand 80% you buy.

In other works, can you buy one jig and use it for multiple branded 80% lowers from different companies?

depends what jig we are talking about. With pistols they are unique to each frame, with molded ar's its the same deal. Where you only see commonality is when working with forgings.

 

[alan226]

depends what jig we are talking about. With pistols they are unique to each frame, with molded ar's its the same deal. Where you only see commonality is when working with forgings.

So a forged AR lower jig should be universal unless it's a funky one off design?

I don't want to get into stuff like P80 pistols, but I might take a shot at an AR...