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ATF Proposed Rule Change for Frames and Receivers
- Thread starter rep308
- Start date
I mentioned that earlier, and I agree, it'd be a nightmare. Not to mention many of us have stocked a lifetime of reciever sets - so now we'd be racing to ban proof our barrel stocks. And there's a worse component to that I won't even post, don't want to stir up any ideas with unwelcome guests that read our stuff.
groundscrapers
NES Member
M249 will feed from a mil spec ar mag below where its fed with a belt. Ares Shrike would dual feed as well.
groundscrapers
NES Member
They may do it for export regardless.
![[rofl]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/013.gif "ROFL [rofl]")
groundscrapers
NES Member
P80 80% Pistol Frame Kits This was just updated to remove jigs
groundscrapers
NES Member
I claim nothing to its ability to feed well lmao.The M249 can accept the magazine, but whether it will actually feed properly is another story.
What does “everything” mean in this context? Is it just the receiver that would be serialized were it completely milled and isn’t (wasn’t) for an 80% lower, or does it include AR upper receivers and pistol slides and bolts and stuff?
I read somewhere that AR upper receivers will need to be serialized, but I can’t find it now.
Earlier when I checked, these guys or another familiar/similar place had a banner up saying based on the new rule, they were working to become compliant, and any orders would be refunded. You could order them but it would be a fail. Now, every place who sells glock-ish 80% stuff is showing everything out of stock or stating they are awaiting the rule to be challenged.
To your point though - you can order AR15 80% stuff, in stock now, as far as I can tell, and all indications are multiple places will ship them directly.
Possibly, some letter of the rule makes that type of reciever exempt, and not the pistols, but that is news to me.
.
Lowers. Uppers are still not considered firearms. But all lowers are now. I never got into the 80% pistol stuff but i know that whatever was considered an unfinished firearm is now a firearm. The parts to complete them are still available but the parts that were unfinshed to avoid the ffl are not. I haven't even seen anyone selling 80% lowers anymore even with shipping to a ffl. At this point why would you? If a stripped lower and a 80% lower both need to be serialized why would you get an 80% anymore
DispositionMatrix
NES Member
At least one store is selling incomplete lowers and has the following note on its site:
Many of it's competitors are not selling them or have them listed as out of stock.
It would be telling if the attorneys for these sellers are coming up with different conclusions.
I’m pretty sure it came out recently in one of the lawsuits that the ATF said the case was moot because as long as there isn’t a jig with the sale, then it’s not considered a firearm. Which would make 80% arms frames good to go as long as they separate the jigs and frames. But that hasn’t been put out by the ATF, beyond them mentioning it to the judge.
I'll tell you what... with this post Trump FBI and ATF I am really starting to get Al Capone vibes from the government. They are making so many things illegal in serious ways that essentially everyone is guilty and can be put away at any time when they find the need.
I suspect there are very few people on NES who aren't in violation of a 4473 when they have a legal controlled substance prescription. That is one hell of a trap. Now we're onto making blocks of metal into "firearms." Or shapes of metal that arent cut free are "machine gun parts." Such a f***ing scam.
headednorth
NES Member
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It’s been that way for a long time. There are so many laws on the books that anybody can be prosecuted after even just cursory surveillance. We all break laws every single day without even realizing and it’s designed that way. Things have just gotten more blatant in the past couple years.
additionalmc
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I remember reading that the average person un-intentionally breaks like 10 laws a day without even realizing it.
safetyfirst2125
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Communism is built and enforced this way. Since everyone breaks laws, it’s easy to prosecute and destroy your political enemies. Do nothing for those on your team.
You'd think a judge would still question that logic as requiring further review.
Even if the ATF attempted to say, well for this reciever type they can sell the blanks, jigs, and parts, they just must be packaged separately or maybe shipped separately - it just doesn't make any sense.
I can't think of any law (although this is a rule) like that except perhaps as it applies to illegal manufacturing, ie stuff to make meth, stuff to make bombs, where they might try and prosecute someone for pre-crime if too many ingredients/components are too close in proximity. Or a safety minded rule like blasting caps and explosives, requiring some separation in transport. Manufacturing a lower yourself remains legal, nor are the components *actually* dangerous to ship together - so no such logic applies.
Mesatchornug
NES Member
You might be thinking of Three Felonies A Day
Three Felonies A Day: How the Feds Target the Innocent: Harvey Silverglate, Alan M. Dershowitz: 9781594035227: Amazon.com: Books
Three Felonies A Day: How the Feds Target the Innocent [Harvey Silverglate, Alan M. Dershowitz] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. Three Felonies A Day: How the Feds Target the Innocent
a.co
I've seen this in multiple places by the ATF and on the ATF video that was posted, so ya it's all over the place. Those saying all 80% will now have to go through an FFL are just screaming the sky is falling without taking the time to know what is going on.
It all hinges on the definition of "readily". It would seem that the extra effort of not getting the jig and tooling in the same order as the 80% fails the readily test, so you can order the 80% and it's not a firearm (yet).
Yes this is retarded. And I expect they will try to redefine "readily" again later.
But let's try to maintain some truth, you can still order your 80%.
71montess
NES Member
They are using the Massachusetts model.
cathouse01
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Two things to note on the new rule.
First, they are identifying the buy-build-shoot kits are actual firearms.
Second, specifically for AR receivers, they are saying:
It is now obvious that the ATF intends to end what we have traditionally known as "80% lowers". What we currently call 80% receivers they are now saying are actually receivers, since they can be "readily" converted using simple hand tools. The example billet of a "not readily completed" lower shows you'd need to be able to machine out and thread the buffer tube mount, something that requires more than just a drill press or a router. The question is: will the courts step in and issue an injunction? Those still selling traditional 80% lowers direct to the consumer without serialization and going through an FFL are either hoping for an injunction or angling to be a test case to have one issued.
First, they are identifying the buy-build-shoot kits are actual firearms.
Second, specifically for AR receivers, they are saying:
And in their example they show not only is the fire control left un-machined, so is the mag-well and the buffer tube mount. They also add the term "possessed", so that if it is "possessed with instructions, jigs, templates, equipment, or tools" is is a receiver and needs to be serialized and go through an FFL and a 4473.
It is now obvious that the ATF intends to end what we have traditionally known as "80% lowers". What we currently call 80% receivers they are now saying are actually receivers, since they can be "readily" converted using simple hand tools. The example billet of a "not readily completed" lower shows you'd need to be able to machine out and thread the buffer tube mount, something that requires more than just a drill press or a router. The question is: will the courts step in and issue an injunction? Those still selling traditional 80% lowers direct to the consumer without serialization and going through an FFL are either hoping for an injunction or angling to be a test case to have one issued.
KBCraig
NES Member
Yes, the Mass model: "Unless we specifically declare it legal, it is illegal."
Every potentially receiver-shaped thing is now a firearm unless granted an exception. That's not "the sky is falling". That's waking up while camping, looking up at the stars, and wondering what happened to your tent.
A picture, a single example, is not the rule. You have to go by what they actually say, because that is what you need to fight in court. Adding wild interpretations that are not supported by the rule will only get the whole thing thrown out. Getting everyone to go hyperbolic and screaming about things that are beyond the rule, which is bad enough on it's own, only prevents a real challenge and gets the real issue buried under BS.
Every one of those selling 80%s now without jugs, has had their lawyers digging through the rule. And they all concluded that selling the same 80% this way is GtG. There will be no injunction. If you're right the raids will start NOW......... I'm guessing not.
The written rule and the ATF's own video say this is not true. How can you honestly post this as fact.
Let's be clear. I think the new rules are BS. And we need to fight them. In order to win that fight we need to know what we are fighting. Challenging something with clearly incorrect information can only lead to defeat. Propagating incorrect information for the sake of creating hysteria is the road to defeat. It's a hard enough fight as is, without the BS.
If I'm wrong it will be obvious. They lost the injunction, so they have the courts ok to proceed with enforcement. The raids would be starting right away. We will all know by next week. If I'm wrong I will owe you all a great apology and will need to look at my conclusions more critically. If I'm right, the next move is yours..... what will you do?
AR-15 Rifle Kit, 16” Stainless Barrel 12” Quad Rail, With 80% Lower
An AR-15 Rifle Kit For The DIY Gunsmith This rifle kit is perfect for starting your DIY AR-15 rifle build project.
thundertactical.com
These guys are still selling complete rifle kits with an 80% lower
