ATF changes rules affecting commercial ammunition manufacturers

enbloc said:
Thus, wetted nitrocellulose containing greater than 12.6 percent nitrogen may be lawfully shipped, transported, or received
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nitrocellulose wetted with water not less than 25 percent by mass is not subject to regulation under the federal explosives laws.
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Sounds like simple math to me. Keep the nitrogen percentage at 12.5% max. and the H2o at 25% min. and you are within the EO.
Dry the nitrocellulose to correct level and add nitrogen to the correct level.

Not a scientist, but I'm sure the folks at IMR, Hodgdon, Accurate Arms, Winchester and others are...
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That's what the were doing before this new ruling. It seems now that wetting no longer provides for an exemption:

"However, because nitrocellulose retains its explosive characteristics when the water or alcohol is removed, the wetted nitrocellulose remains a nitrocellulose explosive subject to all controls of the federal explosives laws."​

In other words they've closed the "wetting loophole" which will make transporting and storing the raw materials needed to produce smokeless powder much more expensive.

"Industry members have relied on the exemption for wetted nitrocellulose for many years and are aware of no accidental detonations or diversion of this product into illicit channels. Consequently, it is unclear why ATF believed it necessary to change its policy and, more importantly, why ATF announced the change in a newsletter article with no advance notice to industry."​

It's very clear actually.
 
jasons said:
That's what the were doing before this new ruling. It seems now that wetting no longer provides for an exemption:
"However, because nitrocellulose retains its explosive characteristics when the water or alcohol is removed, the wetted nitrocellulose remains a nitrocellulose explosive subject to all controls of the federal explosives laws."​

In other words they've closed the "wetting loophole" which will make transporting and storing the raw materials needed to produce smokeless powder much more expensive.
"Industry members have relied on the exemption for wetted nitrocellulose for many years and are aware of no accidental detonations or diversion of this product into illicit channels. Consequently, it is unclear why ATF believed it necessary to change its policy and, more importantly, why ATF announced the change in a newsletter article with no advance notice to industry."​

It's very clear actually.
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It's still not completely clear. The ATF appears to have only redefined nitrocellulose containing 12.6% or greater nitrogen to be a high explosive. There is still wiggle room. See the ATF newsletter: https://www.atf.gov/file/106536/download
 
additionalmc said:
for now, I wouldn't worry, but if hilary gets elected, who knows? She'll do whatever she can to backdoor buttf**k every single gun control measure possible. Look at the stupid things now like itar trying to making gunsmiths pay a yearly fee....that will be the least of our worries. She does need to repeal the second amendment, only make those living under it as miserable as possible, and that she will do.

But yes, prices will increase, a little before the election, and even more if she is crowned. if you really need the ammo, buy it anywhere you can.
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She'll have SCOTUS, they'll be able to repeal the 2nd by simply redefining it to be meaningless.
 
are they attempting to make manufacturers degrade powder performance to where commercial ammo will become less powerful per volume and also much dirtier?
 
Pete85 said:
It's not just you and your wife. The U.S. birth rate has been declining for years.

ETA: It really shouldn't be that surprising though. It's not just birth rates that are dropping, the marriage rate has plummeted over the past few decades. In the 1960s, 65% of people between age 18 and 32 were married. Today only about 26% of people in that age range are married. People in their prime child bearing age aren't getting married, and as a result aren't having kids*. How's that going to work out in another 20 years or so?

* Obviously people can have kids out of wedlock, and while there has been an increase in that, it's not proportional to the decreased marriage rate.
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Don't worry, there will be 12 or 14 "Little Mohameds" to take the place of the 2 Mary and Johns you didn't have.



additionalmc said:
If/When that happens, and the whole country is under a "Maura Healey" style decree, then the sh!t really hits the fan. That will be interesting to say the least
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Don't forget, with Homeland Security running elections, or not.
 
browncoat said:
It's still not completely clear. The ATF appears to have only redefined nitrocellulose containing 12.6% or greater nitrogen to be a high explosive. There is still wiggle room. See the ATF newsletter: https://www.atf.gov/file/106536/download
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Yeah but it's the 12.8+ stuff (also known as insoluble nitrocellulose) that goes into our powder. (Which is why the manufacturers are upset about the ruling....)

That's not really the point anyway. If there's never been an issue shipping or storing wetted nitrocellulose then what is the legitimate reason for reclassifying it? The clear answer is that there isn't one - the only reason is to drive powder prices up and / or manufacturers out of business.
 
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well, this is good for my credit card company, as long as civilization still exists and I actually have to pay on the debt.
 
So, we have another governmental fiat aimed against the shooting sports. Why aren't prices through the roof? Why is there nothing mentioned by the NRA?
OR is this another Chicken Little, Sky is Falling type thing?

Since this was an immediate policy, why hasn't the cost of powder and ammunition soared? Almost certainly it just got a little more expensive to do business but since prices haven't risen dramatically I'm going to guess that powder manufacturers are complying without breaking stride. Another incremental step but apparently not that big of a deal. This decision has been in place and no run on powder? Pain in the ass but no worse than that.
 
I found 2 companies so far
Filo chemical with offices here in MA and import and storage in NJ. Then Nobel NC.
I'm might gander that either the manufactures where all knowing of these changes and or given time to up grade storage facilities.
As posted above smokeless powder is in the 12.8 % range and all the other products ( you look around a little and weted nitroselulose is in a boat load of products) are in the 12% or less.
I see this as little to do with safety and more of a slow control of eliminating sources of publicly available ammo and components. Eventually reducing all ammo manufacturing to government facilities like LC currently leased out by ATK.
 
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We need to see what the ammo manufacturers say. If it's just an inconvenience, not so terrible (but still can't be allowed to stand); if it renders the manufacture of ammo prohibitively expensive or impossible in some cases - we have a Constitutional Question at that point.
 
Since the edict is already in effect and there is no hue and cry it stands to reason this is just an inconvenience. Most marketers never let harsh regulations stand in the way of increasing prices.
 
Steve Marshall said:
Since the edict is already in effect and there is no hue and cry it stands to reason this is just an inconvenience. Most marketers never let harsh regulations stand in the way of increasing prices.
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I guess that depends on how much it increases prices. At some point the market will no longer bear continued price increases and manufacturers will stop supplying powder all together. Best case scenario powder (and loaded ammo) becomes somewhat more expensive, worst case it becomes so un-affordable that demand dries up.
 
I doubt this will have a significant long term impact on ammo prices, it just means that manufacturers will be forced to move their operations overseas. No need to panic until ammo importation rules also get a sudden reinterpretation.
 
Jim85IROC said:
I doubt this will have a significant long term impact on ammo prices, it just means that manufacturers will be forced to move their operations overseas. No need to panic until ammo importation rules also get a sudden reinterpretation.
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Bite your tongue. We don't want to give our overlords any more bad ideas.
 
Jim85IROC said:
I doubt this will have a significant long term impact on ammo prices, it just means that manufacturers will be forced to move their operations overseas. No need to panic until ammo importation rules also get a sudden reinterpretation.
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The ATF already regulates and licenses the importation of smokeless powder, it wouldn't take a whole lot for them to reinterpret the rules. I'm sure that's already part of the plan.
 
Steve Marshall said:
You tinfoil hat guys amuse me.

IF THERE WAS A SIGNIFICANT COST TO MANUFACTURERS, YOU WOULD ALREADY SEE INCREASES ACROSS THE BOARD.
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You're right, nothing to worry about. The government would never suddenly reinterpret long-standing existing rules, which have been in place for decades with no ill effects, in order to squeeze legal gun owners. The government loves legal gun owners and they're totally on our side. Not sure what I was thinking.
 
Steve Marshall said:
You tinfoil hat guys amuse me.

IF THERE WAS A SIGNIFICANT COST TO MANUFACTURERS, YOU WOULD ALREADY SEE INCREASES ACROSS THE BOARD.
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I don't know what's worse, the true tinfoilers or the people who use the term recklessly. Given how many conspiracy theories have been proven out in recent years I'm inclined to say the latter is much worse.
 
Not saying there isn't plenty of truth to this ATF Ruling (or projected fallout there from) but I'm a little surprised I haven't seen anything regarding this on the NSSF website yet. Maybe they're just trying to get the facts straight before making a statement but it would seem to me to be a prime subject for them to address. They've had plenty to say about Zero's "manufacturing' vs gunsmithing interpretation via ITAR.
 
jasons said:
I guess that depends on how much it increases prices. At some point the market will no longer bear continued price increases and manufacturers will stop supplying powder all together. Best case scenario powder (and loaded ammo) becomes somewhat more expensive, worst case it becomes so un-affordable that demand dries up.
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This is precisely how alternatives are engineered and eventually produced. If the demand is there then supply will find a way. It just takes time.
 
No change in bulk powder prices so far this summer

I suspect that for companies that already deal with such large quantities of powder that they order it "wetted", this is but a drop in the bucket for their costs and regulatory oversight.
Horrible said:
This is new news, but I have actually started seeing prices go up from just last week.
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I've been watching the prices of several powders at Brownell's since the end of June. Most still show in stock, and all the powders I'm interested in (multiple manufacturers) are listed at the same price as two months ago.
 
Whoa! Slow down a bit!

Did you guys read the actual ATF newsletter article?

Ammoland, and most of you guys, are seriously over-reacting.

First, ATF doesn't control the rules for transporting nitrocellulose: The dept of Transportation does. It says this right in the newsletter article. There is no change in how DOT treats nitrocellulose.

Second, the only change here affects how wetted nitrocellulose is stored. And, the ATF newsletter explicitly says they recognize the "diminished likelihood of wetted nitrocellulose exploding" and thus will consider variances for not storing it in explosive magazines.

To quote the newsletter:

However, based upon thediminished likelihood of wetted nitrocellulose exploding,ATF will consider variance requests to store the wettedmaterial under an alternative arrangement.

I don't see any big deal here. And that's why there hasn't been any major fuss over this.
 

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