Army make moves towards new carbine

[Mike S]

Army makes moves toward new carbine

Staff report
Posted : Monday Mar 22, 2010 6:41:58 EDT

The Army is now following not one but two paths to give soldiers a better weapon than the current M4 carbine.

The Army launched an effort to find a new weapon in November 2008, a year after the M4 finished last in an Army reliability test involving three other carbines.

Officials hoped to start a competition for a new carbine last fall.

Army weapons officials said March 2 that the service still intends to go after a new carbine.

The requirement, or blueprint, for the new weapon, however is still awaiting approval from the Defense Department, said Col. Doug Tamilio, the head of Project Manager for Soldier Weapons.

“People have asked me how long it will be in the joint staff,” Tamilio said. “I don’t know when this will go through.”

Tamilio added that it could be late summer before the Joint Requirement Oversight Council makes a decision.

In the meantime, the Army is making progress on an effort to make significant improvements to the 500,000 M4s in the inventory.

Army weapons officials have asked the small arms industry “can you take the current M4 and make it more reliable, more durable, easier to maintain and more accurate,” Tamilio said. M4 modifications could include improvements to carbine parts, such as the bolt and bolt carrier assembly, upper receiver and barrel assembly, gas operating system, trigger group assembly and the rail system.

Improved M4s, however, will still be chambered for 5.56mm round. The next step in the M4 improvement program calls for the Army to release a draft request for proposal in the coming weeks. Gun makers will then have 30 days to come up with initial plans. The Army will then hold an industry day to allow gun makers to ask questions. The Army will then release an official request for proposal in the April-May time frame. Participating companies will have 90 to 120 days to submit “no-kidding pieces of equipment,” for the Army to evaluate, Tamilio said.

As for the effort to replace the M4, Army weapons officials said the service has the roughly $10 million it needs to open a competition but can’t set a date until the Joint Regiments Oversight Council approves the requirement for a new carbine.

The requirement has to go through one more short review by Army staff. Then it goes to JROC, where it could sit for “four to five months; that’s the maximum time usually,” Tamilio said “If it is non-controversial, it will go through very quickly.”

 

[crazymjb]

Meh, I'll believe it when I see it. Weren't they supposed to be using XM8s now?

Mike

 

[JohnFH]

Army weapons officials have asked the small arms industry “can you take the current M4 and make it more reliable, more durable, easier to maintain and more accurate,”

Try asking here, half the people on this board can and proabably have done it already.

 

[DickWanner]

I doubt anything is gonna happen anytime soon. I wonder how long it took the Army to phase out the M14 when the M16 was brought into service. Now there's still 700,000 M14s sitting in a warehouse somewhere. If the M4 gets replaced, they'll replace M16s at training and reserve units and the M16s will all go into a warehouse somewhere.

 

[ochmude]

What ever happened to that OICW program I heard about in high school? The thing with the airburst grenades with a fuze that was set by a laser rangefinder and whatnot. Or Land Warrior, have they finished that yet?

 

[vellnueve]

The M14 was replaced pretty fast when the M16 came out - and many of them were destroyed in the 90s, so there aren't THAT many left - many of those that are left are back in use or available as parts for those being used.

The M4s won't replace M16s as training rifles because they aren't rifles - I doubt they'll be wasted, they'll probably get handed down to noncombat units or something.

 

[vellnueve]

What ever happened to that OICW program I heard about in high school? The thing with the airburst grenades with a fuze that was set by a laser rangefinder and whatnot. Or Land Warrior, have they finished that yet?

The XM8 and MP7 both spawned from that program IIRC. The airburst component has been tested sparingly in combat as a separate weapons system and is still under development.

 

[drgrant]

AGNTSA. What's this, like the 48th time in the past 10 years they've had a trial for a new rifle?

-Mike

 

[pipmaster1971]

Isn't it about time the army had ray-guns? At least that's what I gleaned from "Space 1999"

 

[crazymjb]

I doubt anything is gonna happen anytime soon. I wonder how long it took the Army to phase out the M14 when the M16 was brought into service. Now there's still 700,000 M14s sitting in a warehouse somewhere. If the M4 gets replaced, they'll replace M16s at training and reserve units and the M16s will all go into a warehouse somewhere.

I'm a reservist and we just got brand new out of the box M4s with rail systems, PEQs and ACOGs. Granted, I've seen the army wondering around with the old A2s.

Mike

 

[usmcs/s]

mike thanks for the good feed back i like mine ok. when you need more help call in the abrams.

 

[Turbocharged]

The impression I get from the article is that the Army has no interest in looking at other calibers.
Not that the 5.56/.223 doesn't work, but a lot of various cartridges have launched since the 5.56 was chosen. Might be worthwhile for them to look at other options...

 

[pipmaster1971]

Maybe I'm mistaken but I'd heard that the 5.56 mm NATO round is fine when fighting your regular soldier (who typically stops fighting when he's hit). But the worry is that it doesn't work so great on your average Jihadist pumped full of khat or some other narcotic.

 

[DickWanner]

I'm a reservist and we just got brand new out of the box M4s with rail systems, PEQs and ACOGs. Granted, I've seen the army wondering around with the old A2s.

Mike

I know that combat units in the Guard have M4s, but usually everyone else is stuck with M16s unless they're getting ready to deploy. My transportation unit had M16s in the armory until they were getting ready to deploy.

 

[ochmude]

Our whole task force (artillery converted to MP's) got new M16A4's for our deployment. Only folks that got M4's were E-7 though E-9 and O-3 though O-5. All of 3rd Marines (grunt battalion) had M16A4's as well.

 

[RichM]

We deployed with A2s with an M68 CCO on a gooseneck hanging in front of the carry handle.

 

[ochmude]

We deployed with A2s with an M68 CCO on a gooseneck hanging in front of the carry handle.

Now THAT is what I call high speed. Did you have to duct tape maglites to the forend too ?

 

[cekim]

Are all these guns really necessary anyways? Can't we put more money into diplomacy?

 

[Andy in NH]

All of 3rd Marines (grunt battalion) had M16A4's as well.

The plan in 2d Mar Div was for the M4s to replace most of the M9s in the grunt battalions. The idea was that Marines who were normally pistol bearers would benefit from the increased capabilities of the M4. Of course, it didn't happen that way. Once the M4s were signed for and put in the armory, the Bn COs, S-4 Officers, and the Bn Gunners all stalled at relinquishing the pistols until Division finally gave up. (Where were the pistols going to go anyway - DRMO?) We deployed with a full T/E of M16A4s, M4s, and M9s.

Procurement of M4s might not have reached Hawaii by the time you deployed.

 

[RichM]

Now THAT is what I call high speed. Did you have to duct tape maglites to the forend too ?

Here's how it attached. I'll check to see if I have any pictures of it mounted...

As far as other mounting points, I had a rail-mount that attached around my front sight post...

 

[M1911]

Replacement for the M4? Don't hold your breath.

 

[DickWanner]

Here's how it attached. I'll check to see if I have any pictures of it mounted...

As far as other mounting points, I had a rail-mount that attached around my front sight post...

We used that setup on our last qual before the unit got their M4s for deployment. Can't say I was a fan, the sight was too far away for my liking.

 

[OCB]

What ever happened to that OICW program I heard about in high school? The thing with the airburst grenades with a fuze that was set by a laser rangefinder and whatnot. Or Land Warrior, have they finished that yet?

I worked on aspects of the Objective Force Warrior program, which had a name changed to Future Force Warrior, which then got rolled up into Land Warrior. At one point maybe five years ago, I was doing a study on wired vs wireless sensors for physiological monitoring and had to talk to the radio guys to see what sort of data interfaces would be available on the JTRS cluster 5. The guy sounded sort of puzzled and told me that the radio didn't even exist as a specification document yet. In other words, I wouldn't hold your breath for the whole system to meet the deployment target. They have, however, been rolling out subsystems (on a limited basis) that have shown promise during the testing phase. I was also interested to see the soldier chasis system show up in the Transformers movie...

 

[RFWAVELENGTH]

The M14 was replaced pretty fast when the M16 came out - and many of them were destroyed in the 90s, so there aren't THAT many left - many of those that are left are back in use or available as parts for those being used.

The M4s won't replace M16s as training rifles because they aren't rifles - I doubt they'll be wasted, they'll probably get handed down to noncombat units or something.

A lot of the remaining M14s can be found in the small-arms lockers of Navy ships.

 

[ochmude]

I worked on aspects of the Objective Force Warrior program, which had a name changed to Future Force Warrior, which then got rolled up into Land Warrior. At one point maybe five years ago, I was doing a study on wired vs wireless sensors for physiological monitoring and had to talk to the radio guys to see what sort of data interfaces would be available on the JTRS cluster 5. The guy sounded sort of puzzled and told me that the radio didn't even exist as a specification document yet. In other words, I wouldn't hold your breath for the whole system to meet the deployment target. They have, however, been rolling out subsystems (on a limited basis) that have shown promise during the testing phase. I was also interested to see the soldier chasis system show up in the Transformers movie...

Good info. I used to hear about that program all the time on the Discovery Channel, then it seemed to just disappear.

 

[crazymjb]

Its an interesting concept but with the amount of trouble we have with just getting comm to work right I feel for them trying to get a data link to work properly.

Mike

 

[wolf223]

i've been playing soldier since 1995 between the Army and Army National Guard.

the M4 ain't going anywhere no time soon. we have been "fielding" and "testing" new weapons since I remember (15 years).