Considering Fish didn't know dude was carrying the screwdriver in his back pocket, this is a classic example of why people should carry OC. That extra step gives the righteous shooter an extra layer of protection in court.
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Arizona Self-Defense Murder Conviction / Ammo
- Thread starter maee
- Start date
Please, with sugar on top, would someone please actually READ the entire Fish case and not blame his conviction on a caliber? Can we let this tired old canard die already? ![[grin]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/041.gif "Grin [grin]")
There were a lot of reasons why Fish ended up getting convicted... the fact that he was carrying a 10mm, if it could be considered a reason at all, is at the absolute end of that list. If he had done the same thing with a .25 ACP, (one of the most anemic handgun cartridges on the face of the earth) he'd still be sent off to prison, at least in that court
with that prosecutor and jury, IMHO.
IMO the guy was justified but everything that could have gone wrong with this case went wrong. There was only one witness, Fish, and he wasn't that wonderful, unfortunately. Throw in a crap jury, a prosecutor hell bent on getting a conviction, put possibly bad counsel or bad procedural on top (not sure if fish talked to the cops before counsel or not, and how this influenced the case) and you end up with a man in jail that more than likely should not be.
-Mike
There were a lot of reasons why Fish ended up getting convicted... the fact that he was carrying a 10mm, if it could be considered a reason at all, is at the absolute end of that list. If he had done the same thing with a .25 ACP, (one of the most anemic handgun cartridges on the face of the earth) he'd still be sent off to prison, at least in that court
with that prosecutor and jury, IMHO.
IMO the guy was justified but everything that could have gone wrong with this case went wrong. There was only one witness, Fish, and he wasn't that wonderful, unfortunately. Throw in a crap jury, a prosecutor hell bent on getting a conviction, put possibly bad counsel or bad procedural on top (not sure if fish talked to the cops before counsel or not, and how this influenced the case) and you end up with a man in jail that more than likely should not be.
-Mike
Titan
Banned
Thanks for calling me on this. I should have said underprepared or something along those lines.
I followed the FISH case in detail (yes, I've read the transcript) and DO understand there was a great deal more to his conviction than the caliber of the gun. I was responding to a specific post regarding the issue of the caliber and why the jury might have considered 10mm to have been unusual.
The answer was simply that it WAS larger than standard issue for law enforcement and military at the time. That's a fact. Not the only fact or the KEY fact, but A FACTOR in the trial.
Like most defense attorneys, Fish's attorney suffered from a lack of funds and lacked the ability to prepare as well as he would have liked in every possible area.
I completely agree - the good guy doesn't always win.
.
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M1911
Moderator
Never mind. Lack of reading comprehension on my part. I agree with the statement above. It was a factor. How large a factor is open to debate.
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I think he's saying that it wasn't then and isn't now but the "isn't now part" isn't clear because the context seems to imply that a 10mm is actually SI for some department now. Which I am pretty sure is not the case. I could be wrong.
Anyway, that's my interpretation.
I could not agree more...I realize it's an extra step in self defense, but a $19.99 can of OC and the training to go with it are cheap insurance. I carry:
- handgun
- oc
- knife
- cell phone
- fists
I think part of training, carrying and just age combined with instinct, is the ability to assess a threat. A blast with OC may or may not have stopped the threat, but it may have led to a person still being alive, or at least a credible trail of restraint before deadly force. I'm not suggesting that this person was rightly convicted, but think he could have taken steps to keep him out of a murder trial in the first place....
Titan
Banned
I was trying to say that Fish's 10mm was obviously larger than 9mm, which was 'standard' for many law enforcement agencies and the military at the time. Both law enforcement and the military, then and now, still use the 9mm as a 'standard' sidearm even though they also use .45acp and the 40cal S&W (ex. the military's use of the Baretta 9mm sidearm).
At the time of Fish's trial, some on the jury perceived the caliber of Fish's gun as larger than 'standard issue' for law enforcement and the military.
It was one issue of many contributing to his conviction.
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